Terror attack London

[BruceVC]

I think it should be fine if any country in the EU doesnt want to accept any Muslim refugee, its much better if its voluntary and not forced on a country like Poland

 

I cant think of any ME country that would welcome Polish religious people in like the EU has done 

 

So lets not force something unnecessary ?

[Rosbjerg]

Check out what Muslim communities have to say in polls about the west and western culture:

- being homosexual is unacceptable way of life;

- sharia law should be above the national law;

- women and men should be segregated and women should cover themselves;

- honor killings are ok;

- killing Jews is justified;

- killing homosexuals is acceptable;

- killing in the name of Mohamed is justified;

- etc.

 

Those are not the views of Muslims in Iran, those are the views of majority Muslims living in the West. Those are the views of your neighbor or his family. Those are not the views of radical Muslims, this are the views of normal majority Muslims.

They don't want to integrate, they want to create w Muslim only world. 

 

The majority of muslims in the west see it as acceptable to kill women, children and people of different faiths? wow... Do you have the numbers to back that up? Because statistical analysis here in Denmark does certainly not support this claim, at all.

 

In fact, the only place I ever see these claims (unsubstantiated mind you) are on extreme right-wing websites. Let me guess, that's where you read it too right?

 

 

Not to say there haven't been problems with Autocratic Islamic views, there certainly has and is.. Much in the same way many 'moderate' Christians (especially Catholics) share the view that religion trumps secular law. 

 

And in that vein, it's interesting hearing this from a Polish citizen, how do you feel about your current government citing that religious doctrine should supersede secular law? Diminishing women's rights and so on.. and does that sound familiar to you?

 

Perhaps the reason you hate the radical muslims so much, is that they remind you so much of yourself? They just call it Sharia instead of 'Christian moral imperative'.

 

But yes I see all of this as proof that religion does not belong in politics, not Islam, not Christianity and not even Buddhism.

[Elerond]

Check out what Muslim communities have to say in polls about the west and western culture:

 

 

 

- being homosexual is unacceptable way of life;

- sharia law should be above the national law;

- women and men should be segregated and women should cover themselves;

- honor killings are ok;

- killing Jews is justified;

- killing homosexuals is acceptable;

- killing in the name of Mohamed is justified;

- etc.

 

 

By looking how Muslim members of our parliament have voted / campaigned on these issues

 

All the Muslims in our parliament campaigned for equal marriage and adoption rights for homosexuals (Interesting note our "Christian" members of parliament agree with sentiment that homosexuality is unacceptable way of life)

All the Muslims in our parliament oppose idea that sharia law is above our national law. (Interesting note, our "Christian" members of parliament constantly quote Bible to over rule our national laws)

All the Muslims in our parliament oppose idea of segregation of men and women or that women should cover themselves if they don't want (Interesting note some of our "Christian" members of parliament think that women and men should not mix and they are meant to do different things in the life, like women should be in home taking care of the children)

All the Muslims in our parliament oppose honor killings and are most active members in campaigning for harsher punishments for those that do such things  

All the Muslims in our parliament campaign for stricter hate speech laws and speak against hate speak and violence against Jews. (Interesting note some of the our "Christian" members of parliament campaign for deportation of Muslims, Jews, Polish, Russian and all the other people they don't like)

All the Muslims in our parliament are strictly against all sort discrimination towards homosexual let alone supporting killing them (Interesting note there has been "Christian" members of our parliament that have said that our constitution should have exception that allows killing sodomites)

All the Muslims in our parliament oppose all sort of killing regardless of reasoning.  (Killing in name of Jesus and Finland is seen acceptable thing to do in some circumstances by quite lot of people)

 

 

Of course they come from most liberal segments of our Muslim population

[Meshugger]

The core message of salvation in christianity is personal regret and asking forgiveness for your sins.

The core message of salvation in Islam is to kill unbelievers in the name of islam and your sins are forgiven.

 

I do need some of that regret right now because all i feel is pure unadultared hatred. I am far from the only one. 

