Dual wielding. Do you need high dexterity?

[Kingsman]

If you dual wield, say a rogue with 2 weapons or a fighter. Is it important to have high dexterity or does using 2 weapons somewhat negate the benefits from having high dex?

[Boeroer]

It doesn't negate it, it only doesn't do as much for you as if you'd have a slow weapon or even one with reloading animation.

 

At first the your recovery gets calculated and after that the DEX bonus gets applied. So let's assume you have 100 frames of recovery and 20 DEX (30% speed bonus), then your 100 would be reduced by 30% which would mean 70 frames (don't know if it's calculated like that, most certainly not, but let's just pretend it's like this to make my point clear). You'd win 30 frames because of your DEX.

 

Now, with dual wielding your weapon recovery gets halved. Two Weapon Style lowers this even more. Most other speed mods get multiplied with that. You might end up with - let's say 20 frames of recovery (or even zero if you can stack a lot of buffs). Now look at your bonus you get from DEX: 30% of 20 is 6 frames which will give you 14 frames for 20 DEX. You only gain 6 frames for an investment of 10 points of DEX. In the first case you gained 30 frames. The ratio of DEX to frame gain is 10/30 in the first case and 10/6 in the second.

 

If you have reached 0 recovery and put your DEX to 3 you won't see a lot of difference while attacking. You will be a bit slower because DEX not only lowers your recovery, but also speeds up the attack animation itself (and reloading animation - those are not affected by "attack speed" buffs). So it's not completely useless even if you have 0 recovery. However - it does less for you than with slower "base" recovery.

 

That's why DEX is not super benifical for your attack speed when you already have a very fast recovery phase.

 

BUT - some of those speedups like Dual Wielding, Two Handed Style and Durgan Steel and so on only affect weapon attacks. Every other action like drinking potions, casting and stuff will be superslow in animation and recovery if you have 3 DEX. YOu will get interreupted a lot while drinking or casting if you stand in a mob and DEX and RES are low. Your superslow animation will start all over again when you get interrupted, it's a chore. I play a solo barb atm with 3 RES and 2 DEX and 0 recovery - but when it comes to drinking and casting I have to be supercareful not to get interrupt-locked. But I like the challenge.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

Is it important to have high dexterity or does using 2 weapons somewhat negate the benefits from having high dex?

Take a look at this post.

 

Or this tldr. version of it, adapted for dual-wielding:

 

Imagine several dual-wielding sabres characters:

Andy has 10 DEX and no speed buffs: 5d + 30 + 25 = 60 frames

Bob has 20 DEX and no speed buffs: 5d + 23 + 19.3 = 47.3

Charles has 3 DEX and no speed buffs: 5d + 38 + 31.6 = 74.6

 

David has 10 DEX and zero recovery: 5d + 30 = 35

Edwin has 20 DEX and zero recovery: 5d + 23 = 28

Fred has 3 DEX and zero recovery: 5d + 38 = 43

As you can see Fred has a faster attack rate than both Andy and even Bob.

But he is still x1.53 slower than Edwin. And copy-pasting old conclusions:

 

So to resume:

- Is DEX useless? A: No.

- Can a 3 DEX character be a somewhat decent fighter? A: suddenly Yes. (but he needs zero recovery)

- DEX is especially useful on reloading and hard-hitting ranged weapons.

- Maxing DEX to the roof is of less priority on fast melee weapons, provided there are no high damage modifiers. I.e. non-rogues might want a more balances stat-spread when using daggers, stilettos, clubs, rapiers and alike.

I find that for majority of dedicated dps builds built around dual-wielding, 15-16 DEX is more than enough, as often other stats start to get a higher priority.

Edited July 12, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Yeah. So it's totally cool to give a melee dps guy who is normally not exposed to attacks 0 recovery AND high DEX.

It's just so that most melee frontliners can use a bit of CON and RES and therefore need to lower some other stats - and DEX is the least painful for a dual wielder with fancy speed buffs (or so it seems).

