[MECHANICS] The Big "Attack Speed" Conundrum

[JerekKruger]

It's probably a device to ensure that a class that is already OP does not get more out of hand!

 

Doubtful. I think the power of Chanters isn't that well know, and it was even less so in the past.

[Lampros]

 

It's probably a device to ensure that a class that is already OP does not get more out of hand!

 

Doubtful. I think the power of Chanters isn't that well know, and it was even less so in the past.

 

 

Hmmm, true. Devs rarely see OP potentials unless expert players point it out to them - repeatedly.

[Dr <3]

 

(random balance suggestions are also welcome)

I've got a few...:

- Allow cipher to cast Pain Block and Going Between on himself

- Allow cipher to cast Amplified Wave on charmed targets

- Mind Wave prone duration was stealhtly nerfed 5s => 3s. Imho it should be 4s.

- Mind Wave visual cone originates from caster. Should be from target.

- Mind Blades is quite weak in practice: early on there is a high chance to miss/graze which will stop it's propagation.

 

- Make Frenzy instant. It's quite annoying to have to wait for it's animation before using BB/HoF. Not to mention that AI tends to use Frenzy AFTER Barbaric Blow.

- Reduce lvl requirement for rogue's Sap from 11 -> 7 or 9.

- Buff Dirty Fighting: 10% -> 15%. This will increase the extra crit chance from 5% to 7.5%.

- Make Vielo Vidorio speed buff, affect Pallegina as well

 

- Ranger's Binding Roots: 5 per rest -> 2 per encounter

- Ranger's Thorny Roots: single instance of 15 slash + 15 pierce damage -> 5 slash + 10 pierce per 3s

 

- Swap damage types on Durance's Staff: crush + burn -> burn + crush

- Hold the Line talent: +1 engagement => +1 engagement and +1 to endurance-to-hp coefficient OR +200 health.

 

Based on your knowledge, is it going to stack with Armored Grace/DurganSteel/Pilferer's Grip? I think so but can't really spot the small difference in frames in-game.

Uhh. This -10% armor speed penalty from ZC will definitely stack with Armored Grace (ofc the finaly penalty still won't go below zero).

 

As for stacking with DurganizedArmor enchant / Pilferer's Grip it's hard to say. And it's better to test it.

For example:

- take a naked character with 3 DEX

- equip him in durganized hide armor

- give him two sabres/swords/maces/warhammers

- affect him with this modded Zealous Charge aura

- drink DAoM potion, and watch him attacking

 

If ZC stacks with DurganizedArmor, you will have:

- 5 frames delay -> 38 frames attack -> 0 frames recovery

 

And if they don't stack:

- 5 frames delay -> 38 frames attack -> 6.3 frames recovery (you will be able to notice a quick line running for 0.2 seconds; if not you can use fraps)

 

Should I also edit the Armored Grace talent description? It says Recovery Penalty only but Reload is also affected, right?

No, Armored Grace does not affect reloading duration in PoE1. It probably will in Deadfire though.

Plz, all of this, expecially the chiper part!

[Kaylon]

No need to test Pilferer's Grip - its effect is shown as suppressed if you wear a durgan enchanted armor.

[Boeroer]

Yes, gets suppressed. Same as the Colored Coat's "sly" enchantment.

Also, Hirbel's Protective Skin's crit-to-hit conversion gets suppressed by durgan steel as well. 

[AlexKidd]

What is the effect of AttackVariation?

 

Also, any idea where does the spiritshift cat gets its extra attack/recovery buff from (not the 1/day flurry ability, just the standard attacks)?

Speedfactor on the claw item is the same for all shapes.

[MaxQuest]

What is the effect of AttackVariation?

It's the visual animation of the attack.

 

Also, any idea where does the spiritshift cat gets its extra attack/recovery buff from (not the 1/day flurry ability, just the standard attacks)?

Speedfactor on the claw item is the same for all shapes.

I suppose it could be overwritten in some MonoBehaviour from other asset.

Take a look at global.unity3d and especially at ingameglobal.unity3d. Good luck finding the right MB though)

[Lampros]

So I have been doing a lot of reading on this topic the whole week - as well as fiddling around with the PoE Speed Calculator. And it appears that almost every speed-related enchants, spells, gear, and potions only reduce recovery time and not the time it takes to perform the actual action itself? Further, only Dexterity affects the latter? Am I correct? It's a bit counter-intuitive, if this is the case. In particular, I was surprised to find - if the PoE Speed Calculator is indeed correct - that even the weight of armor does not affect the time it takes to perform actions.

[Phenomenum]

Yes, correct: Dexterity is the only one stat in game which affect on time to perform actions (animation speed)

[Lampros]

Yes, correct: Dexterity is the only one stat in game which affect on time to perform actions (animation speed)

 

Thanks for the confirmation!

[daveyeisley]

Hello MaxQuest. I just want to say THANK YOU sooooo much for this amazing tool you made and all the effort you invested to extract this data and make sense of these mechanics. Without your tool, I was pretty lost.

 

I did want to ask if I am seeing something in the tool incorrectly. I can't seem to find any reference as to why, at 10 dex for a default, some Average speed weapons have a base recovery of 50 frames (ie. Sabres, Swords, War Hammers, ) and some have only 33.3 frames (ie. Maces, Spears)?

 

I see that spears have a 21 frame attack variation, which I think sort of brings them in line with the other average speed one-handers (not really clear if that is actually a 21 frame animation), but for example comparing Sabres and Maces, they both are average speed, and both have the same recovery and attack variation in your chart in the 1st post - but when I clear every other option and just choose a sabre or a mace, the base recovery changes in the tool.

