Pleading for Rogue buff once more

[IamNOOB]

I got a basic question: is it easier to have a rogue with a bow OR a dualwielding one ? I got the feeling the two-dagger rogue of mine /she is lv 5/ kind of dies in 2 hits. But if I got 2other ranged heroes why get a third one? I wonder if you guys have a lot of ranged heroes or just 1-2 in your 6-man party.

[MaxQuest]

I got a basic question: is it easier to have a rogue with a bow OR a dualwielding one ? I got the feeling the two-dagger rogue of mine /she is lv 5/ kind of dies in 2 hits.

If you can AoE-paralyze those who come at your rogue, not only he will start surviving, but also will be critting a lot more often, and might go for battle-axes route. Annihilation property plus getting sneak-attacks/deathblows will allow you to lower your might score, and spend the free attribute points elsewhere. I am not advocating specifically for this build through, I just want to point that it completely depends on your party composition and the crowd-control at hand.

 

 

Also just to note: besides dw and ranged, there is also an auxiliary option of going for 1h+barricade.

 

 

But if I got 2other ranged heroes why get a third one?

If you have enough cc to keep enemies at bay, and can drop res/con in the favor of dps.

Or if you have a chanter with Sure-Handed/Aefyllath.

 

 

I wonder if you guys have a lot of ranged heroes or just 1-2 in your 6-man party.

My favorite is having 3 melee and 3 ranged.

frontline: res_tank/sup + fort_tank/offdps + dps (or cc)

backline: cc/dps + sup/per-rest-aoe-dmg + cc (or dps)

 

And if I need more bodies for blocking, I can always paralyze or confuse enemies for my advantage. Or summon Iridescent Scarab Figurine.

Edited January 3, 2017 by MaxQuest

[QuiteGoneJin]

With the length of time that rogues have been on the bottom I am surprised no ones made a good balanced rogue overhaul mod on the nexus. 

[the streaker]

While thinking about great single target DPS: it might be that the cipher is also better than the rogue at higher levels. Think about it:

 

- +40% base damage via soul whip + biting whip without any afflictions etc.

 

- +20% Savage Attack

 

- +50% attack speed via Time Parasite, lasts a long time

 

- Soul Ignition is not super great, but good single target damage when burn DR is low.

 

- Recall Agony. Few use it, but it's a powerful multiplicative raw damage "lash" against single targets. A bit like wounding.

 

- Body Attunement lowers the enemies DR

 

- Disintegration provides a lot of single target damage

 

Plus some nice ACC and defense buffs and disables. What do you think?

 

Well, the cipher's damage multipliers come nowhere near the rogue's. Then you start looking at all the other amazing powers the cipher has to offer, and realize that the cipher is far better suited to only doing enough damage to build enough focus to use those amazing powers. There's no doubt the cipher is a stronger class overall, or if judged in isolation.

 

Honestly the cipher + rogue is quite good, and is the main reason I hardly ever used druids. A druid has no place in my party. Part-time single target DPS when I can get a dedicated person for that role, part-time caster with substantially inferior spells to the wizard, cipher and priest. The jack-of-all-trades would be welcome in a 2-man or 4-man party, but not necessary in a group of 6 where I can have a specialist for every role.

 

Having said that, the rogue suffers from the opposite, too focused on just one thing. They should get some AoE skills to round them out a bit.

 

I got a basic question: is it easier to have a rogue with a bow OR a dualwielding one ? I got the feeling the two-dagger rogue of mine /she is lv 5/ kind of dies in 2 hits. But if I got 2other ranged heroes why get a third one? I wonder if you guys have a lot of ranged heroes or just 1-2 in your 6-man party.

 

Rogue works well with opening arquebus shots while the rest of your party throws out disabling abilities, then go around picking off disabled enemies in melee. If you just throw a rogue into melee against monsters, he'll probably die a lot at low levels. Takes a bunch of micromanagement to make it work.

