Fly United or Else!

[Valsuelm]

Note: NSFW Audio

 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Valsuelm

[Volourn]

Sad thing is people are defending their actions.  EVIL. the airline was 100% in the wrong, were unprofessional, were evil, were nazis, were pieces of crap. PERIOD.

[Gorgon]

Yeah but the cops, or air marshals or whatever were the one's who manhandled him. That's law enforcement ; the government. I bet United are kicking themselves about the cost of all this negative publicity. Overbooking is worth a lot of money, they aren't going to give that up though. 

 

 

Anyway how is it that you can get on a plane and they have the right to kick you off because they made a mistake. They should be forced to give serious compensation in that instance, not just a few hundred bucks. 

[Malcador]

They really should outlaw over booking

[Hurlshort]

At first I was like "Why would you resist?" but then I read that he was a doctor and had patients to get to, which seems like a pretty dang legitimate reason to not be the one to lose your seat. Crazy. Just another reason I take my RV everywhere.

 

Honestly if I was on the plane, instead of filming, I'd probably be the one to give up my seat. I can't imagine sitting on that plane for hours after watching that. That is some bad karma to begin a trip on a magical flying machine.

[Gromnir]

At first I was like "Why would you resist?" but then I read that he was a doctor and had patients to get to, which seems like a pretty dang legitimate reason to not be the one to lose your seat. Crazy. Just another reason I take my RV everywhere.

 

 

that's a reason you drive an rv instead o' flying?  

 

getting bumped happens .62 for every 10,000 passengers.

 

Gromnir don't drive an rv 'cause roller skating deer, hopped up on ecstasy and listening to air supply tracks from their ipods, tends to throw themselves at our vehicle.

 

*shrug*

 

the situation with united were a bit unique as passengers had already boarded, but for purposes o' the contract o' carriage, airlines got extreme broad discretion insofar as bumping folks.  rule o' thumb is airlines can bump you up until the moment the plane has left the terminal. worse, what constitutes "interference with the flight crew" is viewed even more broad, and as soon as the passenger refused to comply with instructions to disembark, force from law enforcement likely became appropriate. 

 

regardless, folks is once again learning the wrong lesson from the video. refusing to comply with law enforcement instructions beyond a certain point is all kinda stoopid.  how often does we need see video o' folks getting bloody lips or a faceful o' glass or even shot before folks realize it is a bad idea to refuse to comply with police instructions? wanna fight cops?  do so in court, with a lawyer to help you.  fight cops on a darkened city street, in your car or on a crowded airplane is gonna end up bad for you.  fight in court.  you might lose in court, but you could win.  you will lose on street, in your car or on a plane.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps united stock went up yesterday on an otherwise flat trading day.  stock is up considerable for the year as well. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Gromnir

[IndiraLightfoot]

United breaks everything they touch, like some anti-Midases:

 

[Youtube]

Edited April 11, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[Gorgon]

 

At first I was like "Why would you resist?" but then I read that he was a doctor and had patients to get to, which seems like a pretty dang legitimate reason to not be the one to lose your seat. Crazy. Just another reason I take my RV everywhere.

 

 

that's a reason you drive an rv instead o' flying?  

 

getting bumped happens .62 for every 10,000 passengers.

 

Gromnir don't drive an rv 'cause roller skating deer, hopped up on ecstasy and listening to air supply tracks from their ipods, tends to throw themselves at our vehicle.

 

*shrug*

 

the situation with united were a bit unique as passengers had already boarded, but for purposes o' the contract o' carriage, airlines got extreme broad discretion insofar as bumping folks.  rule o' thumb is airlines can bump you up until the moment the plane has left the terminal. worse, what constitutes "interference with the flight crew" is viewed even more broad, and as soon as the passenger refused to comply with instructions to disembark, force from law enforcement likely became appropriate. 