[Rosbjerg]

The core message of salvation in christianity is personal regret and asking forgiveness for your sins.

The core message of salvation in Islam is to kill unbelievers in the name of islam and your sins are forgiven.

 

I do need some of that regret right now because all i feel is pure unadultared hatred. I am far from the only one. 

 

Several Jewish groups of the 1910s, 20s and 30s, inspired by communism, in opposition to aggressive conservative governments of the time, annoyed with their minority treatment and the lack of progress from the world powers, committed a minor string of terrorists attacks in GB, France and Germany - bombings, stabbings, killings.. But coupled with the financial distress of the time, their actions quickly became mainstream news.

 

It created a very lucrative target for politicians of the day, who saw that the actions of radical leftwing Jews could be used to even target nationalists right wing conservatives - and their hold on the financial institutes.. As long as they simply shared religion and outwards ethnicity. It created a common enemy, from Scotland to Vienna, someone which the disenfranchised poor (always the target of both left, right, black and white terrorism) could blame for all their problems.

 

Until someone took it too far..

 

Godwin's law often prevent this comparison, but it is extremely relevant, because it shows just how powerful scapegoatism is as a political tool.

 

 

 

You should be angry and you're certainly allowed to be hateful - but take that anger out on those who are the cause of this - and that's not your neighbor. It's not even ISIS.. Your hate is wasted on the symptom and they're yet another sad symptom of Wahhabism.. And Wahhabism is funded, fueled and exported by European and American money and our dangerous reliance on the petrodollar economy. 

 

As long as we keep bombing the middle east AND fund the people in Saudia Arabia training these terrorist, then its never ever gonna end. We've had 15! years of war in that region, with ever decreasing civil rights, more police, more control and more bombs.. are we safer?

 

Do you feel safer? No? then why do you think getting more of this will make it better?

[HoonDing]

"The core message of salvation in christianity is personal regret and asking forgiveness for your sins.

The core message of salvation in Islam is to kill unbelievers in the name of islam and your sins are forgiven."

 

fake news

[Blarghagh]

Some fleas show up and some people think the answer is to burn the cat.

[Gorgon]

****ing lunatics

 

Too soon ?

 

Anyway, ****ing lunatics. 

[Rosbjerg]

Sharp_one, spamming this many websites - half of them of questionable origin - with the other half merely chosen for their headlines, with clear indication that you have done 0% of critical research as to who produced said news. Try actually reading those articles you found on Denmark and what they actually say and not just the headline - and try checking out who did the surveys and where they were made.

 

I mean a wordpress site called "muslimsstatistics" ? and even a damn Reddit comment...

 

It underlines and illustrates a very serious trend in modern media. That people are simply scouring the web to support the narrative they've been building up over the years. Both left and right..

 

 

Although your second source the PEW institute is interesting (and the only one that has actually done real any research to back their claims)

But did you actually read their conclusions? Or did you just assume they said what you wanted them to say?

 

Here's the abstract

"Overwhelming percentages of Muslims in many countries want Islamic law (sharia) to be the official law of the land, according to a worldwide survey by the Pew Research Center. But many supporters of sharia say it should apply only to their country’s Muslim population."

 

And this is interesting, because this is supported by many other published papers - and definitely something we should be discussing. The paper goes on to say that for the majority of muslims the word Sharia could be replaced with 'religious morality'. Something that should be very recognizable to western citizens, as almost all conservative political parties today say that ethical and moral core of western countries are based on Christian religious doctrine and morality.

 

Now to a secular person as myself, this is no different that hearing a muslim say he wants the laws that govern him to be based on his religious moral imperative.

 

It's a trend that has been on the rise since the beginning of this century, the uncomfortable intermix between politics and religion, just as we are beginning to see more openly in South + Eastern Europe and America.

 

 

For a good dose of sanity on the question of juridical ethics - go watch Star Trek The Next Generation, Season 4 episode 21 - Drumhead.

[Chilloutman]

I am not sure where you guys all are from but please try to understand that US does have huge advantage when dealing with muslim minority because of extremely strict visa policies. Most muslims in US are the top of muslim population, meanwhile in EU its completely different story...

