Attributes

[smjjames]

Have the devs made any statements about the attribute system? Or will it remain like PoE 1?

 

In the video for update 40, the attributes have the same names and it looks like they work the same or similar to the way it does in PoE1. Always subject to change of course.

[1varangian]

I just started PoE again and my main gripe with the attributes is that they don't feel relevant.

 

If you compare 10 Might and 16 Might, your average damage goes roughly up from 13 to 15. You hardly notice any difference at all in gameplay. Your 16 Might character doesn't feel strong compared to the 10 Might character. They can use all the same weapons and armor. Some hard requirements would definitely help create that feeling of prowess that is sorely lacking.

 

Same with every other attribute. The bonuses you get are too marginal to make you feel a difference in gameplay. Putting a lot of points in Intelligence only gets you a 1 second increase in some duration that won't be noticeable or significant in any way. You can't make a character that would feel particularily strong, weak, fast, slow, evasive or clumsy. Every possible attribute spread plays the same, with only minimal, almost invisible tweaks here and there.

 

The bonuses should at least be doubled for the impact to start showing in actual gameplay.

 

Getting more attribute points on level ups is always fun too but PoE doesn't let you do that. I hope PoE 2 will.

Edited October 10, 2017 by 1varangian

[af_Skum]

I just started PoE again and my main gripe with the attributes is that they don't feel relevant.

 

If you compare 10 Might and 16 Might, your average damage goes roughly up from 13 to 15. You hardly notice any difference at all in gameplay. Your 16 Might character doesn't feel strong compared to the 10 Might character. They can use all the same weapons and armor. Some hard requirements would definitely help create that feeling of prowess that is sorely lacking.

 

Same with every other attribute. The bonuses you get are too marginal to make you feel a difference in gameplay. Putting a lot of points in Intelligence only gets you a 1 second increase in some duration that won't be noticeable or significant in any way. You can't make a character that would feel particularily strong, weak, fast, slow, evasive or clumsy. Every possible attribute spread plays the same, with only minimal, almost invisible tweaks here and there.

 

The bonuses should at least be doubled for the impact to start showing in actual gameplay.

 

Getting more attribute points on level ups is always fun too but PoE doesn't let you do that. I hope PoE 2 will.

I agree with you to a certain extent, but there are so many other parameters in the game so it's fine imo. I have to disagree with you on Intelligence though. Having 20 compared to 10 makes a BIG difference, both in efficiency and quality of life. Regarding the other stats, except Constitution, they actually may matter much more or much less than you would think but it is VERY unintuitive MIGHT on a Rogue for example doesnt matter that much, whilst on other classes matters more than it would seem.

 

I was blown away when reading a guide on GameFAQs, linked below, learning how things worked. There are also some excellent forum posts on the matter. Attack speed in particular is really crazy and I hope it changes for Deadfire.

 

https://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/687020-pillars-of-eternity/faqs/72035

[Wormerine]

Getting more attribute points on level ups is always fun too but PoE doesn't let you do that. I hope PoE 2 will.

I much prefer if you stick with the starting attributes.

 

Yeah, overall I like the design behind attributes but they do feel a bit like a smokescreen. I am not so sure if that really is the case but it feels that way. I have no idea what could be the solution. The mandatory attributes for certain classes aren’t fun as well. The problem is that all the fun stuff that could be driven by attributes are defined by class anyway. Your mage will never be tanky because his class defines him so no matter how high his constitution is. Maybe going classless is the way.

[1varangian]

To clarify I also like the starting attributes to define your character so the level up increases should be small in comparison.

 

They were trying to not have any dump stats but right now Constitution, Perception and Resolve do feel very much like dump stats. All spellcasters use Might and Intelligence. I feel a Priest should have high Resolve first while being intelligent shouldn't be that important for them. It's odd that Resolve plays no part in magic at all. Attributes providing tiny % to existing numeric values is also a bit boring and I'd like it much better if high Int gave you some new options instead.

[Sedrefilos]

Everything feels dump only if you're thinking about combat, which is the case with the most I see

Keep in mind, stats play a key role in conversations and scripted interactions so if you're heading more for the roleplay (as I do) then stats do matter. Yeah some more than other, true (especially resolve which one's mentioning as a dump stat), but considering they're going to up the roleplay in Deadfire, it's good that stats matter in both combat and conversations/interactions.

