The US Election, Part XI

[HoonDing]

Libruls bus in illegal muslims to vote and after voting they dance in the streets.

[BruceVC]

Libruls bus in illegal muslims to vote and after voting they dance in the streets.

 

 

Its these types of comments from you I find redeem your more offensive ones ...you do make me laugh at times " illegal Muslims " 

[imaenoon]

Naw, Bruce, the only good thing I can say is that Stein is paying for the recount and bilking clueless libs to do it. I think it's simply bad for the country to have a recount under these circumstances. It perpetuates the idea that the election is not legitimate without any credible evidence, something Stein herself admits while still insisting it's to make sure votes count. I would be against this if Trump lost. In fact, while Trump could have said, "As long as the returns are validated and legitimate, I will accept them," he instead talked non-sense about suspense and whatnot. So now we've come full circle.

 

I won't give a direct quote, but I told a group of people on July 29th of this year that I would respond to Clinton winning the election by referring to her as "my president," praying for her continued good health, and affording her all the respect due her office. We salute the president, not the person in our country just like we salute the officer and not the man (or woman if you are one). So, since I'm accepting everyone else at his or her word, I can assure you, I would definitely be against this recount under these conditions either way. ...And I've absolutely no doubt that Trump's going to prevail in a recount, so it's not that I think Hilary's gonna win.

 

However, fair enough. When Trump wins the recount, it will be an opportunity for folks who claim it will lend legitimacy to pay up on their bet. ...Or will there be some reason for yet another recount? Perhaps not in three states that could swing the vote their way, but only in the districts where they think they can overturn the election? Maybe Broward county?

Edited November 28, 2016 by imaenoon

[licketysplit]

 

 

Can you imagine the vitriol if Trump were challenging the results in three states which all three needed to be overturned and the combined total was 90-100k votes? I know everyone here is possessed of personal integrity and would have called for a recount in such a case (well, a slight dig, but I do hope that's a true statement nonetheless). Yeah, Trump's a tool, but people in these parts are bat**** crazy and some of them have visceral hatred for the guy. Geez, get a grip.

 

However, I do have to admit that Romney's speech about Trump during the primary was pretty funny and a lot of it was spot on. Trump *did* condone torture and talk about targeting the families of terrorists, which I think most Americans, including probably the majority of his voters, would balk at doing. I just think most of supporters, even the die hard ones, didn't take all these comments seriously. Someone cited that as the dichotomy of this election where his supporters always assume he's being figurative and the press always assumes he's being literal. I just think he's a bit unhinged, but I still voted for him. I'd like the Clintons to be out of politics, at least the two older ones. Chelsea... we'll have to wait and see about her. Any nerd rage coming my way will only serve to nourish my soul. Anyhow, Romney's philippic against Trump.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/04/us/politics/mitt-romney-speech.html?_r=0

 

 

 

Yeha.

 

And, also, as for 'proof' of illegal immigrants voting.   How about the fact that President of the United States ENCOURAGED them to vote illegally so Obama knew FULL WELL illegals vote.

 

Seriously, I know as a Kanadian that if a few million Amerikans came to my country and voted ILLEGALLY I would not be  a happy camper.Does that make me an anti Amerikan bigot?

Guys its seems fatuous to keep objecting to the recount  now, I was watching an interview with Sanders and he said this is perfectly legal and the Republicans may ask for one in NC?

 

Lets get this recount over and done so we can move on to addressing other issues. I cant see even if Hilary wins these states how does this even change her standing in electoral colleges. She has already won the popular vote but Trump will still win the overall election

 

Ah Bruce..it's about reputation and ego. Hillary will do anything to undermine her enemies, She is a sociopath who demands to get her turn. This is all about dismantling Trump's cred. That's all this is. The actual vote count is not her goal. Let me be clear: her behavior now is PRECISELY why she was not elected.

[imaenoon]

I'll be honest, LetyS, I don't think Hillary really wanted to get in on this. This would have to be an awfully long con to overturn the election. Honest to goodness, Stein has to be taken seriously. She managed to get money for the Green party, cast doubt on Trump, and force Clinton's hand to take action that will with almost absolute certainty not help her or the Democrats in any way. I'm an idealist, but I have to admire clever work when I see it, and this is clever. I would rather see Clinton in the white house than Stein, but this is truly genius. She and her staff are truly to be commended. I say that with complete sincerity. I think it's devious, but there are some master strokes that you have to own when you see them, and this is it. If anything can actually put the Green party on the road to viability, this is it. It probably won't (understatement) but it's a start. Both the Republicans and the Democrats better take heed of this because it's apparent that Johnson didn't have the chops for the campaign (I still like the guy, but he really melted down in the last month), but Stein is going long and she just might make it.

