6-5 is the opposite of easy

[Darkren]

Any tips?  

 

Just got caught back up, and I am probing at it.

 

Got there with my B team, I go through with them first and use my A team for the hard setting, then only use one or two for legendary.

 

Lini, Sajan, Selah, Amiri, Lem, Harsk

 

The problem I am running into is that you have to explore all cards out of the location deck, and all the henchmen and the villian all hit the entire party.

 

I am running into empty hands by the 3rd or 4th explore. 

 

Any tips?

[Nerevarine]

I ran same team, minus Lem and beat it on first try.

Lini and Seelah had two cures each and I also had a Shaman on both Amiri and Sajan, allowing me to recharge cards across the whole party, so the BYA roll on Warden of Runes didn't matter too much (moreover, Sajan and Amiri would ignore that damage).

I did run into the Villain a few times before clearing the entire deck and I had unlucky rolls, having to discard my hand a few times, still, I managed to keep all of my characters alive.

The "bury a card at the start of the turn" part sucks, but there are some cards that you can sacrifice without feeling too bad, because of how the scenario goes. Moreover, at times, due to BYA damage and such, you might start a turn with 0 cards, so you kinda "win" there.

Revelation Quill is a good item to have near the end, allowing you to re-arrange the last 5 cards in a way that you will encounter Karzoug last.

Speaking Karzoug, anti-fire armours are helpful.

Additionally, any cards against Giants from AD3 might be useful (I had Black Arrow Longbow, Jakardros Sovark and Vale Temros, so there was some dice against Wardens).

Last tip would be not to worry too much about BYA checks against Wardens and Karzoug - even if you discard some blessings, you may still fail the roll and take the damage, except that you lost another card beforehand.

Hope any of this helps.

[elcoderdude]

Scouting and rearranging the deck pay off big-time in 6-5. A key to winning is fighting Karzoug as few times as possible.

 

Magic Spyglass, Revelation Quill, Scrying, Augury... these are your friends.

[aksFourpaws]

Besides massive scouting, for me the Rings of Protection, Sihedron Rings and the always popular Adamantine Plate Armor took a lot of the pressure out of the fights.

 

Of course with an A and B Team those cards might be really thin streched.

[Darkren]

I found a pretty good method.

 

I was running it with a 6 man team... meaning 1 dargon, karzoug, and 5 rune wardens.

 

Too many rune wardens.   Just took too many resources.

 

I ran it with a 2 man team.

 

1 dragon, karzoug, and 1 rune warden.

 

Cake.

[Ripe]

 

Too many rune wardens.   Just took too many resources.

Too many resources how?

 

Yes, when encountered everyone had to take Constitution/Fortitude check but individual success/failure should have no effect on everyone else. That "Damage dealt by the Warden of Runes is dealt to each character at this location" power only apply to failing a combat check! It should not apply to damage from "Before you act" phase. If it does then it's a bug...

[Darkren]

simple math.

 

You face 1 rune warden in the deck, you deal with it 1 time.

 

You face 5 rune wardens in the deck, you deal with it 5 times.

 

so, with 2 characters, it is a 12 card location deck.

 

Revelation quill works on almost 1/2 of the deck.

 

with 6 characters, it is a 16 card deck.  quill works on a little less then 1/3 of the deck.

 

Scrying and augury are ok, but they have a MAJOR flaw.   if it's not the card type specified, it goes back in the deck.  IF it's for villians, and the only one uncovered is karzoug...  the rest gets shuffled into the deck, and karzoug goes on top.

 

Oddly enough, harsk's scout ability is decent here.

 

There is also a older ally who reveals the top card on a recharge, and lets you encounter if if you discard.  There is also the guy that soawns the sand point devil, hsi ability is very good here.

 

In any case.  1st character goes.   encounters rune warden.   everyone rolls.  some had to recharge to pass, some had resist, some had good enough skills.

Now the fight.   

So the character that drew the rune warden has to beat it.  Because, if they don't, EVERYONE takes 10 damage.  AND the rune warden goes back.

So, 1st character beats it, had to use some resources.  

2nd character draws rune warden.  Yes,  that is kinda how it works when you have a 16 card deck, and 5 of the cards in it are rune wardens.  

 

So everyone rolls AGAIN.   reources are getting pretty scarce by the end of this second volley.

and AGAIN, it HAS to be beaten, or EVERYONE suffers MAJOR damage.  The check is 23, so it WILL take resources.

