One Word - Multiclassing!

[Orillion]

Most of those talents were "when you use <ability that you might not even take>, a secondary effect happens." They were not by any means class-changing effects. Some, like the Darcozzi Paladini one, were down to being flavour more than function (woo, 5 DR against the least-used element in the game).

 

So, if asking for better distinction between orders/deities is selfish, then so too is it selfish to ask for a fish dinner when everybody else is having steak and they served you hot dogs with THREE(!) choices of condiment.

[Leeuwenhart]

Most of those talents were "when you use <ability that you might not even take>, a secondary effect happens." They were not by any means class-changing effects. Some, like the Darcozzi Paladini one, were down to being flavour more than function (woo, 5 DR against the least-used element in the game).

 

So, if asking for better distinction between orders/deities is selfish, then so too is it selfish to ask for a fish dinner when everybody else is having steak and they served you hot dogs with THREE(!) choices of condiment.

 

I dont know bout you guys... but where i live fish costs more then steak.

 

Regular vs regular that is

[Blades of Vanatar]

 

I don't like AD&D multiclassing. It's so boring.

 

I'm glad OBS is trying out something new that seems to lead to many interesting build options.

^This. And I'll go even further and say that for me AD&D 2e is a horrible system in every way. D&D 3e, 5e and other similar systems such as PoE1 and PoE2 are superior to 2e in every way. Thank God WotC won't allow the use of 2e in any future games.

It was designed for pnp not powergamey crpg players. The system is fine, its application in CRPGs is atrocious: I don't bring my vintage Schwann to a Dirt Bike race. But my Vintage Schwann still is sweet.

 

BUT BG2 was still a great game.

[Leeuwenhart]

Obi Schwann Kenobi here ^^^

 

;D

[Doppelschwert]

Most of those talents were "when you use <ability that you might not even take>, a secondary effect happens." They were not by any means class-changing effects. Some, like the Darcozzi Paladini one, were down to being flavour more than function (woo, 5 DR against the least-used element in the game).

 

That is mostly true for the talents of every class, so the paladin and priests still win with having sheer numbers.

My argument was not "Paladin talents were super awesome and distinctive", my argument was "They already put more work into additional stuff for paladins before, which will be kept around, so I don't see the need to expand on that until everyone is on the same page".

 

 

So, if asking for better distinction between orders/deities is selfish, then so too is it selfish to ask for a fish dinner when everybody else is having steak and they served you hot dogs with THREE(!) choices of condiment.

 

I agree that the word selfish doesn't fit very well, but I think there is a point to make that the situation you are describing is the reality of PoE1, only that paladins and priests have that steak and everyone else had the hot dogs. To be quite honest, I wouldn't mind if the situation was reversed in PoE2, since I don't see why priests and/or paladins should get more ressources than the other classes.

 

When priests and paladins have more choices and each choice is as well developed as the subclasses of everyone else again, then they would have gotten special attention yet again, and I don't see any rational reason to do this. Development is a zero sum game. Each class should get the same attention, so more choices necessarily should mean less ground breaking things for each one.

 

Just for context:

One of the monk subclasses was announced to revolve around consumables, and as described, merely changed some modifiers around. That alone seems like much less work than any of the special active abilities you can get in PoE1 for paladins or priests, AND they already announced that not every subclass will be groundbreakingly different.

Sorry, but fear of missing out for paladins/priests with this background just feels like a punch in the face to me. They will most probably come out with the best roleplaying possibilities again in the end, and already had their subclasses since PoE1.

[Blades of Vanatar]

Obi Schwann Kenobi here ^^^

 

;D

You know it!

[hilfazer]

You made something good.

You made a difference.

You got confirmation you're capable.

You've talked me into this

 

 

Multiclassing with level ratio

 

The idea is to make multiclass character maintain level ratio.

Level ratio = higher class level / lower class level.

Maximum level ratio is a constant real number >= 1.

If character's level ratio is lower or equal to maximum ratio player can choose what class to advance.

If not - player has to progress in class with lower level.

 

Why ratio and not absolute difference? Because ratio scales.

With difference of, say, 8 it is possible to create 9/1 character. If maximum level in that game was 10 we have "17/1" problem.

If max level in that game was 200 character would need to keep levels of both his classes very close to 100 - not much flexibility.

 

Features:

- character starts as single class and can multiclass later

- but not too late! If player would not be able to keep level ratio on maximum level, multiclassing is not possible

- "17/1" problem does not exist

- more flexible than AD&D, less than D&D3.5. The latter is an advantage in my eyes because character development in 3.5 felt like shopping and made me wonder if they should not just go classless.

- there is no "main class". Second class can have higher level than first if multiclassing is done early enough. Although it can be done with addition of second max ratio.

- racial favourite class can also be added with addition of extra maximum ratio - we would have favourite class level ratio that is used when favourite class level is higher. But it's not gonna happen in POE2.

- there can't be wizard 1/fighter 19 acting like a full class wizard. That's kinda silly as such character is not much of a wizard.

- lvl 1 abilities on low levels do not have to suck

 

Example:

Max level ratio = 2.0

Max level = 20

 

Fighter 6 multiclasses into druid and becomes F6/D1.

He needs to choose druid levels because 6 / 1 = 6 until F6/D3 ( 6 / 3 = 2.0 ).

Now he can choose either F7 or D4.

 

Wizard lvl 16 wants to multiclass into rogue but he can't because at level 20 his class ratio would be 16 / 4 = 4 which is greater than 2.

Not really a problem - player with that many levels in one class was not going to multiclass anyway, was he? He had plenty of time to make a decision.

 

Cleric 13 multiclasses into ranger and becomes C13/R1. It's possible becaue at max level he can be C13/R7 with level ratio of 13 / 7 = 1.86.