[Hurlshort]

"Winning with grace."

 

Like the Dems/Hill shills are losing with grace?

 

btw, he's right. Who knows what the exact number is but no doubt there was a ridiculous amount of illegal immigrants voting in this election. With all this whining about how Hillary won the 'popular vote' and all these accusations of Trump cheating to win he has every right to point out that it is the Demos who cheat.

 

 

Who cares, they lost.  I do think it is dumb that they are bothering with a recount in Wisconsin.  But there is no evidence that a ridiculous amount of illegal immigrants voted in the election.

 

We went over this whole voter fraud thing a few weeks ago.  There were handfuls of people in many states (Pennsylvania was the most common) that were either improperly registered or voted twice.  They are still a drop in the bucket.  This 3 million number is insane and not a good look for the guy who won and is supposed to lead the country in a couple months.

[Pidesco]

Trump is quoting Infowars in that tweet. Infowars.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Ah Bruce..it's about reputation and ego. Hillary will do anything to undermine her enemies, She is a sociopath who demands to get her turn. This is all about dismantling Trump's cred. That's all this is. The actual vote count is not her goal. Let me be clear: her behavior now is PRECISELY why she was not elected.

If they can delay the vote certification by demanding hand recounts past the date of the electoral college voting, it would cause all kinds of mayhem.

 

 

Who cares, they lost.  I do think it is dumb that they are bothering with a recount in Wisconsin.  But there is no evidence that a ridiculous amount of illegal immigrants voted in the election.

 

We went over this whole voter fraud thing a few weeks ago.  There were handfuls of people in many states (Pennsylvania was the most common) that were either improperly registered or voted twice.  They are still a drop in the bucket.  This 3 million number is insane and not a good look for the guy who won and is supposed to lead the country in a couple months.

No one ever checks though. And leftists are on record encouraging illegal voting. Also it's not just illegal immigrants who can vote illegally, it's legal non-citizens and felons as well.

[Hurlshort]

 

No one ever checks though. And leftists are on record encouraging illegal voting. Also it's not just illegal immigrants who can vote illegally, it's legal non-citizens and felons as well.

 

 

Except that they do check and you can find plenty of investigations into voter fraud over the last 20 years.  The allegations typically don't pan out.  It makes for great headlines, both sides can yell and claim they were wronged.  It makes all the losers feel better and the winners feel more smug.  

 

http://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/The%20Truth%20About%20Voter%20Fraud.pdf

Edited November 28, 2016 by Hurlshot

[Wrath of Dagon]

He presents no evidence. Top Democrat operative Creamer was caught on tape talking about massive voter fraud. That guy visited the White House some 350 times.

[HoonDing]

We will be hearing a lot about "nasty women" during Trump's twitter tenure.

Edited November 28, 2016 by HoonDing

[imaenoon]

I still see people saying that Stein is being used as a pawn. I've also seen conflicting reports about whether or not the Clinton campaign was trying to dredge this up. If Clinton were somehow behind this, I would definitely think it was a mistake. I don't know about the back room machinations, but I think I have a pretty good idea about how stuff like this plays out with the public, and I don't think this makes Clinton look good. Other than die-hard lifers, the Clinton campaign achieves something if and only if they pull off a literal miracle and overturn the elections in three states. It's not even a recount. They're going to have to prove fraud and have thousands upon thousands of votes tossed out to win, and that's just not going to happen

 

Assuming Clinton doesn't win, if there's evidence she's behind this at all, it only serves to reinforce what people already think about her, and that ain't good. Generally, you can trust the polls within a certain margin, but I've been saying since before the general election that this time was different. Trump is viewed more favorably by most Americans than Clinton. Listen here, I'm not trying to goad you guys. I'm telling you something you need to understand. Trump's unfavorable numbers were approximate to Clinton's in the polls, but the real number was a little bit off. In the polls, a little more unfavorable to Trump generally, in reality a little more unfavorable to Clinton. Not by a huge margin, but a little off. After the dreadful tape, it got worse, but the public is increasingly inured to 'ism' claims. Right now, it looks like Stein may well have come up with this ploy on her own, but if it's clear Clinton did, she's nailing home her primary unfavorable, which is distrust. Argue away, but I stand by my view on that and I've been pretty spot on about where the polls lie in regards to the actual numbers this entire cycle. I did, however, think Clinton would get her numbers high enough over Trump to win, and she almost did. She's truly a horrid candidate, thank goodness. So, if she doesn't win, she's about as close to a political done deal as anything I've seen. She can't recover from another scandal like this if she's involved, and that will come out. She probably couldn't anyway, but this would just seal the deal. Putatively, her team (and her lawyers) have been scouring the elections looking for a way to do this. As of now, I haven't seen substantiated evidence and, even for Clinton, I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt until sufficient evidence makes it clear. Not court of law clear, just enough to make a rational conclusion clear.