 

Let's say it gets beaten again, and the third character goes...   another rune warden.

 

Yes, it has happened 3 times out of 15.  

 

How do you think things are looking at that point?

 

Waiting and recovering is a SEMI valid option, but every turn I do, I am losing cards that I won't get back until the scenerio is done.

 

So, yes, individual success/failure does effect everyone else, ESPECIALLY when rune wardens hit everyone if you fail the combat check. 

And each character that doesn't succeed on their own is also losing cards.   and if any use cards and still fail, that's extra cards.  

It all adds up, and it all adds up VERY quickly.

 

it is MUCH easier (for me and my play style) with 2 characters.  

The party that did the best so far was Lem/Sajan.  Lem played the buff bot...  did not explore unless I knew it was not a fight, and sajan just recharged every single one of those blessings that adds two die to dex combat checks.  

 

Now the trick is finding a way to get one character to carry a weaker one through.

 

Oh, a side note....   wand of treasure finding rocks your socks here.  Great way to whittle down the deck in a non threatening manner.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Darkren

[elcoderdude]

A six-character party is not going to draw 3 Rune Wardens in a row that often. It's a 16-card deck with only 7 banes.

 

If your hand is depleted, you don't have to explore. This only costs you a card.

 

Scrying/Augury -- you search for monsters, not villains, right? Karzoug is a monster. And if you find Karzoug, you definitely don't put him on top. The whole point is to put him on the bottom. Then you're all set.

 

Not sure why you say everyone takes 10 damage on a fail against a warden... characters only take as much damage as you fail by... characters in deck 6 should make 23 checks pretty handily.

 

The downside of using fewer characters is everyone buries more cards. With 6 characters, to get through 16 cards, you could explore 1/turn and still have no one bury more than three cards. With 2 characters, it could be 8 each at that velocity. (EDIT: Pointed out to me that actually that number is 6).

 

Also, fewer characters means fewer blessings available for checks. But, like you say, the upside is fewer banes.

 

It's beatable with every character count. In the card game, I've won with two 6-character parties and a four-character party. Every time, a key was fighting Karzoug as few times as possible (which, admittedly, sometimes is just luck).

Edited December 26, 2016 by elcoderdude

[Darkren]

IT draws them 3 in a row more often than you give it credit for.  Seriously, try it with 2 characters, you will see the difference.  MUCH easier.

 

And the point is, it takes alot of resources to hit the 23.   So the first one, yes.   The 2nd one, maybe, the third one...  eh...  And with 6 chars, you have to hit the check 4 more times than with 2.  

In what world is making the check 5 times easier than making it once?

 

As for everyone taking 10...   23 is high enough that you will not have a 100% chance.   So you might roll and miss it by 1.   you might roll and miss it by 8.   but there is a decent enough chance you will fail, as the success rate is not 100%  When it comes to random number generators...   if you can fail, you better assume you will fail.

 

Less characters do NOT bury more cards.  less characters have a smaller deck to go through.   More characters have a bigger deck.  IT took about 4 turns to win with 2 characters.

 

As far as blessings for checks...  that's why I said, Lem was the buff bot, and Sajan was the attacker.  No problem with buffs for checks.  I had buffs for days, since it was two chracters and, with less characters, turns came sooner...  meaning hands recharged faster.

 

You are right, it IS beatable with 6.   But it is easier with 2.   Try it.  I strongly suggest the Lem/ Sajan combo...  Sajan is just a boss here, if you have the power to resist damage outside of combat.   And Lem, just recharge your entire hand before it is his turn again...  he is not meant to fight...  he can help burn through boons, but do not engage any banes with him.

 

Wait, Scrying can put the bane on the bottom?  That would make it a different game.  To think, I just brute forced everything...

[Ripe]

First of all, depending on your party you may not need to bother with passing the initial check since Amiri, Sajan and Celestial Sorceror Seoni all have ability to ignore that damage and few others can take 1 point of damage without issue. So you don't waste resource on trying to pass that check with any of them.

 

Also hitting 23 should not be too much of a problem at that point... even without Lem in the party.

 

Scrying and Augury are great because you'll put Karzoug on the bottom. Once you find him and put him there you stop using them (meaning they're dead cards) but you can still use Quill, Spyglass and Magic Spyglass to rearrange top cards the way it's most beneficial. Seelah's Crusade ability is also great here... until you find Karzoug and put it on the bottom with Augury/Scrying. Then you can't use it anymore unless you took upgrade that allow you to put the card under top card (which you probably should have).

