What defines you as a citizen...what really matters?

[Chilloutman]

[Gromnir]

That's not how it's supposed to work though.

 

"There is no right or wrong answer, this is your personal views on what matters to your view of a citizen."

 

make us feel a bit dirty to quote bruce. shame on us, and shame on you.

 

*shrug*

 

we agree with bruce that the opinions in this thread ain't wrong.  sure, if somebody gets a fact wrong 'bout how polygamy is advocated in the US Constitution and it is required that every male must have at least three wives, we would point out error, but am not honest seeing benefit in a thread such as this to critique feelings 'bout citizenship... though such is only our opinion. and heck, we didn't even answer the original question, so what do we know?  just seems like off-the-rails blather is counter-productive to encouraging folks to post their own opinions.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

That's not how it's supposed to work though.

Consider what I wrote in post 23 and look at the Cliven Bundy fiasco in Nevada. People from all around the country showed up to defend him and his family and property. They got no benefit from that cattle or his money and asked him for nothing. And it wasn't as if his cause was just or the Government was in the wrong. It wasn't, and they weren't. It because the government, rather that doing things peacefully and respectfully of it's people came in and did what the US Government seems to love to do best these days; point guns at Americans. Harry Reid called them all terrorists and traitors. They should wear that little man's words with pride because IMO they were good citizens. I'm sure Harry Reid would say Col. Barett and his militiamen who faced the British at Concord were also traitors. The lined up to defend their people and homes from their government too.   .

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

One thing that I've always found remarkable was the willingness of the Confederate Soldier to fight. Most of the officers were in the US Army before the war and were professional soldiers who left to serve their native States. But the majority of the infantry (at first) was made up of volunteers. These men were farmers and tradesmen. They were not wealthy and did not own slaves. Slavery did not benefit them in any way. So what motivated them? I read the answer in a book, a true story about a Confederate soldier  called Jack Hinson's One Man War. In the book he recounts a conversation between a Union Captain and a Confederate soldier who had been captured at Knoxville. The Captain asked the soldier why he was fighting against his own countrymen. The soldier answered simply "Because you are here". That willingness to defend what is not exclusively yours, the homes, lives, and liberties of your community is what makes a "good" citizen IMO.

 

 

So... I'm supposed to find it admirable that people would be willing to fight and die for one of the most disgusting practices of human history even though they had no personal interest in doing so? Because I'm sensing some mixed signals here.

[pmp10]

 

One thing that I've always found remarkable was the willingness of the Confederate Soldier to fight. Most of the officers were in the US Army before the war and were professional soldiers who left to serve their native States. But the majority of the infantry (at first) was made up of volunteers. These men were farmers and tradesmen. They were not wealthy and did not own slaves. Slavery did not benefit them in any way. So what motivated them? I read the answer in a book, a true story about a Confederate soldier  called Jack Hinson's One Man War. In the book he recounts a conversation between a Union Captain and a Confederate soldier who had been captured at Knoxville. The Captain asked the soldier why he was fighting against his own countrymen. The soldier answered simply "Because you are here". That willingness to defend what is not exclusively yours, the homes, lives, and liberties of your community is what makes a "good" citizen IMO.

 

So... I'm supposed to find it admirable that people would be willing to fight and die for one of the most disgusting practices of human history even though they had no personal interest in doing so? Because I'm sensing some mixed signals here.

 

Average southerner would be concerned with protecting their social order rather than slavery itself.

And while initially they went willingly eventually conscription was necessary.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

One thing that I've always found remarkable was the willingness of the Confederate Soldier to fight. Most of the officers were in the US Army before the war and were professional soldiers who left to serve their native States. But the majority of the infantry (at first) was made up of volunteers. These men were farmers and tradesmen. They were not wealthy and did not own slaves. Slavery did not benefit them in any way. So what motivated them? I read the answer in a book, a true story about a Confederate soldier  called Jack Hinson's One Man War. In the book he recounts a conversation between a Union Captain and a Confederate soldier who had been captured at Knoxville. The Captain asked the soldier why he was fighting against his own countrymen. The soldier answered simply "Because you are here". That willingness to defend what is not exclusively yours, the homes, lives, and liberties of your community is what makes a "good" citizen IMO.

 So... I'm supposed to find it admirable that people would be willing to fight and die for one of the most disgusting practices of human history even though they had no personal interest in doing so? Because I'm sensing some mixed signals here.

Average southerner would be concerned with protecting their social order rather than slavery itself.And while initially they went willingly eventually conscription was necessary.

It's still a social order that doesn't benefit them. A good part of my family were confederates (those that came pre-famine) and they fought for the rights of the upper class to **** on them. Wrap it up in the gaudy costumes of "honor" and "freedom" if you will, but it's still fighting against your own interests.

[Meshugger]

Stupid peasants, never doing what i think is good for them.

[Guard Dog]

All three of you completely missed the point. They were not fighting for slavery, or nebulous concepts like the "social order". They were fighting for their homes, their families and neighbors. They were fighting to save each other. Except for June & July of 1863 every battle fought in the Civil War was fought in the south. 90% of the civilian casualties were southerners. It is tragic that they were ultimately fighting to preserve an atrocity but that is not how they saw it and it's really not a sin that can be laid at their feet so much as on the CSA government.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

All three of you completely missed the point. They were not fighting for slavery, or nebulous concepts like the "social order". They were fighting for their homes, their families and neighbors. They were fighting to save each other. 

 

No, you seem to be missing the point I was making: namely that in extolling the virtues of fighting for one's community, you chose an example some would consider to be a good reason to actively cheer for the increased atomization of communities Mesh seems to be so worried about.

