From the Twitch Q&A: enchanting and ceiling

[draego]

 

 

 

 

Maybe increased accuracy is too important in pillars but at least it'll now be a consideration unlike before. If I have ultimately choose a higher quality item over one with a cool property I want that to be a painful decision.

 

Why does the painful decision have to be between a cool property and a higher quality; why can't it be between one cool property and another cool property? How is the choice between weak or boring more desirable than the choice between cool and other-cool?

 

 

You're presenting a false dichotomy. I'm assuming there will be lots of cool properties, if there's not then that's an entirely different problem. With the PoE1 enchantment system, quality is never a factor in choosing weapons. With the proposed system you'll have to both properties and quality when determine which equipment to use.

 

 

I dont see how properties will be any deciding factor the first an only factor will be quality then maybe property. lets say you have 20 unique swords total in the game 10 early to mid and the rest later. The 10 early to mid will never be a consideration even if they have cool unique properties because the later 10 will have better quality to start and upgrade. And we know the 10 early swords will have unique never replicated properties. So if you find a flaming sword early you wont get one late. So this new system is making quality the primary choice not properties. It is having the opposite affect because it basically forces the player to trash most weapons simply based on quality before even considering properties. 

 

 

I'd argue the system is doing the exact opposite. But we still don't know enough about the system to be sure (maybe the accuracy delta between different quality levels will be smaller, maybe properties will have a much greater proportional effect, etc.). I trust Josh as a designer and believe he and the rest of the team will be able to make a enchantment system that's better than what we got in PoE.

 

 

I agree if they make the accuracy and damage delta smaller or if they just remove it all together (i would prefer that to what they a have discussed already). Josh on his tumbler specifically acknowledged the use of quality enhancements but ye we do need more info. And i agree i trust Josh and them to make the system fun and fair. so this isnt like the walking toggle thing where if they dont do what i want i wont buy the game (i know that was probably only one guy so just kidding). this is just a discussion. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by jnb0364

[Pope]

Haven't read the entire thread, but I follow OP wholeheartedly.

 

In fact, one of my main gripes with PoE1 was precisely the fact that we could not upgrade Attribute Bonus enchantments (even though we could upgrade Quality enchantments), for the exact reason that this went against the idea of being able to keep using our favorite equipment.

[Boeroer]

Everybody can make stupid decisions no matter brains or skills. Our trust doesn't prevent that. It's constructive criticism that prevents that.

[oddrheia]

 

I agree if they make the accuracy and damage delta smaller or if they just remove it all together (i would prefer that to what they a have discussed already). Josh on his tumbler specifically acknowledged the use of quality enhancements but ye we do need more info. And i agree i trust Josh and them to make the system fun and fair. so this isnt like the walking toggle thing where if they dont do what i want i wont buy the game (i know that was probably only one guy so just kidding). this is just a discussion. 

 

 

No to derail this thread, but I would implore you to not spread misinformation about people involved in the 'walking toggle' thread'. No-one is boycotting Deadfire there. There isn't a single  "do it, or else!" post in it.  That thread's purpose is to raise awareness that to some of us, addition of that feature would be very important, and do it while the game is still in early enough development stage. Sure, some are more passionate about it than others, but we all love the game. Heck, pretty much all of us there are Deadfire backers.

 

-----------

 

Speaking of enchantment...  since someone raised the point that the new system appears to be forcing the quality to be the primary choice instead of properties due to the limitation of +1 tier step enchantment only, I feel the need to repeat that it will limit the appearance choices too. I hope we can avoid every character looking exactly the same at the end because de facto best equipment drops in the endgame.

 

From the released in-game tidbits, it looks like we are getting some cool armor models with Deadfire. Not sure about weapons... but probably that too?

Edited March 1, 2017 by oddrheia

[draego]

 

 

I agree if they make the accuracy and damage delta smaller or if they just remove it all together (i would prefer that to what they a have discussed already). Josh on his tumbler specifically acknowledged the use of quality enhancements but ye we do need more info. And i agree i trust Josh and them to make the system fun and fair. so this isnt like the walking toggle thing where if they dont do what i want i wont buy the game (i know that was probably only one guy so just kidding). this is just a discussion. 

 

 

No to derail this thread, but I would implore you to not spread misinformation about people involved in the 'walking toggle' thread'. No-one is boycotting Deadfire there. There isn't a single  "do it, or else!" post in it.  That thread's purpose is to raise awareness that to some of us, addition of that feature would be very important, and do it while the game is still in early enough development stage. Sure, some are more passionate about it than others, but we all love the game. Heck, pretty much all of us there are Deadfire backers.

 

-----------

 

Speaking of enchantment...  since someone raised the point that the new system appears to be forcing the quality to be the primary choice instead of properties due to the limitation of +1 tier step enchantment only, I feel the need to repeat that it will limit the appearance choices too. I hope we can avoid every character looking exactly the same at the end because de facto best equipment drops in the endgame.