 

Make sure you have enough heals (Lem is great here... give him Mass cure and cast it every turn by not recharging it!).

 

Yes, getting through 5 Wardens is a chore but you more or less have all the time in the world... so if someone is in bad shape and can't possibly beat him: don't explore.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Ripe

[elcoderdude]

@Darkren -- Yeah, my numbers were off: but in your example each character buried 2 cards. For six players, that's 12 turns. There's a good chance you can get through 16 cards in 12 turns.

 

I'm frankly stunned you played the entire adventure path without realizing Scrying and Augury let you put the cards you search for on the top OR the bottom of the deck (they all have to go to the same place -- no splitting them up). It's the main point of these spells -- if you can't draw the villain/henchman to top, you put the banes you do find on the bottom, where usually you won't have to face them.

[Darkren]

Yeah, I play fairly aggressively.  With my A team (Ezren/Selah/Valeros/Kyra/meriseil/seoni) each one can typically solo their own location, or they could up to AD 5.  SO I never really thought about putting anything on the bottom...  rather, I always put them right on the top and chewed through locations as fast as I could.

 

The weakest would be merisel most of the time...  but free evade at all times, sooo...  yeah.

 

I think that's why 6.5 threw me so hard...  it's a completely different play style to get through.

 

I like it.

[Ripe]

Not to mention that by every card you put on bottom is basically a free explore... making you go through location much faster.

[Darkren]

Yeah, I didn't realize it at the time, wasn't organic enough for me.  

I'd just go through the regular henchmen if they came up.  

 

It would have saved me alot of heart ache with the barriers.

[Ripe]

On the other hand... kudos to you for playing it hardcore.

[Darkren]

It's not like I had perma death on.  

I just wasn't paying attention =P

 

It's all just math...  until AD 5 and 6...  then the numbers aren't so pretty...

[Edannan]

So, I just recently spent a few days working on the Heroic and Legendary versions of this fight. Normal wasn't all that hard, honestly. My party was Harsk, Seelah, Lini, and Seoni. TBH, Lini and Seoni ended up being there for nothing more than Scry/Revelation Quill/Amulet of Inescapable Location/Blessings. Harsk and Seelah were the ones doing the fighting. Between Seelah and Lini there was more than enough healing. On normal I just powered through, using the deck manipulation to put Karzoug on the bottom and making sure I was set up properly when I hit the Blue Dragon.

 

Doing Heroic and Legendary (Where it's 2x your party in henchment) required me to grind a little bit. Fortunately, Harsk already had a Ring of Protection, and Lini had the Ibis Lamellar, so they didn't really care about the Warden of Runes. I had to grind up a Greater Ring of Protection for Seoni, and a Ring of Energy Resistance for Harsk (Gave the RoP to Seelah).

 

On Legendary, Harsk was the only one killing things, with a Slaying Bow, Leopard Leather, Ring of Contortions, and a Belt of Physical Might making sure he could kill what he was fighting. Even still, it took probably a dozen tries, as any small mistake screwed you over (Accidentally flicking the die for a combat because you forgot you'd done all the checks), and there were a few bugs (Twice I had situations where I was about to kill Karzoug, but the game bugged after he did all his BYA checks and just ended the combat with him undefeated).

 

It's definitely rough, and a complete change from how the rest of the game runs.

[Nerevarine]

Used same party for heroic and legendary, had insanely good luck with heroic, only running into Karzoug twice (both on 2 cards left).

Legendary run was bit more difficult, running into Karzoug quite a few times (and had to restart on first attempt due to progression break).

Don't have Lem, so I ran Lini for heals + Greater Aid/Restoration/Blessings and occasional Fiery Weapon from Emerald Codex, exploring only when I knew there's no bane on top.

Honestly, the scenario isn't that difficult. Besides Greater Aid, I have no treasure cards, nor did I have Revelation Quill/Auguries/Scryings (I had the basic Spyglass on Amiri).

 

Running more characters does increase the number of Wardens, but it also gives you more blessings to play (essentially making it impossible to fail combat checks with your "explorers". It also considerably lowers the number of cards you have to bury on a single character. Last thing is that it gives you more powers, spells and items to throw around, such as a party full of deck rearranging cards to put Karzoug at bottom every time he comes up. I just personally don't have the patience to run a full party (and my full party doesn't have good-enough build to be able to roll decent combat checks on anyone besides Amiri).