 

regardless, folks is once again learning the wrong lesson from the video. refusing to comply with law enforcement instructions beyond a certain point is all kinda stoopid.  how often does we need see video o' folks getting bloody lips or a faceful o' glass or even shot before folks realize it is a bad idea to refuse to comply with police instructions? wanna fight cops?  do so in court, with a lawyer to help you.  fight cops on a darkened city street, in your car or on a crowded airplane is gonna end up bad for you.  fight in court.  you might lose in court, but you could win.  you will lose on street, in your car or on a plane.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps united stock went up yesterday on an otherwise flat trading day.  stock is up considerable for the year as well. 

 

Well, the cops don't seem to think so. They uncharacteristically issued a statement that this was not reasonable force and not standard procedure.

[Guard Dog]

You know what is ironic as hell? The very DAY this happened the United CEO Oscar Munoz was given an award for community outreach.

 

In all seriousness though, they were were offering $800 and a free night in the Airport Hilton as well as a seat on the next flight to give up a seat voluntarily. I'd have been all over that.

 

You know something else funny? After they dragged that doctor off kicking and screaming (and beat the tar out of him apparently) those four United employees got to sit with the people who just watched it happen. Now THAT'S awkward!

[Hurlshort]

 

At first I was like "Why would you resist?" but then I read that he was a doctor and had patients to get to, which seems like a pretty dang legitimate reason to not be the one to lose your seat. Crazy. Just another reason I take my RV everywhere.

 

 

that's a reason you drive an rv instead o' flying?  

 

getting bumped happens .62 for every 10,000 passengers.

 

Gromnir don't drive an rv 'cause roller skating deer, hopped up on ecstasy and listening to air supply tracks from their ipods, tends to throw themselves at our vehicle.

 

*shrug*

 

 

Geez Grommie, it's not like I said it was my top reason. No need to attack my lifestyle choices.

 

There is a laundry list of reasons why I prefer to take an RV on a trip over a plane. The only two advantages to plane has is speed and travelling over water. Everything else is worse. So as long as I'm not is a rush to get somewhere and I'm happy visiting the two American continents, I'm in good shape.  

[Malcador]

You know what is ironic as hell? The very DAY this happened the United CEO Oscar Munoz was given an award for community outreach.

 

In all seriousness though, they were were offering $800 and a free night in the Airport Hilton as well as a seat on the next flight to give up a seat voluntarily. I'd have been all over that.

 

You know something else funny? After they dragged that doctor off kicking and screaming (and beat the tar out of him apparently) those four United employees got to sit with the people who just watched it happen. Now THAT'S awkward!

Apparently they just got verbally harassed, nothing more sadly.

[HoonDing]

They always pick on the hard-working Azian.

[Gromnir]

 

 

At first I was like "Why would you resist?" but then I read that he was a doctor and had patients to get to, which seems like a pretty dang legitimate reason to not be the one to lose your seat. Crazy. Just another reason I take my RV everywhere.

 

 

that's a reason you drive an rv instead o' flying?  

 

getting bumped happens .62 for every 10,000 passengers.

 

Gromnir don't drive an rv 'cause roller skating deer, hopped up on ecstasy and listening to air supply tracks from their ipods, tends to throw themselves at our vehicle.

 

*shrug*

 

the situation with united were a bit unique as passengers had already boarded, but for purposes o' the contract o' carriage, airlines got extreme broad discretion insofar as bumping folks.  rule o' thumb is airlines can bump you up until the moment the plane has left the terminal. worse, what constitutes "interference with the flight crew" is viewed even more broad, and as soon as the passenger refused to comply with instructions to disembark, force from law enforcement likely became appropriate. 

 

regardless, folks is once again learning the wrong lesson from the video. refusing to comply with law enforcement instructions beyond a certain point is all kinda stoopid.  how often does we need see video o' folks getting bloody lips or a faceful o' glass or even shot before folks realize it is a bad idea to refuse to comply with police instructions? wanna fight cops?  do so in court, with a lawyer to help you.  fight cops on a darkened city street, in your car or on a crowded airplane is gonna end up bad for you.  fight in court.  you might lose in court, but you could win.  you will lose on street, in your car or on a plane.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps united stock went up yesterday on an otherwise flat trading day.  stock is up considerable for the year as well. 