[Elric Galad]

Druid are not part time caster and part time melee damages.

 

They are full time casters that has a melee damages hobby for their off-time.

 

Their casting is not significantly inferior to other casters. Wizz are a bit more specialized than druid toward CC and AoE damages, but they don't have the awesome support capabilities of the druid. Priests are unparalelled support class anyway, bur their CC is poor.

 

Cipher can't just chain class spells like druid do. They just don't play in the same league for this reason. Cipher spells are very good, but I see no Cipher CC spell on par with Relentless storm.

 

Druid is basically a "jack-of-all trades, master of most".

Edited January 5, 2017 by Elric Galad

[the streaker]

Right, wizard does CC and AoE better than druid. Cipher spells are amazing. Priest spells are amazing. There is no other niche that the druid does better than the others, so why would I choose him unless I'm going for a party of 4 casters and for some reason don't want to double-up on cipher or wizard? Hence, master of none.

Edited January 5, 2017 by the streaker

[Elric Galad]

You don't have to be the absolute master of something to worth something.

 

Druid can do something like 90% of wizard's job while providing some support. I think this is about as good.

 

And no, Cipher's spells are not that great except Amplified Wave and Mindweb, which both empty your power pool. Cipher spells are nice, but I won't name any in my top #5 list. But hey, I love cipher for their versatility.

 

Rogue is probably still #1 single target DPS and that does not save him from being inferior. When you are a one trick pony, you need to do your trick more than 10% better than anyone.

 

Some people here also think rogue single target DPS is okay, but they should have other tricks (like striking from invisibility, better riposte, deceptions...) or at least better DPS burst.

 

Relentless Storm is also the best CC spell in a number of situations, for example when ennemies are not packed. Given that wizz have awesome CC, he simply does not have a tool like this in his weaponry.

 

It's like saying pal are inferior because they are a compromise between fighter and priest...

 

In my parties, I have no room for absolute specialist which takes an entire slot for doing their stuff just a bit better. I'd rather take another character who can do this about as well and provide other major benefits.

 

And druid party survivability buffs are noticeable enough to worth trading against wizz.

 

But of course, everyone has his own playstyle. And you have to remember that for me the greatest competitors for rogues are rangers

(druid single target DPS is great, especially early on, but too unreliable for me)

[Boeroer]

I think Relentless Storm is one of the best CC spells in the game while also doing good damage. Calling the World's Maw is also very good. Most CC spells of the druid also deal damage, which is nice.

[Dr <3]

Returning to the trail, how are going your experiments ti demonstrate rogue's superiority in the DPS department?

 

Btw i have always felt that the druid have very good cc spells actually. Returning storm is permastun and High DMG vs isolated targets, rentless storm is One of best cc of the game ( recidive stun in huge aoe), overwhelming wave have a base stun duration of 10 seconds more or less, and you have even your petrify spell that comes 1 level earlier than the wizards gaze of adragan. And all his spells actually do also pretty good dmg. Why you consider him inferior?

Edited January 5, 2017 by Dr <3

[Elric Galad]

Returning to the trail, how are going your experiments ti demonstrate rogue's superiority in the DPS department?

 

Btw i have always felt that the druid have very good cc spells actually. Returning storm is permastun and High DMG vs isolated targets, rentless storm is One of best cc of the game ( recidive stun in huge aoe), overwhelming wave have a base stun duration of 10 seconds more or less, and you have even your petrify spell that comes 1 level earlier than the wizards gaze of adragan. And all his spells actually do also pretty good dmg. Why you consider him inferior?

Mostly because of alacrity.

Alacrity + Eldricht Aim + Chained Fast casted Shadowflames is quite disgusting.

 

Sure, druid can do this with items, but then you have to consider Fighter as the top CC class due to crazy accuracy and scrolls ^^

 

Wall of many colors is harder to use than Relentless but it is recursive long duration CC. Probably the most powerful CC spell of the game (not as convenient as Relentless of course).