[Ben No.3]

Just some quote.

 

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Socialist.

 

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

 

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Jew.

 

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

Besides, we have to acknowledge that things in muslim countries were not always the way they are now. Though I dislike it's style, this presentation should showcase it:

Edited June 5, 2017 by Ben No.3

[redneckdevil]

Everything that the extremist Muslims are doing, Christians have done it before them. The crusades, witch hunts, trying to take over countries thru politics and/or might (Catholics). As an open minded southern Baptist, I will say that most Christians believe gods word is over man's law, deciding what women can wear (women in dresses and not in "man's" clothing such as jeans and shorts. We have blown up abortion clinics, etc. The list goes on. Right now, what is stopping evolution from being taught in schools? Yep.

Very anti-gay. Even used to promote racism, such as Africans are decedent's of Cain and are cursed. Etc etc. I'd dare say that Christians would have the same results as the Muslims.

 

Soooo what I think should be done to help ease our European brothers and sisters is a few things we Americans have learned the hard way.

 

1. Separation of church and state. Religion is a personal choice that should not be forced on anyone, so all laws should not be influenced at ALL by religion. No Sharia's Law, no creationism, no ban on same sex marriages etc etc.

2. Integration. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. U move to a land with different culture, respect it even if things go against religion. Do not cater to religion. Religion is a personal choice and people ha e freedom to pursue it, but do not have the right to influence others. Meaning work should not cater to religious beliefs or practices. Should not impede or stop someone, but at same time should not change policies etc for it. Also if it was a ****ty place they came from, they bringing the same **** and end result unless u nip it in the butt.

3. Time for both Right and Left to get off Christianity and Muslims ****. Right need to stop enforcing and pushing Christianity values as the "right" way and the Left needs to take the same stance it does with Muslims that it does with Christianity. Right now both sides are pushing both down our throats. The left has learned from the right in pushing it subtly as well with same tactics of sob stories and "must have compassion!" bs the right has for years.

 

I'm saying this for Americans too, STOP making religion bigger than it needs to be. It should go back to behind closed doors and churches. Quit making people "accept" and make people deal with their consequences.

[Ben No.3]

 

Sharp_one, spamming this many websites

Again... Volo was right. Don't bother with sources because they will always attack the sites. Even now you attack the link from reddit regardless of the fact it just contains dozens of links to other sites on the sole basis it's a reddit link.

 

Complete waste of time when you only read sources that support your biased POV and disregard any source that tries to look at issue even slightly different.

 

P.S. Still waiting on backing your claims about Polish government.

And you take an completely unbiased look? Gimme a break. You cherry picked one small piece of his argument and tried to discredit it, somehow thinking that also discredits everything else he said. Would you kindly please spend your time developing an actual response rather than senselessly google for headlines that seem to support your simplistic view. I find it amusing and terrifying at the same time what you demand. Weren't you the one asking to deport the families of Islamist for three generations?

You are an idiot if you belive that any of this will actually help you. "The refugees are funded with our money" what on Earth makes you belive that you would see only a fraction of that money of the refugees weren't funded? Were your schools richer before the refugees came? Was public transport better before the refugees came? Was the police better before the refugees came? Was just one sort of state funded service underfunded because of the refugees?

"But the Muslims want to destroy our way of living, they want to introduce sharia law, they want to build a worldwide caliphate" let me tell you a tale, my paranoid friend. Right next to Frankfurt, barley a walk away, is the town of Offendbach. In the past, Offenbach had severe problems with crime, especially drug crime, which caused housing prices to drop, which in turn caused an overload of immigrants in the past decade or so, especially from Northern Africa and the Middle East, to move there. By now, 60% of all people living there are immigrants. Is Offenbach a Muslim hell full of rape and public stonings composed of no go zones? No, Offenbach in fact has turn into a thriving city, it has recovered from drug crime to a very large degree. Living quality has greatly increased in the past years. The immigrants are provided with individual councling, specific counsellors are assigned to them which allows for bonding. The economic situation is also on the up, for example an Turkish family founded one of the by now biggest bakeries in the region (so big they are by now for example the suppliers of the entire Frankfurt airport). What about Sharia law? The mayor is Horst Schneider, member of the SPD, declared secularists. The candidate with the second most votes was of the CDU, the Christian party. For a town composed of 60% immigrants from the Muslim world that sounds pretty un-sharialy, no?