 

From the released in-game tidbits, it looks like we are getting some cool armor models with Deadfire. Not sure about weapons... but probably that too?

 

 

Ye i know it was a little bad taste i was just picking and i did respond to someone in that thread that said the walk toggle was the last straw in whether to buy the new torment game. So ye i using hyperbole to exaggerate what that thread represented but i didnt pull it out of thin air. i was running with what the implication of that comment stated. But you are correct my statement did not represent what is stated in that thread

Edited March 1, 2017 by jnb0364

[oddrheia]

 

 

 

I agree if they make the accuracy and damage delta smaller or if they just remove it all together (i would prefer that to what they a have discussed already). Josh on his tumbler specifically acknowledged the use of quality enhancements but ye we do need more info. And i agree i trust Josh and them to make the system fun and fair. so this isnt like the walking toggle thing where if they dont do what i want i wont buy the game (i know that was probably only one guy so just kidding). this is just a discussion. 

 

 

No to derail this thread, but I would implore you to not spread misinformation about people involved in the 'walking toggle' thread'. No-one is boycotting Deadfire there. There isn't a single  "do it, or else!" post in it.  That thread's purpose is to raise awareness that to some of us, addition of that feature would be very important, and do it while the game is still in early enough development stage. Sure, some are more passionate about it than others, but we all love the game. Heck, pretty much all of us there are Deadfire backers.

 

-----------

 

Speaking of enchantment...  since someone raised the point that the new system appears to be forcing the quality to be the primary choice instead of properties due to the limitation of +1 tier step enchantment only, I feel the need to repeat that it will limit the appearance choices too. I hope we can avoid every character looking exactly the same at the end because de facto best equipment drops in the endgame.

 

From the released in-game tidbits, it looks like we are getting some cool armor models with Deadfire. Not sure about weapons... but probably that too?

 

 

Ye i know it was a little bad taste i was just picking and i did respond to someone in that thread that said the walk toggle was the last straw in whether to buy the new torment game. So ye i using hyperbole to exaggerate what that thread represented but i didnt pull it out of thin air. i was running with what the implication of that comment stated.

 

 

That was me.

 

The absence of walk toggle was indeed the 'last straw' of why I did not buy Tides of Numenera. I had other bones to pick with that game that I did not feel were relevant to go in depth on that particular thread, but the fact is, that missing feature factored in my decision making.

 

it was important enough for me to go from 'will buy with misgivings' to 'will not buy'.

 

But once again,  Deadfire has nothing to do with it. I backed it already, knowing full well that walk toggle may not make it in. I love the game enough, and have enough faith in the developers to buy the expansion pass too.  I even stated so in that same exact post you trying to use as an example of people implying ultimatums and not discussing things.

 

The implication of my comment in that thread was 'that feature is important to me guys!' It was not 'I will not buy you game if you don't do this, period!'. Just to clear it up, since apparently it wasn't obvious enough.

 

Anyway! Let's not derail this farther, and get back to the issues of new enchantment system!

Edited March 1, 2017 by oddrheia

[Aleh1811]

I very much like the idea of a ceiling. I believe having all weapons be fully upgradeable kills the joy of finding new equipment and increase your power.

 

I hate the idea of choosing a weapon for aesthetically reasons and then being able to keep it for the rest of the game.

[Boeroer]

Did you read the thread?

 

In which game was it possible to have all weapons fully upgraded? In PoE you could only upgrade two weapons to legendary at max. That's not too many for a whole party. And how on earth does that kill the joy of finding new equipment?

 

You second statement is so unbelievable that I can't comment on it politely, seriously. So please don't elaborate.

[AndreaColombo]

Boeroer, I'll just leave this here: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/91930-player-sexual-companion/

 

[Aleh1811]

boerorer

 

let's keep things calm and just agree to disagree.

[Aleh1811]

I guessing my regrettable choice of title is probably making some people believe my opinions is just invalid.

 

I already explained what led me to write things is such terms but if that's enough for some to completely rule out what ever I say them so be it. random people opinions of my forum avatar is not my main life concern.

 

for what it's worth, I do maintain my opinions. than being able to upgrade weapons (if only some) to use in final part of the game kills the joy of finding new equipment for me.

 

if such opinion is so infuriating as to create such overreaction I will leave you guys in your safe space.

[Boeroer]

I have no real problem with your first statement. I just think it's not true, but that's not bothering me.

 

What really upsets me is that you "hate" something which gives a lot of players joy and is totally optional for you: that one could choose a stylish weapon and keep it in a playthrough. It's not gonna be the best weapon by far, it just keeps to be viable.