 

Stein, however... if she's a pawn, she's the pawn who takes the queen. Clinton gets absolutely nothing unless she wins. Even if she wins, and I'm sure she'd like to, she's going to get a country where about everyone hates everyone else and the recount will only make that worse, and worse than worse if the public thinks about 100k votes can be tossed out after an election. Stein? No one would care about Stein if it weren't for this. She's already said the excess will go to Green party training. She's already surpassed her original goal for raising money. Where's the downside for her? She'd be a footnote if not for this recount. I don't care whether the Clinton campaign somehow colluded with her or not, she's the one playing them. At best, the Clinton campaign would be a willing accomplice.

 

As for people who see an avenue of attack against Trump via his holdings and conflicts of interest, this recount buries that attack. The irony that a recount muddying the waters so much that something that is far more of a substantive issue is mind boggling. I don't think even the conflict attack makes much difference anyway. The public won't care about the conflicts and there's nothing in the law that requires Trump to divest. However, there could be a way to prevent Trump and his family from actually administering his holdings while he is in office, and this recount and the 'throw accusations like spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks' approach is going to inoculate Trump against legitimate lines of attack. Don't die on every hill, people. Die on the hill where your death might actually bring a victory.

[Elerond]

 

At least we can say that upcoming president of USA is quite different compared to current president when it comes to tweeting things

[Meshugger]

Maybe Bannon knows something that we don't.

[Azdeus]

 

So much for "draining the swamp".

[Hurlshort]

 

USA public education is extremely bad.

USA private education is at the top.

So privatizing public education is a great idea and voucher program could be the answer for people who cannot afford education.

 

 

Yeah, no.  That is dumb.  It is the equivalent of moving out of your house because it is dirty.  You know, instead of doing the logical thing.

 

Do yourself a favor and look at how charter schools are a failed experiment. 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Hurlshot

[imaenoon]

I don't think there is some fundamental flaw in vouchers. The idea of vouchers didn't arise out of a vacuum. There are major systemic problems with public education. However, I think the best way to combat vouchers is to fix the problems and the push for vouchers will diminish. The video is horribly slanted, as one would expect from our screaming Turkish friends, but most of the facts seem to be right. The arguments don't reach out past the base, but... *shrug.* DeVos is a believer in it for her beliefs, not tax evasion.

 

Since she's a cabinet appointee, write, call, telegraph, and smoke signal your senator. Don't think that's wasted. Enough people call the senator and (strongly but not angrily or violently) state their view on the issue, the more the senator will take notice. Conversely, if hardly anyone contacts him, you're pretty much stuck with ideology, which makes it harder since Reid decided to buck a couple hundred years of Senate rules. I've been telling my Democrat friends why that was a mistake since before Reid actually went ahead with it. When the Republicans only need a majority for cloture on cabinet and Supreme Court nominations, you can thank Reid.

[Hurlshort]

 

 

USA public education is extremely bad.

USA private education is at the top.

So privatizing public education is a great idea and voucher program could be the answer for people who cannot afford education.

Yeah, no. That is dumb. It is the equivalent of moving out of your house because it is dirty. You know, instead of doing the logical thing.

 

Do yourself a favor and look at how charter schools are a failed experiment.

I disagree with the analogy. Putting money in failed public schools is like putting a bucket under the leaking pipe and wiping the floor instead of exchanging the pipe.

 

As for research:

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/knowledge-bank/2015/03/19/new-study-shows-charter-schools-making-a-difference-in-cities

 

I don't see a failure from this report and it's fresh - 2015. Also charter schools in nearly all countries are better than public ones. I never saw any studies that showed charter or private schools doing worse than public ones. If you have such I would check them out.

 

In my opinion instead of giving the taxpayers money to schools it would be far better to give them to students in a form of voucher or bon. This will allow for the parents to choose the best school for their kid and competition between schools to recruit and keep the students will only benefit the quality of education.