 

But I'm just saying Wizz is a bit better.

 

Druid also suffer a bit for having most of his best spells at levels 4-5, which limit a bit their use. If only there were metamagic talents...

Edited January 5, 2017 by Elric Galad

[Dr <3]

Ok , chaincast shadowflsmes with daom is a fair point.

[the streaker]

Returning to the trail, how are going your experiments ti demonstrate rogue's superiority in the DPS department?

 

Btw i have always felt that the druid have very good cc spells actually. Returning storm is permastun and High DMG vs isolated targets, rentless storm is One of best cc of the game ( recidive stun in huge aoe), overwhelming wave have a base stun duration of 10 seconds more or less, and you have even your petrify spell that comes 1 level earlier than the wizards gaze of adragan. And all his spells actually do also pretty good dmg. Why you consider him inferior?

 

Me? I don't think there's much point in continuing the testing, see page 3. Re: wizard vs. druid, it's pretty well unanimously accepted that the wiz is a better caster than the druid, so not sure why we need to rehash that same old arguments again, especially since they've only gotten worse in 3.0 due to spell mastery (can't spam those damage spells).

[Elric Galad]

Well if we go to the "pretty well unanimously accepted" route, Rogue is also pretty unanimouslt accepted as the weakest class in endgame.

 

But I agree that wizz are considered as better caster overall.

 

Usually, wizz are seen as #1 or #2 best classes (competing with priest), while druid are #3. But Rogue are usually seen as #11 (I'll add the link later, sorry.)

 

 

That does not mean wizz are strictly better. And the main advantage of druid over wizz is not really spiritshift but a couple of very powerful party wide buff (moonwell, Form of the Delemgan and possibly nature's bounty). In a group without a priest (which I don't do), I would pick druid instead of wizz.

 

1 per encounter Form of the Delemgan at high level is just incredibly useful. Fast casting 8DR that stacks with zealous endurance is just that good.

 

So for me druid vs wizz is a matter of taste. They basically play is the same league.

[the streaker]

In a group without a priest (which I don't do), I would pick druid instead of wizz.

 

 

Exactly what I keep saying... in an optimized party, you'd take a wiz and a priest. Not a druid. If you're looking for flavor, you could go druid for fun, but there's no point in discussing what's fun and what's not.

[Elric Galad]

I didn't say this,

No priest => Druid

Does not logically imply :

Priest => No druid

 

In case you have already a priest, secondary caster could be either druid or wizz, druid being more defensive.

 

If we were really talking about optimal party, I wouldn't even consider limiting to 2 casters. You'll want a maximum number of casters, plus a couple of slightly tankier damage dealers.

 

For flly optmized endgame party, you'll want something like :

1 paladin or chanter

1 chanter

1 priest

1 druid

2 wizz

 

So not even close from considering bringing a rogue.

 

But we're not speaking about optimal party, we're discussing about a Class bringing enough advantages for its particular role to counterbalance its defect.

 

Rogue is not that bad in this aspects. Just it has not enough superiority in its speciality to balance its unability to do anything else (party support and resistance mostly).

Edited January 6, 2017 by Elric Galad

[the streaker]

Well, if you enjoy bringing your druid along for the ride, it's not my place to get in your way Likewise, there is plenty of reason to consider bringing a top single-target DPS member along in a 6-man group. In many difficult fights, there are either a few high value targets, or one boss with high defenses. This is when you need single-target DPS, high accuracy, and to be able to do it in a brief window of time when your debuffs manage to penetrate the high defenses.

 

Anyways, I found out why sabres weren't giving me the damage I expected - one of the latest patches reduced the base damage and added a +20% additive damage bonus instead... total nerf to sabre-wielding rogue, for god knows what reason. Stilettos are definitely the better choice, then. Probably Misery's End + Vent Pick, or Bleak Fang. Durgan-refined weapons combined with high dexterity put your attack speed and crit rate through the roof.

