Bittercut doubt

[Boeroer]

Sure sure - I know. All good. The "Yes, thanks" was not ironical or something.

 

I just wanted to differentiate a bit and show that the answer is not easy and also depends where you are in the game (besides other factors you mentioned).

[Kaylon]

@kaylon

 

what is the minimum requirements you can reach zero recovery with a greatsword vs dual sabres WITHOUT haste potions, frenzys, buffs ect.......

 

Only equipment

 

really appreciate your help thanks

Durgan enchanted weapons, Gauntlets of Swift Action and Two Weapons Style are enough to reach 0% recovery while dual wielding if you don't have other recovery penalties (armor, Vulnerable Attack, etc).

 

With 2h weapons it's not possible to reach 0% recovery without buffs.

[firkraag888]

^^^^^^^^

 

thanks very helpful.

 

I personally didn't think that wielding a 2 hander would be as quick as dual wielding (even late game)  because you can tell from watching the attack animations that there is a significant difference in speed and damage done.

 

Of course if the 2 hander drank a haste potion and the dual weilder didn't that gap would be closed.

[Boeroer]

The attack animations of two handers and larger one handers have the exact same length - with or without potion. The speed of attack animations only changes with DEX. Potions and other buffs only influence recovery time. Recovery is also the same with two handers or single larger one handers.

 

Dual Wielding will reduce recovery only. Attack animations remain unchanged.

 

So if you can tell those things by watching the attack animations you may be victim of an optical illusion. Which is understandable because the two handers are longer and seem to be slower. But counting frames shows that they are not.

 

Once the recovery of two hander and dual wielding is the same, both variants attack with the exact same speed.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Boeroer

[firkraag888]

^^^^^

 

The difference in between attacks not the actual attack itself

[Kaylon]

^^^^^^^^

 

thanks very helpful.

 

I personally didn't think that wielding a 2 hander would be as quick as dual wielding (even late game)  because you can tell from watching the attack animations that there is a significant difference in speed and damage done.

 

Of course if the 2 hander drank a haste potion and the dual weilder didn't that gap would be closed.

Well, the idea is that a dual wielder can't attack faster by drinking a haste potion, while a 2h will... (becoming the highest dps option in the game)

[firkraag888]

 

^^^^^^^^

 

thanks very helpful.

 

I personally didn't think that wielding a 2 hander would be as quick as dual wielding (even late game) because you can tell from watching the attack animations that there is a significant difference in speed and damage done.

 

Of course if the 2 hander drank a haste potion and the dual weilder didn't that gap would be closed.

 

Well, the idea is that a dual wielder can't attack faster by drinking a haste potion, while a 2h will... (becoming the highest dps option in the game)

If the 2h has no armour on Edited April 4, 2017 by firkraag888

[Kaylon]

 

 

^^^^^^^^

 

thanks very helpful.

 

I personally didn't think that wielding a 2 hander would be as quick as dual wielding (even late game) because you can tell from watching the attack animations that there is a significant difference in speed and damage done.

 

Of course if the 2 hander drank a haste potion and the dual weilder didn't that gap would be closed.

Well, the idea is that a dual wielder can't attack faster by drinking a haste potion, while a 2h will... (becoming the highest dps option in the game)

If the 2h has no armour on

 

You want to know the best dps option for a rogue in plate under DAoM?

 

With dual sabres you can reach 0% recovery with Vulnerable Attack activated. With the Blade of the Endless Paths you can also reach 0% recovery (but without Vulnerable Attack). Both options have 5DR penetration and attack with the same speed. With 2x legendary Bittercut with Spirit of Decay you have 35% more dmg bonus than with a superb BoEP. A rogue chaining death blows deals 365%+dmg with BoEP and 400%+dmg with 2x Bittercuts - ie 62dmg vs 54dmg (without lashes).

[firkraag888]

yeah but that's with wearing heavy armor dual wielding vs no armour 2 handed style you said isn't it?

[Kaylon]

yeah but that's with wearing heavy armor dual wielding vs no armour 2 handed style you said isn't it?

I said both wearing plate and using speed potion...

[Boeroer]

No, the rogue with the BotEP can also wear plate if he uses a potion of Alacrity for example - giving him 0 recovery like the dual wieder has. The dual wielder could also gulp that potion, but it wouldn't do anything for him because he already has 0 recovery.

 

Anyways - having higher DR is of course benefical, but it's not relevant when speaking about dps.

 

So, the best melee dps option in the late game can be two hander. If it's the best option overall is debateable and also heavily depends on your class, your enemy and your and party setup and what gear is available - if you like consumables or not and so on. But the best possible melee dps option late in the game is a two hander.

The big advantage of dual wielding is that before the late mid game to late game - where speedups like durgan steel become available - you will have better dps most of the time if you use a class which has no good speed ability (rogues, fighters, papadins and so on) and you don't want to drink Alacrity potions or use drugs. And of course if you use a rogue who takes all the strike abilites - then I would totally recommend dual wielding because it should always result in higher damage output (first strike blinds, secnds strike already has Sneak bonus and so on). 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Boeroer

[firkraag888]

ah ok.