Edited July 12, 2016 by Boeroer

[rheingold]

mmmm for most classes it's pretty easy to get decent dex - around 14 and above. I just really struggle with barbarians stat spreads. They are like the good old d&d paladins in that they are mad dependent. Sadly dex is normally left at around 10 for them with me - I don't really min/max so I wouldn't drop it further. To be honest from a practical point of view using a monk and barb both with 10 dex and dual wielding they seem to do just fine dps wise. And that's without 0 recovery as I haven't got durgan steel yet.

Not sure if you go one handed or two handed.

[Loren Tyr]

As MaxQuest's figures show though, the gain in attack speed is pretty much independent of other attack speed modifiers: all else being equal a 20 DEX character will attack about 25% more often than a 10DEX character. The fixed offset 5s (ish) delay obviously spoils the math a little bit especially at the lower end of the attack duration spectrum, but even then the differences are fairly marginal (eg. for a dagger it drops to about 22.5% at zero recovery I think; fast weapons are 20 frames (+ delay) attack duration, right?). 

[Loren Tyr]

By the way, is interrupt duration affected by the victim's DEX as well? Or is that just a flat increase in recovery time?

[Boeroer]

As far a I know, interrupts don't get influenced by DEX (of attacker or defender) at all. They will just add the interrupt value (0.35, 0.5, 0.75 or 1 sec) onto your recovery time. Crits and grazes work as usual if I do remember correctly.

[MaxQuest]

The fixed offset 5s (ish) delay obviously spoils the math a little bit especially at the lower end of the attack duration spectrum, but even then the differences are fairly marginal (eg. for a dagger it drops to about 22.5% at zero recovery I think; fast weapons are 20 frames (+ delay) attack duration, right?).

You are right. At 10 dex, fast weapons have 5 (delay) + 20 (attack) + 33.3 (recovery) (16.6 if dw).

At zero recovery the coefficient would be (5 + 20) / (5 + 20/1.3) = ~1.226

 

By the way, is interrupt duration affected by the victim's DEX as well? Or is that just a flat increase in recovery time?

Hmm, I am not completely sure.

When you interrupt someone during their recovery, a flat value (0.35, 0.5, 0.75 and so on) (modified by hit quality, like Boeroer has mentioned ) is added to their recovery.

 

The unclear thing is if you interrupt someone during their attacking phase (because recovery duration is calculated only after attack is completed).

Edited July 12, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Kingsman]

I wonder if say for example you where a rogue dual wielding daggers if you would be better of leaving dex at 10 and raising might to 20. This would help with punching through damage reduction.

 

But with sabres you might be better of leaving might at 10 and pumping dex to 20 because sabres are slower then daggers? Or would you be better off pumping might for sabres?

 

Confusing

[Dr <3]

Is not confusing, with rogue best choice is usually don't touch neither str or agi and go for other stats :D

 

Per, int gives better benefits

[Kingsman]

^^^^

 

Intelligence left at 10 on a rogue works ok. I've found with rogues they punch out some serious damage with deathblows, sneak attacks ect......so you would want to land these hits as quickly as possible hence why I pump dex. Yes I usually pump perception aswell. My typical rogue build will have 20 dex 20 perception and everything else left at 10.

 

I am thinking that if I rolled a rogue and duelled daggers (drawn in spring) I would be better of pumping might and perception not dexterity.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Kingsman

[MaxQuest]

I wonder if say for example you where a rogue dual wielding daggers if you would be better of leaving dex at 10 and raising might to 20. This would help with punching through damage reduction.

 

But with sabres you might be better of leaving might at 10 and pumping dex to 20 because sabres are slower then daggers? Or would you be better off pumping might for sabres?

When dual-wielding daggers, I would max might. Because both Drawn-in-Spring's dot and Unlabored Blade proc greatly benefit from it. Dex would have lower priority, but if possible, I would up it to at least 13-15. In case of UB, it would be great is someone would assist you with deathblows conditions (in aoe), as firebug proc does benefit from it.