 

Well, the cops don't seem to think so. They uncharacteristically issued a statement that this was not reasonable force and not standard procedure.

 

you are misreading.  force to compel compliance is appropriate.  the degree of force used and the steps taken before force were applied may not have been appropriate in this case, but the use o' force is warranted when passengers interfere with the flight crew.  

 

and again, wrong lesson is learned.  as gd noted, the airline made a generous offer and in virtual all cases, somebody on a flight will accept such alternative offers made by the airline. sadly, once law enforcement arrives and makes demands, monty haul is no longer possible. the passenger were gonna leave the plane even if a few de-escalation steps were skipped by law enforcement. yeah, law enforcement has been known to resort to excessive force. is all the more reason to avoid possible confrontation, no?  given dr. dao's past, avoiding confrontations with police woulda' been all the more advisable.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

You knew this one was coming:

 

[Tigranes]

Legally "can" is different from morally "should" or PR-wise "should". All info seems to suggest that airline exercised its legal powers in an unnecessarily cruel way, while the police's excessive force will no doubt be written off as "OK" in the great Chicago police tradition. Good thing he was brown not black, huh?

 

Unfortunately, almost all American airlines have been rude and inferior service for a long time, and they know perfectly well that most of their customers have no choice but to put up with it. (So, I suppose, it's not that stupid of them, just dickish.) 

 

P.S. Grom is right that in the moment, if you're facing police command, then you're best off not resisting. Precisely because America's police cannot uniformly be trusted to exact appropriate amount of violence, and you don't want to give them any reason to go on one of their regular violence binges. (And because legally it just becomes very hard to defend your case.)

 

What's more crucial is the poor handling before the dude resisted removal. A lot rests on how competently the airline handled the voluntary bumping part of the procedure - in most cases it's just common sense to do it before everyone's boarded, and then chances are you aren't bumping an old doctor who has to see his patients. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Tigranes

[rjshae]

They really should outlaw over booking

 

An alternative would be to require sufficient refund to cause the airlines to reconsider the business practice. It's a calculated gamble on their part, since they are weighting the risk of overbooking vs. risk of profit loss from empty seats. If the international community were to require, say, a minimum x3 ticket price refund for each passenger being bounced, the airlines should, in theory, alter their practice to include a larger buffer of potential empty seats.

 

That was a really ugly scene. It could have been anyone in that position.

[Tigranes]

United CEO implies to his employees that the 'belligerent' passenger deserved what he got

 

United stock drops sharply

 

United CEO apologises for 'truly horrific' removal of passenger

 

[Volourn]

"the airline made a generous offer"

 

No, they didn't. You cna get more than that for being a victim of ovebrooking. Also, this wans't a case of overbooking. Victims of overbooking never get to go on the plane at all. And, this was about employees wanting/needing seats not other paying customers so not overbooking.

 

The airline screwed up. Anyone who uses any logic or common sense or believes in professionalism knows this.

[Agiel]

Notes on airlines overbooking:

 

[Volourn]

And, the smear job begins. I wonder if we listed all of the legal problems of this airline and their employees what would wouold be found. More evidence of their evil.

[Gromnir]

"the airline made a generous offer"

 

No, they didn't. You cna get more than that for being a victim of ovebrooking. Also, this wans't a case of overbooking. Victims of overbooking never get to go on the plane at all. And, this was about employees wanting/needing seats not other paying customers so not overbooking.

 

The airline screwed up. Anyone who uses any logic or common sense or believes in professionalism knows this.

it were a case of overbooking, but yeah, rarely does folks actual get on the plane in such situations.  'ccording to the contract of carriage all ticket purchasers agree to, folks can be removed at airline discretion up to the point which the plane leaves the terminal.  don't like being bumped? fly an airline which don't bump, or do as hurl and risk road travel. 