 

Also key stats for each class = bad, lame, outdated, boring, restraining, don't put stats anyway if that's gonna be the case, bad, boring... did I mentioned bad and boring?

Edited October 11, 2017 by Sedrefilos

[1varangian]

Combat is very much roleplaying. If your character doesn't feel how you envisioned them an RPG has failed to deliver. And in PoE the amount of time spent in combat is exponentially more than the odd scripted ability check in dialogue.

 

It's ok to set difficulty to easy if you don't enjoy combat that much but saying combat isn't roleplaying is just false.

Edited October 11, 2017 by 1varangian

[Wormerine]

Everything feels dump only if you're thinking about combat, which is the case with the most I see

Keep in mind, stats play a key role in conversations and scripted interactions so if you're heading more for the roleplay (as I do) then stats do matter. Yeah some more than other, true (especially resolve which one's mentioning as a dump stat), but considering they're going to up the roleplay in Deadfire, it's good that stats matter in both combat and conversations/interactions.

 

Also key stats for each class = bad, lame, outdated, boring, restraining, don't put stats anyway if that's gonna be the case, bad, boring... did I mentioned bad and boring?

Yes, that is why overall I like the base principles of the system. When creating a character instead of diving into the systems or searching online for solid builds I create character I will want to be in this playthrough. However, it would be nice to see a more tangible impact in combat. Ideally you want character creating system which will interact with all aspects of the game (combat/scripted interactions/exploration/conversations etc.). It is possible that if scripted interaction will be expanded and your ability to interact with enviroment will be more complex than even a smaller inpact in combat won't matter that much. 

[Nail]

I like PoE attribute system, due the utility of each attribute and impact on each game class.

Thus different builds are possible.

[Climhazzard]

I like PoE attribute system, due the utility of each attribute and impact on each game class.

Thus different builds are possible.

 

 

This is how I feel about it too. 

 

I don't really see any stat as dumpable myself, but it all depends on your build.  The effects of any one stat might seem relatively minor, until you make a build that focuses on a stat.  Like a high might moon godlike monk with veteran's recovery (the might increases your dmg and self healing from moon godlike and veteran's recov).

 

As for might not making sense, I consider might something akin to spiritual power, able to make fighters stronger or wizards more powerful.  Would be nice if scripted interactions reflected this a bit better, but I can live with physically strong wizards I guess, lol.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Climhazzard

[darkling.lithely]

I always build fairly balanced characters. I'll have an attribute or two that are above average but nothing extreme.

 

Now what would be cool is if my high dex buckswasher (aka rogue/fighter) actually appeared to be a very agile person as opposed to a brute.

Edited October 11, 2017 by darkling.lithely

[Valci]

The system has it's problems I agree but is workable. Might for magical damage and healing doesn't make the must sense it's true... But it's much easier so have all damage dependant in only one stat for design purposes. Aside from that you more or less get around the strength requirement restriction issue for equipment in the sense that almost anyone well pick up at least average might due to it's importance... All in all I think they chose ease of game design rather then rp value. Is it ideal? Probably not... But it works well enough. I don't see it as something to get too wound up about...

[Nail]

According to my observation, many who tend to think about role playing perspective share an erroneous opinion of Constitution, substituting it with Might.

My wizard is like 28 might and only 8 constitution - how would this look like?

I guess just very sinewy guy, but without huge muscles, what is kinda weird, still that's only my opinion...

[Sedrefilos]

According to my observation, many who tend to think about role playing perspective share an erroneous opinion of Constitution, substituting it with Might.

My wizard is like 28 might and only 8 constitution - how would this look like?

I guess just very sinewy guy, but without huge muscles, what is kinda weird, still that's only my opinion...

It'll look like Bruce Lee.