I hear people from your camp often say "western society is committing suicide". Yes. Yes we are.

We ourselves are killing everything we stand for if we allow the return of a society segregated by race, religion, nationality or political beliefs. I pity you. You are standing there, fighting shadows, and you don't see the swords you drive into your own stomach. And who will be there for your funeral, if everyone is busy dying of their own wounds?

 

The saddest part is that you and the Islamists are so similar at heart. There simply is no difference between Deus Vult and Allahu Akbar.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Ben No.3

[Chilloutman]

Everything that the extremist Muslims are doing, Christians have done it before them. The crusades, witch hunts, trying to take over countries thru politics and/or might (Catholics). As an open minded southern Baptist, I will say that most Christians believe gods word is over man's law, deciding what women can wear (women in dresses and not in "man's" clothing such as jeans and shorts. We have blown up abortion clinics, etc. The list goes on. Right now, what is stopping evolution from being taught in schools? Yep.

Very anti-gay. Even used to promote racism, such as Africans are decedent's of Cain and are cursed. Etc etc. I'd dare say that Christians would have the same results as the Muslims.

 

Soooo what I think should be done to help ease our European brothers and sisters is a few things we Americans have learned the hard way.

 

1. Separation of church and state. Religion is a personal choice that should not be forced on anyone, so all laws should not be influenced at ALL by religion. No Sharia's Law, no creationism, no ban on same sex marriages etc etc.

2. Integration. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. U move to a land with different culture, respect it even if things go against religion. Do not cater to religion. Religion is a personal choice and people ha e freedom to pursue it, but do not have the right to influence others. Meaning work should not cater to religious beliefs or practices. Should not impede or stop someone, but at same time should not change policies etc for it. Also if it was a ****ty place they came from, they bringing the same **** and end result unless u nip it in the butt.

3. Time for both Right and Left to get off Christianity and Muslims ****. Right need to stop enforcing and pushing Christianity values as the "right" way and the Left needs to take the same stance it does with Muslims that it does with Christianity. Right now both sides are pushing both down our throats. The left has learned from the right in pushing it subtly as well with same tactics of sob stories and "must have compassion!" bs the right has for years.

 

I'm saying this for Americans too, STOP making religion bigger than it needs to be. It should go back to behind closed doors and churches. Quit making people "accept" and make people deal with their consequences.

not like all of this s already law in EU... but then you have multicultural and humanist policies and politics pushing against it. I am pretty sure we have much more separated christian church from state than US

[Ben No.3]

 

Everything that the extremist Muslims are doing, Christians have done it before them. The crusades, witch hunts, trying to take over countries thru politics and/or might (Catholics). As an open minded southern Baptist, I will say that most Christians believe gods word is over man's law, deciding what women can wear (women in dresses and not in "man's" clothing such as jeans and shorts. We have blown up abortion clinics, etc. The list goes on. Right now, what is stopping evolution from being taught in schools? Yep.Very anti-gay. Even used to promote racism, such as Africans are decedent's of Cain and are cursed. Etc etc. I'd dare say that Christians would have the same results as the Muslims.Soooo what I think should be done to help ease our European brothers and sisters is a few things we Americans have learned the hard way.1. Separation of church and state. Religion is a personal choice that should not be forced on anyone, so all laws should not be influenced at ALL by religion. No Sharia's Law, no creationism, no ban on same sex marriages etc etc.2. Integration. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. U move to a land with different culture, respect it even if things go against religion. Do not cater to religion. Religion is a personal choice and people ha e freedom to pursue it, but do not have the right to influence others. Meaning work should not cater to religious beliefs or practices. Should not impede or stop someone, but at same time should not change policies etc for it. Also if it was a ****ty place they came from, they bringing the same **** and end result unless u nip it in the butt.3. Time for both Right and Left to get off Christianity and Muslims ****. Right need to stop enforcing and pushing Christianity values as the "right" way and the Left needs to take the same stance it does with Muslims that it does with Christianity. Right now both sides are pushing both down our throats. The left has learned from the right in pushing it subtly as well with same tactics of sob stories and "must have compassion!" bs the right has for years.I'm saying this for Americans too, STOP making religion bigger than it needs to be. It should go back to behind closed doors and churches. Quit making people "accept" and make people deal with their consequences.