[Borissimo]

Scenario 6-5 boils down to this: your entire goal in life is to cast Augury/Scrying, find Karzoug, and send him to the bottom of the deck. Once you do that, just make sure you A) don't fail any combat checks, and B) don't die. But as long as you only encounter Karzoug once (maybe twice if you're unlucky), a typical party at this point should have enough healing to sustain itself.

 

Here are some minor tips to help achieve that overarching objective:

 

1) Use lots of scouting -- as much scouting as you can -- not just Augury and Scrying. The idea is that if you find Karzoug with a spyglass or the revelation quill, you can just pass turns until somebody can Augur or Scry Karzoug to the bottom of the deck.

 

2) The Medusa Mask, if you still have it, is very effective here. Give it to somebody without scouting abilities and have them hang onto it. Since the Medusa Mask doesn't say "evade," it can be used against Karzoug.

 

3) Don't be afraid to pass turns. It's better to bury an extra card than to encounter Karzoug.

 

4) Use the Revelation Quill early (I disagree with the poster who says to wait and use it at the end). It gives you a great shot at finding Karzoug so that you can put him to the bottom with Augury or Scrying later. As a bonus, you can clear away some other cards first.

 

5) This might be the only time you ever want to bring Raise Dead with you. Because Raise Dead can return buried cards, you can actually get back cards that were buried by the location power. Assuming you recharge Raise Dead, it might even be possible to "go infinite" in this scenario and never die.

 

Good luck!

Edited December 27, 2016 by Borissimo

[Darkren]

Honestly, I had the best results running it with 2 characters.  

 

legendary, you go with 6, it adds 12 cards.   

 

Who wants to explore a 22 card deck with the same card?

 

You don't need all those extra blessings, you just need 1 good attacker, and 1 good buffer, or two decent attackers.

 

Lini + amiri.   Lem + sajan.  Harsk and selah together.  Valeros and ezren.  If you want to risk spells, use seoni as the attacker.

The hardest character to use is meriseil here, since she is meant for soloing.  Unless you want to solo the deck, then she might do ok.

 

But if you do that, and have the resistance items, you don't even need heals.

 

And sajan is a star here.  He shines.  HE can likely even solo this deck very easily.

 

My sajan has 6 or 7 blessings of erastil...  the one that adds two dice to combat dexterity checks.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Darkren

[cwheezy]

Imo its best to skip your turn if you dont know what is next in the deck, because you might get molly whopped by karzoug. I run with a ton of augury and scrys because those spells are bonkers good and spyglasses for the non magical lame o's. 

 

The annoying part for me was I picked all the backstab stuff for merisiel only to be surprised that it was total trash here, great.

[Eumaios]

Twice I had situations where I was about to kill Karzoug, but the game bugged after he did all his BYA checks and just ended the combat with him undefeated.

 

 

 

This happened to me repeatedly with my six character party.  I was saving the legendary run for Into the Eye with my four character group until my six character party caught up, but then I stopped playing in the hopes that this ever vanishing Karzoug would be resolved.  Any word?

 

Also, the last scenario isn't all that tough as long as you're patient.  Keep people healed and make sure you fight when you want to fight.  Get Karzoug on the bottom of the deck and then make sure nothing happens to reshuffle it.  I've finished it up through heroic (or whatever the middle thing is called) with one group and then I stopped a few weeks ago until I was fairly certain the Karzoug thing was fixed.  My six person party faced him as the last person in the deck three times where all the pre-fight stuff would resolve and then he'd just go back into the deck before battle.  At that point, I looked around for the hidden camera and group of psychologist taking notes on the effect of major frustration on a gamer.

[Eumaios]

I'd apologize for the bump, but no one seems to care about this joint much anyhow. I sat down tonight for the first time in at least a couple of weeks to play some Pathfinder and beat the last scenario on legendary. Good times! Everything went like clockwork. I mean, you ditch a lot of cards, but it's all about balancing the clock against smart exploration. I only faced Karzoug once and it didn't do that weird thing where he keeps getting shuffled back into a deck in which he's the only card. I knew he was last 'cause I put him there, got to him with my druid armed with Sunburst and Val jonesin' for blood. Ezren used Staff of Hungry shadows for 15 and then 13, and Karzoug went down like a cheap hooker during fleet week.