[pmp10]

 

 

 

One thing that I've always found remarkable was the willingness of the Confederate Soldier to fight. Most of the officers were in the US Army before the war and were professional soldiers who left to serve their native States. But the majority of the infantry (at first) was made up of volunteers. These men were farmers and tradesmen. They were not wealthy and did not own slaves. Slavery did not benefit them in any way. So what motivated them? I read the answer in a book, a true story about a Confederate soldier  called Jack Hinson's One Man War. In the book he recounts a conversation between a Union Captain and a Confederate soldier who had been captured at Knoxville. The Captain asked the soldier why he was fighting against his own countrymen. The soldier answered simply "Because you are here". That willingness to defend what is not exclusively yours, the homes, lives, and liberties of your community is what makes a "good" citizen IMO.

 So... I'm supposed to find it admirable that people would be willing to fight and die for one of the most disgusting practices of human history even though they had no personal interest in doing so? Because I'm sensing some mixed signals here.

 

Average southerner would be concerned with protecting their social order rather than slavery itself.And while initially they went willingly eventually conscription was necessary.

 

It's still a social order that doesn't benefit them. A good part of my family were confederates (those that came pre-famine) and they fought for the rights of the upper class to **** on them. Wrap it up in the gaudy costumes of "honor" and "freedom" if you will, but it's still fighting against your own interests.

 

But it did benefit them.

Even as poor native whites they were placed higher then blacks/migrants/catholics/hispanics in the social ladder.

Once Northerners are allowed to reorder society there is no telling were they may end up.

It could well be the very bottom.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Being above slaves, who were property, isn't exactly encouraging when your lot in life is living in a shack barely scraping by while some **** lives a life of decadence because he owns land and the state works for him. I guess I don't have the submissive nature to view dying for that as admirable.

[HoonDing]

"I really liked Gromnir's answer. Americans, perhaps more than other nationalities, do have a sense of self value. We live in a country where the "rugged individualist" is still the ideal. Dependency, on government, on family, on anything is largely disdained for good or ill. We revere and respect self made people and aspire independence in both our social and private lives.

 

But while that might be an American trait it really misses what Bruce was asking; what does it mean to be a citizen? I think it means an acknowledgement of community. The people who live around you share a bond with you. A shared history, culture, language, as well as geographical proximity. Being a good citizen means acknowledging that bond. Being a good American citizen means not just acknowledging that bond but also the self value (meaning individual liberty) of those people. Respecting their rights, property, privacy, etc. And this includes a willingness to defend all of this as well. If I saw someone breaking into my neighbor's home I would defend his home from that person as vigorously as I would my own and expect that they would do the same.

 

I've mentioned before the US Civil War is one of my favorite subjects for study. One thing that I've always found remarkable was the willingness of the Confederate Soldier to fight. Most of the officers were in the US Army before the war and were professional soldiers who left to serve their native States. But the majority of the infantry (at first) was made up of volunteers. These men were farmers and tradesmen. They were not wealthy and did not own slaves. Slavery did not benefit them in any way. So what motivated them? I read the answer in a book, a true story about a Confederate soldier  called Jack Hinson's One Man War. In the book he recounts a conversation between a Union Captain and a Confederate soldier who had been captured at Knoxville. The Captain asked the soldier why he was fighting against his own countrymen. The soldier answered simply "Because you are here". That willingness to defend what is not exclusively yours, the homes, lives, and liberties of your community is what makes a "good" citizen IMO.

 

This shared bond is not iron. Far from it. It is the most tenuous of things and exists only so long as the self value and liberty of those who share it are respected by all who share it. The moment that is violated then there is no community. This sense of community should not be taken as an obligation to support one another. Only to defend one another. In the American example we expect you pull your own weight, support yourself. Not ask or demand we give you what we have. Yes there is some sharing to be expected but what is yours is yours and what is mine is mine. As Ayn Rand once wrote "I will die for you but I will not live for you"

 

Just my $.02"

 

this is why we can't have nice things

Edited August 16, 2016 by HoonDing

[pmp10]

Being above slaves, who were property, isn't exactly encouraging when your lot in life is living in a shack barely scraping by while some **** lives a life of decadence because he owns land and the state works for him. I guess I don't have the submissive nature to view dying for that as admirable.

How do you see the Northern soldiers then?

Your average yankee had a pretty similar lot in life and few of them started fighting to overturn slavery.

[Meshugger]

 

 

That's why Alumni is right by trying to invoke the common expression of his fellow citizens.

 

 

...The what now?

 

 

I thought that you used a sentiment typical to the magyar culture and spirit, thus highlighting the social bond of what a citizenship constitutes in Hungary: being hungarian.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Meshugger

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

That's why Alumni is right by trying to invoke the common expression of his fellow citizens.

 

...The what now?

 

 

I thought that you used a sentiment typical to the magyar culture and spirit, thus highlighting the social bond of what a citizenship constitutes in Hungary: being hungarian.

 

 

Nah, it was a quote from one of our greatest writers. I don't have a statistically significant sample of Hungarians whose opinion I know about what the elusive "magyar spirit" is like; I can only speak for myself and what being Hungarian means to me.

Edited August 16, 2016 by aluminiumtrioxid

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Being above slaves, who were property, isn't exactly encouraging when your lot in life is living in a shack barely scraping by while some **** lives a life of decadence because he owns land and the state works for him. I guess I don't have the submissive nature to view dying for that as admirable.

How do you see the Northern soldiers then?Your average yankee had a pretty similar lot in life and few of them started fighting to overturn slavery.

The same as I see the confederates.

[Chippy]

I believe a person should be allowed to leave a legacy of wealth for their family after they're gone.

 

To be specific - I'm only now starting to get to the point my great grandfather was at over a hundred years ago (before my family lost everything they had twice over two generations), and I'll be lucky to know half as much as him, and to achieve half as much as he did if I live to 80.