not like all of this s already law in EU... but then you have multicultural and humanist policies and politics pushing against it. I am pretty sure we have much more separated christian church from state than US

pretends on where you are. Gays can't marry around here, and in France you can't show religious symbols in any public building including schools (which I find a great idea). I'm also not sure how it is in Eastern Europe.

[Malcador]

 

Sharp_one, spamming this many websites

Again... Volo was right. Don't bother with sources because they will always attack the sites. Even now you attack the link from reddit regardless of the fact it just contains dozens of links to other sites on the sole basis it's a reddit link.

 

Complete waste of time when you only read sources that support your biased POV and disregard any source that tries to look at issue even slightly different.

 

P.S. Still waiting on backing your claims about Polish government.

 

This is amusing. To be fair to Ros, I'd ignore any link to Reddit for anything given that site is laden with easily led trash for the most part.

[Malcador]

If there's any humour to be found related to a terrorist attack..

 

https://www.joe.co.uk/news/the-sun-criticised-by-arsenal-fans-for-their-front-page-headline-following-london-terror-attack-128300

 

So shocking that the Sun would point out he's wearing a Gunners shirt

[Elerond]

 

By looking how Muslim members of our parliament have voted / campaigned on these issues

 

All the Muslims in our parliament campaigned for equal marriage and adoption rights for homosexuals (Interesting note our "Christian" members of parliament agree with sentiment that homosexuality is unacceptable way of life)

All the Muslims in our parliament oppose idea that sharia law is above our national law. (Interesting note, our "Christian" members of parliament constantly quote Bible to over rule our national laws)

All the Muslims in our parliament oppose idea of segregation of men and women or that women should cover themselves if they don't want (Interesting note some of our "Christian" members of parliament think that women and men should not mix and they are meant to do different things in the life, like women should be in home taking care of the children)

All the Muslims in our parliament oppose honor killings and are most active members in campaigning for harsher punishments for those that do such things  

All the Muslims in our parliament campaign for stricter hate speech laws and speak against hate speak and violence against Jews. (Interesting note some of the our "Christian" members of parliament campaign for deportation of Muslims, Jews, Polish, Russian and all the other people they don't like)

All the Muslims in our parliament are strictly against all sort discrimination towards homosexual let alone supporting killing them (Interesting note there has been "Christian" members of our parliament that have said that our constitution should have exception that allows killing sodomites)

All the Muslims in our parliament oppose all sort of killing regardless of reasoning.  (Killing in name of Jesus and Finland is seen acceptable thing to do in some circumstances by quite lot of people)

 

Of course they come from most liberal segments of our Muslim population

 

Nice try:

 

http://madworldnews.com/finland-muslim-refugees-condition/

 

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2015/09/26/finland-sucks-say-muslim-illegal-aliens-we-are-going-back-to-sweden/

 

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2016/08/26/finland-after-15-muslim-invaders-brutally-beat-up-a-young-finnish-man-with-metal-bars-the-finns-fight-back/

 

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7559/finland-migrant-crisis

 

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201701131049566630-finland-islam-radicalism/

 

 

If those links are only rebuttal or proof of dissent then I would come conclusion that things here are in excellent condition

 

 

Sadly reality is bit more complicated, as I concluded in my original post

 

[Malcador]

Which only proves you have nothing to say and you only post in discussions to start a ruckus. Grow up and come back when you have something to add to discussion on adult level.