He can only level up as ranger until C13/R7.

 

 

It's less flexible than Obsidian's idea and at first glance it may look like a disadvantage but...

the problem of Obs idea is too much flexibility (hello 17/1 character!) so i don't think it's bad.

Also, the flexibility can be adjusted with max level ratio.

 

It can work together with power source.

[MaxQuest]

The idea is to make multiclass character maintain level ratio.

Level ratio = higher class level / lower class level.

Maximum level ratio is a constant real number >= 1.

If character's level ratio is lower or equal to maximum ratio player can choose what class to advance.

If not - player has to progress in class with lower level.

 

--------------------

 

Example:

Max level ratio = 2.0

Max level = 20

 

--------------------

 

Cleric 13 multiclasses into ranger and becomes C13/R1. It's possible becaue at max level he can be C13/R7 with level ratio of 13 / 7 = 1.86.

He can only level up as ranger until C13/R7.

So... what you did is cut quite a few x/y class combinations.

For the provided ratio = 2.0 and max level 20, that would be:

 

20/0 - remains

19/1 - is cut

18/2 - is cut

17/3 - is cut

16/4 - is cut

15/5 - is cut

14/6 - is cut

13/7 - remains

12/8 - remains

11/9 - remains

10/10 - remains

 

Hmm, I still want to believe that dipping can be balanced; and limiting possible combinations should be used as last resort.

[Ninjamestari]

Oh dipping can be balanced, the balancing solutions simply are liable to cause trouble.

[JFSOCC]

you guys with all your tables, the most important thing I think from multiclassing is the ability to get synergies you would otherwise miss

[Failedlegend]

19/1 Issue:

I'm sure there will be abilities that require Lvl 20 just like some required Max level in POE1, also as has been mentioned several times class abilities will scale with level.

 

 

 

2e Multi-classing is best:

Alternate your level ups, will simulate 2e Multi-classing where-as 2e multi-classing cannot simuate free-form

 

 

Free-form multi-classing makes no sense "lore/fluff-wise":

It makes just as much sense as why spellcasters "suddenly" learn new spells as they level up...because it's NOT suddenly, you gain new knowledge throughout your experiences during that level...I mean more than enough weapon, spell tomes, armor, etc. get dropped by enemies to practice with...if it suits you put one of those dropped items into the persons inventory to simulate them keeping it on-hand. POE2 is even better suited to it since according to the devs each class will have items specific to them like Mages had spellbooks.

 

If anything 2e style multi-classing is FAR more limiting "fluff-wise" as you can only mutli-class at level 1....for example sure I could make a rogue/cleric at level 1 if I want that "mechanically" but that only accounts for BACKstory fluff-wise, I can't adapt to anything that happens during my actual roleplaying of that character, for example I could choose to play a halfling rogue starting out but if he were to find religion and start training to become a Cleric of "X" I can't do that with 2e, 3.Xe is perfect for that, POE2's proposed MC system only allows for one "twist" which is a bit annoying...I'd advocate max 3 classes if only because I doubt they'd allow 4 (the most amount of classes I've seen used at my table). Of course I can see the issues with the "fake" levels granted so I'll tolerate the limit to 2 classes.

 

 

I don't want multi-classing in ANY form:

Don't use that feature, problem solved. I mean I didn't enjoy Durance or Pallegina despite them being pretty popular but I'm not upset they kept Pallegina for POE2 I'm just not going to bother using her. (With MC, Aloth & Eder I only have 2 slots to try the new companions anyways)

Edited February 23, 2017 by Failedlegend

[hilfazer]

 

The idea is to make multiclass character maintain level ratio.

Level ratio = higher class level / lower class level.

Maximum level ratio is a constant real number >= 1.

If character's level ratio is lower or equal to maximum ratio player can choose what class to advance.

If not - player has to progress in class with lower level.

 

--------------------

 

Example:

Max level ratio = 2.0

Max level = 20

 

--------------------

 

Cleric 13 multiclasses into ranger and becomes C13/R1. It's possible becaue at max level he can be C13/R7 with level ratio of 13 / 7 = 1.86.

He can only level up as ranger until C13/R7.

So... what you did is cut quite a few x/y class combinations.

For the provided ratio = 2.0 and max level 20, that would be:

 

20/0 - remains

19/1 - is cut

18/2 - is cut

17/3 - is cut

16/4 - is cut

15/5 - is cut

14/6 - is cut

13/7 - remains

12/8 - remains

11/9 - remains

10/10 - remains

 

Hmm, I still want to believe that dipping can be balanced; and limiting possible combinations should be used as last resort.

 

How much is cut depends on max ratio. It is possible to cut only 19/1 but i'm sure someone would start complaining about 18/2. Provided ratio is just an example, you could have used ratio of 1.0 to make your point stronger.

 

I guess you must be very upset about Obsidian cutting HUGE amount of options by not letting us multiclass as many classes as D&D 3.5. I understand why you don't want to loose any more options.

However, we don't know how many combinations we're going to need. Character customization is not only about picking class levels but also talents, subclasses and even skills. Well, there are also unique items, i guess it's at least worth mentioning.

 

You say limiting combinations is the last resort. I'd like to add that making single classers suffer because of multiclassing is not the last resort. It's unacceptable.

Currently Obsidian wants to do the unacceptable. I'd easily trade unacceptable for last resort.

 

But yeah, i'm also waiting for a solution that will eliminate problems without introducing any new.

[Failedlegend]

@Hilfazer: I repeat.

 

19/1 Issue:

I'm sure there will be abilities and/or that have lvl requirements just in POE1 some even required max level, also as has been mentioned several times class abilities will scale with level.

 

 

I don't want multi-classing in ANY form:

Don't use that feature, problem solved.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Failedlegend