 

the airline did screw up and they handled the screwup poorly.  even so, the airline screwup were a minor thing. a handful o' passengers were inconvenienced. delayed to a later flight and compensated. annoying, but hardly the evil folks is pretending it to be.  the situation actual spun outta hand when the passenger refused to comply with directives from the airline and from law enforcement.  law enforcement clear made worse by by handling the passenger removal in a seeming excessive manner.

 

Gromnir ain't defending law enforcement excess, but honestly, who are these folks who when confronted by armed police officers decide it is better to risk a physical confrontation... a physical confrontation over a plane seat?  if dr. dao were defending his wife or kids or a stranger from police brutality, we could understand his behavior.  if dr. dao were standing up for democracy, or civil rights or even puppies we could understand risking a police confrontation.  inconvenience.  dr. dao can't see patients w/o another doctor's supervision, so is not as if those patients with runny noses and sore backs were gonna be going w/o medical care. ultimately the guy were willing to risk police confrontation to avoid inconvenience.

 

airline made a mistake.

 

the passenger's behavior in the situation were unreasonable.

 

law enforcement acted with excessive force.

 

is plenty o' blame to go 'round.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tigranes]

The passenger's mistake was to act in a way that is strategically unsound given the legal context, influenced by his anxiety to reach his patients. 

 

The airline's mistake was to handle legally permissible procedures in incompetent and unwise ways, seemingly for no good reason.

 

The law enforcement's mistake was to use excessive force and cause unnecessary physical harm on an elderly doctor. 

 

I know that as far as I'm concerned, that's three qualitatively different kinds of mistakes, and some of them are far, far worse.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Tigranes

[Volourn]

"Gromnir ain't defending law enforcement excess, but honestly, who are these folks who when confronted by armed police officers decide it is better to risk a physical confrontation... a physical confrontation over a plane seat?  if dr. dao were defending his wife or kids or a stranger from police brutality, we could understand his behavior.  if dr. dao were standing up for democracy, or civil rights or even puppies we could understand risking a police confrontation.  inconvenience.  dr. dao can't see patients w/o another doctor's supervision, so is not as if those patients with runny noses and sore backs were gonna be going w/o medical care. ultimately the guy were willing to risk police confrontation to avoid inconvenience."

 

Agreed. When someone  tries to rob, assault, or rape you.. you better comply... and, if you don't.. and you get beat up worse or mrudered it is 100% your fault. Not the perpetrator.

 

The airline is 100% wrong. Anyone who thinks otherwise is 100% wrong.

 

The blame is 100% on the airline for their evilness, unprofessionalismn, bullying, intimidations, threats of violkence, use of violence, physical, emotional, and verbal abuse, rape, nazism, and insanity.

 

The victim did ntohing wrong. He defended himself from nazis. PERIOD.

 

Also, the airline knows they screwed up and are now begging for emrcy because they now understand what they did was not only morally wrong it broke the law. That is the only reason for the now apology - they are fearful of a lawsuit that could cost them a lot more money than if they had just handled this PROFESSIONALLY and HUMANELY.
 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Volourn

[Gromnir]

am doubting the airline is particular worried 'bout lawsuit.  the passenger agreed to the possibility o' being kicked off the plane when he purchased his ticket. the airline didn't actual drag the passenger off the plane either.  nobody from the airline laid hands on the passenger.  united might very well lose patronage from folks who see united as the ultimate evil doer, and perhaps united would rather settle than deal with a public legal battle, but we can't see much potential liability for united.

 

'course any discussion with vol is doomed from the start.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

WRONG.

 

But, we get it. Gromnir loves it when violence is used against innocents. Maybe the airline will hire you to defend them. I mean youa re already defending the undefendable FOR FREE. Might as well get paid for it.  They are evil nazi warmongering violent unprofessional,, selfish, piece of crap psychopaths., Why defend them?