[Varana]

He has a lot of raw power but is kind of a glass cannon. He gets tired easily, has a weak stomach and several allergies, his bones break more often, he needs his 9 hours of beauty sleep to fully function. :D

[Lamppost in Winter]

Honestly my main problem with the attribute system is still Accuracy being the deciding stat for every type of attack. At the risk of over-complicating things, I would prefer something like Might attacking Fortitude, Resolve/Intellect attacking Will, etc. Still wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for magic, but then making perfect sense has never really been the focus of this system. 

[MortyTheGobbo]

Honestly, if I were to design a system with a traditional stat spread, I'd fold Strength and Constitution together. Neither has legs to stand on separately. Strength, in particular, is very narrow in most systems that use it. Which is precisely why Pillars uses Might. Folding Strength and Constitution wouldn't work with its approach of every stat applying to the same thing regardless of "power source", as it were, either.

[Sedrefilos]

Honestly, if I were to design a system with a traditional stat spread, I'd fold Strength and Constitution together. Neither has legs to stand on separately. Strength, in particular, is very narrow in most systems that use it. Which is precisely why Pillars uses Might. Folding Strength and Constitution wouldn't work with its approach of every stat applying to the same thing regardless of "power source", as it were, either.

Banner Saga does something similar. Strength = damage and health. Of course it is a different type of game but it's a cool mechanic.

[Lephys]

I don't ask that an attribute system perfectly simulate all things. However, in a role-playing game, its goal should probably be to provide a full-spectrum of significant character distinguishments. That's the core of my issue with the PoE system. The only problem with Might that I have is that the system essentially says "Let's just assume anyone with X amount of Might can do all the exact same things that anyone else with X amount of Might can." It would be like combining armor and dodging. If you just say "Meh, at the end of the day, all that matters is whether or not you took damage," then you've diluted the whole role-playing aspect of the game world. Do you dodge things well, or actually nullify attacks that strike you? Ahhh, who cares. You avoid damage. Everyone is just a damage-avoider now.

 

The only reason Might "isn't that big of a deal" in PoE is because it's not really checked as significantly as it should be. This is the problem with Strength in 99% of RPGs. It's why there are dump stats. "Why should I take any Strength, as an (insert non-Warrior class her)? What... to pass those 2 Strength checks in the whole game that let me get past some minor obstacle, or achieve an outcome in a scenario that already had an alternative route to it anyway?" Same with Intelligence for Fighters. You maybe don't want them to be so dumb they can't function, but what's the use in their being smarter than a 10-year-old? You're spending an attribute point and getting FAR less for your "dollar." The solution to that isn't over-simplifying the attributes. Why take away the robustness of the system?

 

This is why I LOVE some of the things mentioned/suggested in this thread. Give Fighter-types a sub-grouping of abilities and talents with INT pre-requisites, for example. Make more checks to attributes, directly, and/or skills, directly.

 

And don't get me wrong... I know that with the first game, they had a pretty huge crunch, and were building all their assets and figuring Unity out from scratch, basically. But now that they've got a little more wiggle-room, I don't see it as unreasonable to try and get closer to some sort of ideal with attributes. The ideal isn't "make it just like DnD." But DnD had a pretty good foundation, coincidentally because of what all the stats represented. There are a ton of different attribute systems in different table-top games, but all the best ones are the ones that actually measure interesting, differentiating factors about your character, then are backed up by a system that actually uses those measurements to produce significant and dynamic results. When we went from table-top to CRPG, the tech at the time couldn't really handle the vast majority of the checks and attribute usages that you'd see in a tabletop session. Thus, the attributes were reduced to "how does this affect me, numbers-wise, in combat?", with dialogue checks trailing behind in second place and a sprinkling of other checks throughout.

 

Now that video games have come so far, the solution is not to reduce the attribute measurements down to the level of existing gameplay systems, but instead to bring the existing gameplay systems up to par with the attribute measurements.

 

Obviously Deadfire's budget only allows for so much, so if they can't do something, they can't do it. No one can feasibly be mad about that or demand that it be done anyway. However, to just say "Meh, the attribute system's okay, I guess. Better not waste any time even considering improvements to it" would be ludicrous. Proposing and discussing changes and improvements to the system and brainstorming reasons for them doesn't hurt anyone, and can only potentially contribute to a better understanding of attribute design on the part of anyone reading or taking part in such a discussion. So, I say collaborate away.