 

Rogue actually ends up getting the useful talents in the early levels, so for the last two talents it makes sense to take quick switch and extra slots so you can fire 2 or 3 pistols (Aumaua or not) for a nice DPS spike while the front line settles down and the debuffs take full effect.

[Elric Galad]

Yup, saber nerf didn't exactly helped the rogue.

Small weapons, or maybe axes could be the way to go now.

 

Quickswitch + Firearms is probably a good idea to add some spike damages to a rogue build.

 

And sorry, I forgot to add the link with class relative power thread:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/88395-what-are-the-most-powerful-classes-in-303/

[Shadowfinger]

I also think that a rework or some buffs are needed. Per rest abilities are especially annoing as a rouge. What aout giving him more skill points? RP-wise it is pretty mandatory to get high stealth and mechanics, but the game is so combat orienteted, so some more points would help a little in that regard. Rogues should be deadly if getting the enemy on the wrong foot, but also have a lot of skills they could help with.

[Elric Galad]

Skill monkey might not be the best idea... I want Rogue to have a decent role in combat. These +2 mechanics they are the only class to receive are enough skillmonkeyness for me. This little +2 is very precious without making rogue necessary.

 

My top #3 wished buff (taking into account the presumed dev difficulty to implement it):

 

#1 Stackable deep wound

 

#2 Cancellable Feign Death

 

#3 30% riposte on miss.

 

And 15% hit to crit Dirty Fighting as a bonus, because it shouldn't be that hard to change...

 

Even if one think rogue are enough powerful, I think these abilities would deserve a buff.

 

I don't like per rest abilities, but with several charges, they are not that bad for rogue's raw power...

Edited January 13, 2017 by Elric Galad

[JerekKruger]

Anyways, I found out why sabres weren't giving me the damage I expected - one of the latest patches reduced the base damage and added a +20% additive damage bonus instead... total nerf to sabre-wielding rogue, for god knows what reason.

 

The reason was that sabres were basically the only one-handed weapon choice, and I think that if you're aiming for a balanced system it wasn't a bad choice, but I agree that it probably hit Rogues disproportionately. I suspect sabres will still be the best DPS weapon for Rogues if, for no other reason, that there are so many excellent sabre choices in the game. Resolution early on is great and I think Bittercut is still the top tier one-handed weapon from a DPS perspective.

[Elric Galad]

Bittercut is great and very reliable, but I suspect wounding, annihilating or fast weapons to be superior.

 

Still, these couple of spells from bittercut provide decent AoE damages.

[Elric Galad]

Double post.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Elric Galad

[JerekKruger]

Good point regarding Wounding. I suspect dual Drawn in Springs is one of the best choices for a Rogue.

 

Not sure about annihilating. You're trading +50% on a crit for +25% on every hit (including grazes) with Bittercut + Spirit of Decay, so the question is what sort of crit rate can you achieve and, perhaps more importantly, what kind of crit rate can you achieve against higher deflection enemies (who are generally the harder fights where performance matters most). Also all annihilating weapons are slashing only I think, so Bittercut also benefits from being dual damage.

 

If you're dual wielding and have two-weapon style then fast is most likely only important if you want to wear heavier armour, as it shouldn't be hard to reach 100% recovery otherwise.

[Elric Galad]

Probably Tidefall + legendary + lash + alacrity (potion/twin stings) + gauntlet is the very top. 0 recovery is even more fun with 2 hander ^^

 

Coordinating + Stunning double Clad' spear has some potential too, due to Stun being also a strong def debuff.

 

Drawn in Spring can get a +4 accuracy for a main character by the way ^^

Edited January 13, 2017 by Elric Galad

[the streaker]

There's no need to guess because we already know weapon attack speeds. Stilettos/daggers are much faster than 2handers and sabres, so when you (almost) remove recovery time from the calculation, DPS is all about the swing speed. Annihilation mods only add +0.5x damage onto a long list of damage mods, so they're not the ultimate weapon mod for a rogue.