 

what is the minimum armor for zero recovery for dual wielding can you do it with durgan wayfairer hide?

[Boeroer]

Don't exactly get what you want to know, sorry. I guess you mean which armor (with durgan steel) you can wear and still have 0 recovery with no potions and buffs - while dual wielding?

 

Then the answer is: yes, durgan reinforced Wayfarer's Hide will work. In fact, even a leather armor would work. No potion and no speed buffs needed. Cool stuff.

 

If you use speed enchanted weapons (March Steel Dagger, Sword of Daenysis, Shatterstar, Danulya, Rimecutter and so on - there are a few more) then you can even wear durganized plate AND switch on Vulnerable Attack with no speed loss - still 0 recvery. You won't have to use any buff or potion. Or you use a bit weaker armor (leather) and also take Cautious Attack without speed loss or something. Also neat.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Boeroer

[Kaylon]

Just with durganized weapons, gauntlets of swift action and two weapons style you can't have any recovery penalty from armor if you want 0% attack recovery. If you have weapons with speed then you can use up to durganized breastplate and still have 0% recovery. If you want also to use vulnerable attack then you have to limit yourself to padded.

[firkraag888]

Just with durganized weapons, gauntlets of swift action and two weapons style you can't have any recovery penalty from armor if you want 0% attack recovery. If you have weapons with speed then you can use up to durganized breastplate and still have 0% recovery. If you want also to use vulnerable attack then you have to limit yourself to padded.

this should be in the game manual.

 

legend!

[firkraag888]

 

Just with durganized weapons, gauntlets of swift action and two weapons style you can't have any recovery penalty from armor if you want 0% attack recovery. If you have weapons with speed then you can use up to durganized breastplate and still have 0% recovery. If you want also to use vulnerable attack then you have to limit yourself to padded.

this should be in the game manual.

 

legend!

 

requires a  bit of luck to get the gauntlets of swift action and rimecutter but a rogue built like that would hands down be the highest dps build in the game (with the highest DR)

 

probably better then dual bitter cut or drawn in spring

Edited April 4, 2017 by firkraag888

[Boeroer]

He? Did I do the math wrong? Maybe, I just hacked something into my calc and didn't double check. But doesn't dual wielding + gauntlets + durgan steel + two weaoons style leave you with enough buffer to compensate ~15% armor penalty?

[Boeroer]

requires a  bit of luck to get the gauntlets of swift action and rimecutter but a rogue built like that would hands down be the highest dps build in the game (with the highest DR)

 

probably better then dual bitter cut or drawn in spring

A proper druid would still deliver higher single target dps because of the higher base damage, inherent DR bypass and his massive lashes and also because of some spells that work nicely with melee fighting, but he's limited to short shifting time and has a bit lower DR.

 

A barb with a two hander like BoTEP and Frenzy + Bloodlust also does more dps - but not single target dps of course.

 

A monk also does more dps as long as he has a lot of wounds.

 

But for persistent high single target dps without using resources that rogue would indeed be the best pick I guess. The only thing why Bittercut might be "better" for him on the long run is because of two damge types instead of one compared to Rimecutter.

[firkraag888]

The Druid would be the winner there especially if cat shifted with avenging storm.

 

But if you went down that path (self buffs) a self buffed melee wizard would probably be able to beat a Druid, rogue, barb , monk 4vs 1 and still win .

[Boeroer]

I agree with everything you said there basically.

[Lampros]

The Druid would be the winner there especially if cat shifted with avenging storm.

 

But if you went down that path (self buffs) a self buffed melee wizard would probably be able to beat a Druid, rogue, barb , monk 4vs 1 and still win .

 

Really? Self-buffed melee Wizard is a powerhouse? How would the build/weapon set-up go? Would love to investigate this, as I am very interested in a Gandalf melee character!

[Boeroer]

Basically you cast Citzal's Spirit Lance, Wizard's Double or another defense buff and then Martial Power, then use Arcane + Hardened Veil. It's like an untouchable pike barb on steroids. Usually the duration of Arcane Veil is enough to kill most groups with the lance.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

And as a bonus the lance looks great. These things are important.

[Boeroer]

Oops - I forgot Alacrity. Cast that first.

[Torm51]

Basically you cast Citzal's Spirit Lance, Wizard's Double or another defense buff and then Martial Power, then use Arcane + Hardened Veil. It's like an untouchable pike barb on steroids. Usually the duration of Arcane Veil is enough to kill most groups with the lance.

A Fighter with the dispel wizard spell ring and disc barrage would destroy that wizard.  Also A paladin with Sworn Enemy+ Deprive the Unworthy.  They need the dispels though.  Also the Wizard could just reapply the spells after the dispel lol..it would have to be a fort disable and then the dispel so he cant reapply lol  A fighter could knock down that mage easily.  The problem is that the mage will still have sky high deflection while knocked down.  And if hes got armor or a shield to switch to with that preservation enchant forget about it,  Man in a pvp environment dispels spells would annihilate.

 

PVP POE Whoa lmao

Edited September 19, 2017 by Torm51