And the hits keep on coming, I guess mirrors are at a premium in the world today. Gromnir pretty much had the measure of the thread early on, so might as well amuse myself with it.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Malcador

[Rosbjerg]

Again... Volo was right. Don't bother with sources because they will always attack the sites. Even now you attack the link from reddit regardless of the fact it just contains dozens of links to other sites on the sole basis it's a reddit link.

 

Complete waste of time when you only read sources that support your biased POV and disregard any source that tries to look at issue even slightly different.

 

P.S. Still waiting on backing your claims about Polish government.

Well still waiting for you to back your claims, but sure give me an hour - also I see you don't disagree with my critizism, just the fact that you were critizised.

 

Very telling any debate should be baded on facts, which requires source sceptisicm. I demand nothing less from you. If you however want in depth analysis, provide me with quality sources and not quantity crap.

 

1 billion flies are still sitting on ****

[Chilloutman]

 

Again... Volo was right. Don't bother with sources because they will always attack the sites. Even now you attack the link from reddit regardless of the fact it just contains dozens of links to other sites on the sole basis it's a reddit link.

 

Complete waste of time when you only read sources that support your biased POV and disregard any source that tries to look at issue even slightly different.

 

P.S. Still waiting on backing your claims about Polish government.

Well still waiting for you to back your claims, but sure give me an hour - also I see you don't disagree with my critizism, just the fact that you were critizised.

 

Very telling any debate should be baded on facts, which requires source sceptisicm. I demand nothing less from you. If you however want in depth analysis, provide me with quality sources and not quantity crap.

 

1 billion flies are still sitting on ****

 

not to pick sides, but you often provide link and consider it fact, what sharp is doing is showing you the other side?

[redneckdevil]

Im very skeptical of the news, but as many have said when enough are saying the same....

Also the Reddit one, thank you Sharpe. That has a **** LOAD lol. Weither it's viable or not, I'll take a look at them. Granted I have my mind made up and put more blame on media and politics thru their inaction, exaggerating, silence, etc more so than the actual terrorists. Blame needs to be put on them and all who condone/support it, but I think the "lasting" damage is moreso on politics and media influencing our thoughts and safety to push an agenda/more slavewages/more war/etc.

[Elerond]

 

If those links are only rebuttal or proof of dissent then I would come conclusion that things here are in excellent condition

 

 

Sadly reality is bit more complicated, as I concluded in my original post

 

If you say so. I disagree.

 

 

Do you even know what you are disagreeing with?

[Rosbjerg]

not to pick sides, but you often provide link and consider it fact, what sharp is doing is showing you the other side?

 

I have no problem with people believing their opinion is fact, as I have stated - I have a problem with people giving me links to very clearly biased news sites and saying that it's sufficient to prove their claim.

 

I don't posts links to the Guardian or Breibart as proof, because it most certainly isn't. I cite researchers, books written on the subject or actual papers published.

And as I said, half the links he provided elaborated on completely different points that the headline of the article, often meant to be clickbait - if I spend a few minutes actually reading his sources and find multiple errors and inconsistencies, then that puts the entire argument into doubt, no matter how valid the concern.

 

The only factual link he provided that provided data and detailed how they reached their conclusion, almost outright contradicted him... So he's even undermining his own points.

 

I mean - is that the standard we're upholding here?

 

 

As for Polish conservatives and Christian morality

"Regarding morality, I think that law depends on an axiology. There is a positivist attitude that ethics comes from law, that is is, as it were, prior ... that parliament is the root of morality. I do not share this opinion. For me the root of morality is God" - grzeskowiak

The Struggle for Constitutionalism in Poland - Chatper: Christian morality in polish law page 198. by M. Brzezinski

 

Interviews with Polish conservatives regarding morality and law.

[Ben No.3]

Sharp_one, if you justify the crusades with Muslim invasions of Jerusalem; you also have to justify modern terrorism with western intervention in the ME. Logica vult. Are you sure you want to go there?