 

 

I'll get to the evidence a little later, but as wonderful as it sounds to have parents choosing the best schools and having competition for recruitment, in reality is just means you are going to create a much greater divide between the have's and have-nots.  The biggest problem in public education is not the teachers, the facilities, or even the bureaucrats running the districts.  The biggest problem is the parent communities themselves.  When you have a strong parent community that supports the school and the students, you will have success.  When you have a school in the inner city dealing with gangs, drug abuse, teenage pregnancy, etc., it is because you have that in the home.  Vouchers aren't going to solve any of these problems, and instead will take away the scant resources that these schools have to try and make a difference in these troubled areas.

[imaenoon]

The biggest problem in public education is not the teachers, the facilities, or even the bureaucrats running the districts.  The biggest problem is the parent communities themselves.  When you have a strong parent community that supports the school and the students, you will have success.  When you have a school in the inner city dealing with gangs, drug abuse, teenage pregnancy, etc., it is because you have that in the home.  Vouchers aren't going to solve any of these problems, and instead will take away the scant resources that these schools have to try and make a difference in these troubled areas.

Okay, assuming these are the problems, what is the solution? ...And is the first step fighting the DeVos nomination? ...Or can you come up with *gasp* a compromise?

 

I would submit the weakest point is the billionaire non-sense. You can get traction attacking her dearth of experience in public education as anything other than an advocate, but the best argument is to come up with a solution that has enough broad appeal to pass. ...And, if we're really talking about DeVos, what's the strategy for keeping her out of the cabinet, or is it all over except the grousing? Wife's a teacher of some three decades, so I get hell over this specific issue all the time, so I understand all about compromises.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 Vouchers aren't going to solve any of these problems, and instead will take away the scant resources that these schools have to try and make a difference in these troubled areas.

Except that public schools don't make a difference in those areas, they just warehouse kids until they're ready for prison.

[Hurlshort]

 

 Vouchers aren't going to solve any of these problems, and instead will take away the scant resources that these schools have to try and make a difference in these troubled areas.

Except that public schools don't make a difference in those areas, they just warehouse kids until they're ready for prison.

 

 

Did you feel good about this when you typed it?  Because it is terrible.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I don't feel good, but it's the truth, it can't be denied.

[Hurlshort]

 

The biggest problem in public education is not the teachers, the facilities, or even the bureaucrats running the districts.  The biggest problem is the parent communities themselves.  When you have a strong parent community that supports the school and the students, you will have success.  When you have a school in the inner city dealing with gangs, drug abuse, teenage pregnancy, etc., it is because you have that in the home.  Vouchers aren't going to solve any of these problems, and instead will take away the scant resources that these schools have to try and make a difference in these troubled areas.

Okay, assuming these are the problems, what is the solution? ...And is the first step fighting the DeVos nomination? ...Or can you come up with *gasp* a compromise?

 

I would submit the weakest point is the billionaire non-sense. You can get traction attacking her dearth of experience in public education as anything other than an advocate, but the best argument is to come up with a solution that has enough broad appeal to pass. ...And, if we're really talking about DeVos, what's the strategy for keeping her out of the cabinet, or is it all over except the grousing? Wife's a teacher of some three decades, so I get hell over this specific issue all the time, so I understand all about compromises.

 

 

I'm not all that worried about DeVos.  As a parent, student, or teacher, the list of authorities that you should concern yourself with go School > District > County > State > Federal.  A great school, of which there are many, will be great no matter what weird stuff gets done in Washington.  Is it a good sign that Trump put a billionaire with no experience in an actual classroom in charge of education?  Of course not.

 

Here are some articles on charter schools, as promised.  I'll tear apart private schools a little later.  As a teaser, let me tell you that on average teachers at charter schools make less and have less education.  

 

http://billmoyers.com/story/failing-test-charter-schools-winners-losers/

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/07/06/growing-evidence-charter-schools-are-failing

http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/04/16/california-virtual-academies-is-online-charter-school-network-cashing-in-on-failure/

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/29/us/for-detroits-children-more-school-choice-but-not-better-schools.html?_r=0

http://inthesetimes.com/article/18352/10-years-after-katrina-new-orleans-all-charter-district-has-proven-a-failur

 

The list is fairly endless, really.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Hurlshot

[imaenoon]

School > District > County > State > Federal.

QFT It's why inner city schools are so bad. I would suggest, however, we should add one more thing:

 

Family > School > District > County > State > Federal.

[Gfted1]

Well, the statement was designed to provoke a response-by-omission, but obviously it is devoid of facts. The vast majority of US citizens attend public schools yet somehow were not all in jail. Weird huh? Any truth in WoD's statement would be focused on the inner-city schools.