But you hate that option although it doesn't touch your gaming. It sounds a bit like "I hate it when dudes love each other because I am straight" or "I hate that they sell broccolis because I dislike broccoli and so nobody should have it". I don't know if it just came out the wrong way (then no offense - I know it can be tricky to express yourself properly with all nuances and connotations if you're not using your mother tongue) or if you really mean it the way I described it. Because I really loathe totalitarian attitudes.

 

And of course you can state any opinion - may it be weird or offensive or whatever - but you have to be prepared to meet with (sometimes furious) resistance.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Boeroer

[Aleh1811]

no, you misundertand me. I like that the game forces me to make changes and doesn't allow me to keep my first choice which is what I tend to do by nature. how other people play is never in my mind when I make this choices.

[Aleh1811]

regarding the part of furious resistance, let's not exaggerate. we are discussing a computer game. if we cannor make a calm discussion of this, then what's left for important issues?

[Boeroer]

It's not about that (and maybe I do misunderstand you).

 

It's about your statement that you "hate" that the player is able (just being able, it's no must and there surely are better option in terms of power) to choose an item which is aesthetically appealing to him and being able to carry this through the whole game without gimping his char too much.

 

Since you don't have to do this (and can totally throw the good looking stuff in the trashbin if you want - even if upgraded it won't be as good as the late game stuff) I don't get how you can hate that. As I said: it sounds like the broccoli stuff. And that makes me a bit angry. I'm still controlling it though.

[Aleh1811]

to clear things up a little bit. I'm currently writing from a south east asia small town. internet is terrible and phone touch screen is broken. in am perfectly aware of the many spelling and grammar mistakes I am making, but I rather not the spend the massive amount of time I need to correct them.

[Aleh1811]

well as I said, I like to be forced in to variety and change, I don't think about how other people play. the word hate refers to how being eased in to being able to keep my weapon makes me feel.

[amazeing4art]

People are using unique items pretty much exclusively. Who would have guessed.

I take your point that people are mostly using unique items, but actually that doesn't negate or contradict what I wrote about being disappointed that I could enchant my own crappy weapon to be almost as good. People would probably use unique weapons rather than their own enchanted ones if the unique weapons were just 1% better, or even the same probably. Since you find a unique weapon for free, and have to pay for your own enchant. But in any case, my feeling of disappointment when I realized the Blade of the Endless Paths was nothing very special compared to what I could enchant myself is just what it is. You can't really argue against someone's feelings, or tell them they shouldn't feel that way!

 

I like rare and magical weapons to be something special... particularly ones you have find in pieces and have to bring to blacksmiths. Otherwise where is the fun or mystery? Where is the lore and story? What if Bilbo had found Sting in the Troll barrows and everyone in the party just said... "oh thats an ancient Elven shortsword, made in Gondolin during the First Age... but it's nothing too special! Bifur can craft a sword 85% as good as that right by the campfire tonight with some berries and gems!" Er... no thanks I won't be reading more of that story.

Edited March 2, 2017 by amazeing4art

[Boeroer]

I take your point that people are mostly using unique items, but actually that doesn't negate or contradict what I wrote about being disappointed that I could enchant my own crappy weapon to be almost as good. People would probably use unique weapons rather than their own enchanted ones if the unique weapons were just 1% better, or even the same probably. Since you find a unique weapon for free, and have to pay for your own enchant. But in any case, my feeling of disappointment when I realized the Blade of the Endless Paths was nothing very special compared to what I could enchant myself is just what it is. You can't really argue against someone's feelings, or tell them they shouldn't feel that way!

 

I like rare and magical weapons to be something special... particularly ones you have find in pieces and have to bring to blacksmiths. Otherwise where is the fun or mystery? Where is the lore and story? What if Bilbo had found Sting in the Troll barrows and everyone in the party just said... "oh thats an ancient Elven shortsword, made in Gondolin during the First Age... but it's nothing too special! Bifur can craft a dozen swords 90% as good as that right by the campfire tonight with some berries and gems!" Er... no thanks I won't be reading more of that story.

I can totally understand why it can be disappointing to find and assemble that weapon and then find out it's not superoutstanding (it's one of the best weapons, but it is no no-brainer pick for every melee char). It's not how I feel about it, but I can understand this. And maybe I also had a bit of that feeling when I did my first playthrough but maybe forgot about it.

 

But this can be solved in another way: give such weapons really good enchantments that you can't do yourself. For example: St. Ydwen's Redeemer has that vessel destroying property which is truely unique and very powerful in the right situations. So what I say is: make those weapons more powerful - not in terms of ACC and damage (= quality enchantment) but in terms of awesomeness given by great side effects and such.

That way you will enable "style victims (hello AndreaColombo )" to play the game with their fancy fiddlestick because they still can hit stuff (ACC is so important) but at the same time make sure players can say "Wow" when they finally put together that ancient piece of weaponary.