 

When dual-wielding sabres... I would take dex over might, because be it Purgatory, or be it Bittercut, your damage coefficient is already high, and might of 12 could be enough.

Edited July 12, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Kaylon]

When a target has 0DR, dex is better than might because you have other dmg bonuses and might has less impact. But when you have less than 100% dmg bonuses and your target has 10-15DR it's like if it removes 100-150% from your dmg bonuses and then might has suddenly greater impact than dex on your dps.

[Pax_Empyrean]

The bigger your damage bonuses, the more Dex helps you. Rogues benefit more from Dex because they've got sneak attack damage bonuses like crazy. Raising 200% damage to 230% damage isn't that useful. Ciphers benefit from Dex because they're looking at +40% damage to start with once they take Biting Whip, and a lot of their useful CC stuff doesn't do damage at all. I wouldn't dump Might, but raising your damage bonus from 140% to 170% probably isn't as useful as a nearly 30% increase in attack speed (and the Dex helps you cast your crowd control faster, while Might doesn't do anything to help with that). Both are definitely secondary stats to Intellect.

Might helps more when your damage is relatively low compared to your target's DR.

[Boeroer]

Also keep in mind that MIG (and INT of course) can help a lot when it comes to (self)healing like with Shod-in-Faith boots, Veteran's and Constant Recovery, Ancient Memory and so on - and also casting damaging scrolls. If you have to use a consumable scroll which will not "regenerate" after resting it's better to get the most out of it. DEX doesn't help at all with those two things. That's why DEX has a lower priority than MIG for me most of the time.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Boeroer

[Kingsman]

Do you reckon a warbow ranger would be better of with max might or dex?

[Pax_Empyrean]

Do you reckon a warbow ranger would be better of with max might or dex?

Depends on what talents you take and what weapon you use. Vicious Aim works better with Dex. Swift Aim works better with Might. Borresaine works better with Dex (more attacks = more stuns). The Rain of Godagh Field or Cloudpiercer are better with Might.

[Boeroer]

Hm... I can't say what's better (dps wise) when you do the math. Kaylon for example will surely know where the break even point with DR is.

But for me it feels better if such a ranger has high DEX. Warbows are not very fast - and while you can have one that is speed enchanted it's not the best one overall (it is for dps, but dps is not that important compared to CC/disables and such). There are others war bows which have nice on-crit effects (Borresaine stuns, Sabra Marie cnfuses) so you might want to shoot as fast as possible in order to deliver as much CC as possible. This is also true for Stunning Shots. Stunlocking is very powerful and helps your (and your pet's) dps more than some points in MIG.

 

I would say: if I'd have a chanter with Sure Handed Ila and my items were all durganized and I had the Gauntlets of Swift Action I might favour MIG over DEX. I would have to playtest that (actually never played ranger with war bows - Stormcaller and Persistence are such awesome bows that I never use war bows with rangers - they all go to my ciphers ).
But generally I would favour DEX over MIG with a ranger who uses bows and try to stack DR bypass somehow instead. 

[Kaylon]

Do you reckon a warbow ranger would be better of with max might or dex?

He's better with both maxed because as a ranger you can dump con/res.

But if you really want to pick you should keep in mind the ranger has very few ways to increase his damage outside his weapon. You can squeeze at best:

- 20%dmg from stalker's torc

- 10%dmg from archer's gloves (but the gauntlets of quickness are better)

- 15%dmg from apprentice's sneak attack

- 10%dmg from items with flanking bonus

- 10-30%dmg from variuous buffs

Without buffs you barely reach 100% bonus dmg (under perfect circumstances - ie attacking a flanked target at the same time as your pet) with a superb weapon. 100% dmg bonus means 16.5 more dmg on average - ie against anything with at least 17DR might is better than dex for dps until your dmg bonus will compensate the enemies DR.

 

The conclusion is dex is good vs trash mobs, while might is always better vs targets with high DR.

[Kingsman]

^^^^^^*

 

That's a pretty good point that rangers don't have many options for punching through damage reduction. Some of the ways you suggested a ranger can increase damage are not very reliable ones either like flanking bonus, pet, sneak attack.