 

In my opinion, it all comes down to good enchantments (other than lashes and quality). I mean look at the soulbounds. Not all of them are consideres inferior to self enchanted uniques with lash + durgan steel. Stormcaller is a great pick because of Returning Storm and the -6 shock DR. THis is a very powerful enchantment and the bow is cnsidered to be top nth even though it can't have a lash nor durgan steel.

 

Acuan Giamas is one of the latest weapons in the game and few people realize how powerful this thing is just because of it's spell stealing. It's just bad that it comes so late.

 

Bittercut is one of the best weapons simply because it has corrode/slash and works with Spirit of Decay.

 

Then the Redeemer as I mentioned. All those weapons are considered to be good or best because of their special properties, not because they come superior or legendary.

 

I'd say elaborate more on such awesome features for late (or later) game weapons and keep the quality enchantments through rare resources. That way we could all be happy.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

to clear things up a little bit. I'm currently writing from a south east asia small town. internet is terrible and phone touch screen is broken. in am perfectly aware of the many spelling and grammar mistakes I am making, but I rather not the spend the massive amount of time I need to correct them.

Nay - nobody expects you to do that. Well - at least I don't.

 

I'm the master of typos and am surely not able nor willing to correct them all. So don't bother about that. It wasn't my intention to criticize your spelling or something like that.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Boeroer

[amazeing4art]

Boeroer, I agree totally with your thoughts. My disappointment at the Blade of the Endless Paths was helped by WM 1 and 2 with the presence of soulbound weapons and the other interesting unique weapons. I agree, make the rare and hard to find items (soulbound or not) come with unusual enchants that are powerful and interesting, and the problem Is solved. White March made great strides in that direction.

Edited March 2, 2017 by amazeing4art

[George_Truman]

As far as roleplaying within the context of the game-world goes, I feel like this change helps rather than hurts. Most realistic individuals would choose a weapon for its practicality/power rather than its aesthetics.

 

Limitations on enchanting also already exist in the game - you cannot give weapons speed, rending, wounding, etc. I don't see very much discontent with this and I assume it is because the benefits of the enchantments tend to be less opaque than +damage +accuracy.

 

I personally like the idea of static power levels for weapons but I would love for the quality system to go. I would much prefer to see weapons with more unique properties both good and bad. For instance: accuracy loss/gain, varying penetration, speed loss/gain, varying base damages, life steal/sacrifice, etc. Some weapons can be just plain better but I always prefer power to come from synergy rather than flat stat bonuses.

Edited March 2, 2017 by George_Truman

[JerekKruger]

Boeroer, I agree totally with your thoughts. My disappointment at the Blade of the Endless Paths was helped by WM 1 and 2 with the presence of soulbound weapons and the other interesting unique weapons. I agree, make the rare and hard to find items (soulbound or not) come with unusual enchants that are powerful and interesting, and the problem Is solved. White March made great strides in that direction.

 

Yep, I think this solves the problem as it existed in PoE perfectly, and as you say the White March already started this process off.

 

As far as roleplaying within the context of the game-world goes, I feel like this change helps rather than hurts. Most realistic individuals would choose a weapon for its practicality/power rather than its aesthetics.

 

If we're talking real world examples: people with enough money will pay someone to have both. Of course perhaps there aren't enchanters in Eora capable of replicating the best enchantments, so perhaps that's not an option.

 

Limitations on enchanting also already exist in the game - you cannot give weapons speed, rending, wounding, etc. I don't see very much discontent with this and I assume it is because the benefits of the enchantments tend to be less opaque than +damage +accuracy.

 

No, you can be fairly certain that, excluding a handful of other players, no one knows the benefits of the various enchantments better than Boeroer. It's actually because Accuracy is by far and away the most important thing in PoE.

Edited March 2, 2017 by JerekKruger

[George_Truman]

In terms of pure damage accuracy has diminishing returns, as opposed to say speed enchants which compound upon one another up to max speed. I think there is pretty reasonable balance between the different components of weapon dps.

[JerekKruger]

In terms of pure damage accuracy has diminishing returns, as opposed to say speed enchants which compound upon one another up to max speed. I think there is pretty reasonable balance between the different components of weapon dps.

 

Give me some time and I'll run the numbers on this.

 

EDIT: or not, it's proving more time consuming that anticipated since it depends on attack speed bonus excluding the +20% from a weapon, accuracy without a weapon bonus, deflection of the enemy, damage modifiers and probably a few other factors that I haven't thought of yet.

 

My rough work so far suggests that you're probably right so long as the enemy's deflection isn't too much higher than your character's accuracy (missing is a pretty big damage down) and, of course, the character hasn't already got 0 recovery (fairly easy to do with dual wielding, harder with single weapon or two-hander).

Edited March 2, 2017 by JerekKruger