 

A lot of people have said that after the introduction of twin arrows rangers will out dps rogues. I seriously doubt that they would come anywhere near rogue dps output.

 

Ranger do have a few options for reducing DR though eg 6 DR on stormcaller and that talent that reduces another 5 DR, possibly other ways aswell

Edited July 13, 2016 by Kingsman

[Boeroer]

If they say a ranger can out dps a rogue they mean the combined damage of ranger + animal companion. And as long as both are alive and hitting that might be true. Don't forget that rangers can shoot not only two arrows per shot (which is like Deathblows against 0 DR) all the time while the pet can punch through almost any DR, but you will also always stun with every shot - with Driving Flight and Twinned Arrows you will stun up to three enemies per shot. Your pet will crit then and do Sneak Attacks and you will crit a lot, too. That forms a good synergy with Apprentice's Sneak Attack for persistent 15% damage increase. Also, with Twinned Arrows I think it's smart in some cases to use Penetrating Shot. It will give you the equivalent of +10 damage per shot.

 

As I said, I don't think DEX is better for dps on a bow ranger, but power does not necessarily equal high dps. With a bow ranger is it more important (in my opinion) to shoot as fast as possible in order to stunlock enemies and/or to proc as many Returning Storms, confusions and whatnot as possible. This is way more important than a few % dmg from MIG in order to punch through DR.

 

But as Kaylon said: normally a bow ranger dumps CON and RES and has plenty of points for both MIG and DEX (and PER). And if you already are near 0 recovery (higer levles) I would go for MIG since DEX doesn't do as much for you as in the beginning where you hadn't that much speed buffs. 

[Kaylon]

Well, the rogue has to face the same problems as the ranger when using bows - sneak attack and deathblow have similar requirements and aren't very reliable - besides that bonuses all you can have is 10% from the flanking bonus and 10% ranged dmg from items.

 

If we compare a ranger and a rogue, both with a legendary durganized bow (both with the gauntlets of quickness) we have:

- rogue: 100%(base)+55%(legendary)+45%(might)+50%(sneak)+100%(deathblows)+10%(flank)+10%(ranged)+16%(hit to criticals)=386%

- ranger: (100%(base)+55%(legendary)+45%(might)+15%(sneak)+10%(flank)+20%(link)+8%(hit to criticals))x2=508%

 

That means the ranger will out dps the rogue vs any target with less than 10DR, while the rogue will start doing more dps vs targets with higher DR. However the ranger has stunning shots which means he will start doing criticals like crazy vs stunned targets, he has driving flight which means even more potential dmg, he has higher accuracy (link) which means more criticals - in practice a rogue with a bow won't out dps the ranger even without counting the pet save vs very high def/DR enemies.

 

Of course the melee rogue can have more dps because he can reach 0% recovery and has access to more dmg bonuses - but if he wants more dps he has to sacrifice survability - he can die more often, he can be interrupted more often, he can't instantly change targets - it's another debate...

 

PS. I didn't count the wounds for the rogue, neither the dmg of the pet - but the pet adds clearly more dps.

[Boeroer]

A nice breakdown. 

[AnGremlin]

I know this is like years too late but

[...]

So let's assume you have 100 frames of recovery [...] You'd win 30 frames because of your DEX.

 

You might end up with - let's say 20 frames of recovery [...] You only gain 6 frames

[...]

You've missed something really really, incredibly important here.

The first one you're looking at how many frames you save over 100, the second you're looking at it over 20 frames. Which means 100 frames would be five attack cycles without Dex. And over 5 attack cycles, saving 6 every twenty will save you...... 30 frames.

DEX is always saving you the same percentage of time over any period of time, which means theoretically it makes absolutely no difference what weapon you use. The only exception to this in practice is if you get your recovery so low that it causes rounding error - if you have 10 frames at 30% you save 3, but at 9 does that STAY 3 or fall to 2? either way It's not actually 30% but at the same time that error sohuldn't be more than one frame of difference