 

I did read the thread (Skimmed some parts admittedly, but I did go through the whole thing and did not see any info to help me reconcile this). Can you tell me if I am missing something?

Edited February 9, 2018 by daveyeisley

[Kaylon]

Hello MaxQuest. I just want to say THANK YOU sooooo much for this amazing tool you made and all the effort you invested to extract this data and make sense of these mechanics. Without your tool, I was pretty lost.

 

I did want to ask if I am seeing something in the tool incorrectly. I can't seem to find any reference as to why, at 10 dex for a default, some Average speed weapons have a base recovery of 50 frames (ie. Sabres, Swords, War Hammers, ) and some have only 33.3 frames (ie. Maces, Spears)?

 

I see that spears have a 21 frame attack variation, which I think sort of brings them in line with the other average speed one-handers (not really clear if that is actually a 21 frame animation), but for example comparing Sabres and Maces, they both are average speed, and both have the same recovery and attack variation in your chart in the 1st post - but when I clear every other option and just choose a sabre or a mace, the base recovery changes in the tool.

 

I did read the thread (Skimmed some parts admittedly, but I did go through the whole thing and did not see any info to help me reconcile this). Can you tell me if I am missing something?

Yes, maces ans spears should have the same speed as sabres - it was probably an oversight.

[daveyeisley]

 

Hello MaxQuest. I just want to say THANK YOU sooooo much for this amazing tool you made and all the effort you invested to extract this data and make sense of these mechanics. Without your tool, I was pretty lost.

 

I did want to ask if I am seeing something in the tool incorrectly. I can't seem to find any reference as to why, at 10 dex for a default, some Average speed weapons have a base recovery of 50 frames (ie. Sabres, Swords, War Hammers, ) and some have only 33.3 frames (ie. Maces, Spears)?

 

I see that spears have a 21 frame attack variation, which I think sort of brings them in line with the other average speed one-handers (not really clear if that is actually a 21 frame animation), but for example comparing Sabres and Maces, they both are average speed, and both have the same recovery and attack variation in your chart in the 1st post - but when I clear every other option and just choose a sabre or a mace, the base recovery changes in the tool.

 

I did read the thread (Skimmed some parts admittedly, but I did go through the whole thing and did not see any info to help me reconcile this). Can you tell me if I am missing something?

Yes, maces ans spears should have the same speed as sabres - it was probably an oversight.

 

Thanks for responding. I suspected it might be, but this also makes me wonder which value is the correct one. Should it be 50 recovery frames do you think?

 

Do you know if MaxQuest is still active on this thread, or did I miss the boat?

[MaxQuest]

Hello MaxQuest. I just want to say THANK YOU sooooo much for this amazing tool you made and all the effort you invested to extract this data and make sense of these mechanics. Without your tool, I was pretty lost.

Glad to hear it. Seems that I motivated you to even make first post And thanks for reporting)

I did want to ask if I am seeing something in the tool incorrectly. I can't seem to find any reference as to why, at 10 dex for a default, some Average speed weapons have a base recovery of 50 frames (ie. Sabres, Swords, War Hammers, ) and some have only 33.3 frames (ie. Maces, Spears)?

That was an oversight. Maces and Spears have 30 frames base attack duration, and 50 frames base recovery duration. Fixed and updated the calculator) Edited February 11, 2018 by MaxQuest

[daveyeisley]

 

Hello MaxQuest. I just want to say THANK YOU sooooo much for this amazing tool you made and all the effort you invested to extract this data and make sense of these mechanics. Without your tool, I was pretty lost.

Glad to hear it. Seems that I motivated you to even make first post   

 

I did want to ask if I am seeing something in the tool incorrectly. I can't seem to find any reference as to why, at 10 dex for a default, some Average speed weapons have a base recovery of 50 frames (ie. Sabres, Swords, War Hammers, ) and some have only 33.3 frames (ie. Maces, Spears)?

That was an oversight. Maces and Spears have 30 frames base attack duration, and 50 frames base recovery duration. Fixed and updated the calculator)

 

Awesome, thank you again!

 

And yes, you may totally take credit for me registering and participating in the forums. I  admit that the mechanics and systems in PoE seemed initially very strange to me, and it took me until finding the Adra Dragon on Od Nua 15 with my level 10 party (and getting completely stomped a few times) to really begin to wrap my brain around the finer points (because I knew I needed to in order to win). 

 

Once I got the Accuracy axiom sorted out (ie. you need sufficient accuracy before you can land any debuffs, and in deadly fights you need time to buff accuracy  - therefore, you need action speed then Summons, and then accuracy buffs to give yourself a chance to win) I started trying to figure out action economy. By comparison to Accuracy, the action economy was incredibly confusing between weapon types, action animation, recovery, reload, action speed buffs, recovery penalty reduction, and then which ones will stack.

 

I googled the crap out of it nearly every single useful thread had a link back to your thread here as a definitive authority on the topic. When I finally dove in, I was extremely impressed by the clarity and disciplined methodology you used to ensure the information was as accurate as possible. When I saw something wasn't making sense to me, I first questioned if it was me misundertsanding, but after investigating and not being able to reconcile it, I knew my best course was to ask. 

 

I am glad that it wasn't me being dumb, but I do kinda wish the correct recovery value was 33 frames lol

 

Excited to have an answer, and even better that it helped improve the tool you made!

[MaxQuest]

Hah) and thank you for pointing this oversight out)

 

Curiously, looking for attack speed related answers is what brought me to these forums as well. And here we are, 2 years and 1600+ posts later

Edited February 11, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Madscientist]

Since you can see it in PoE2, I was asking myself:

What was the recovery time for spells and items in PoE1?

Did recovery depend on the casting time of the spell?

Which things boosted recovery for spells and items?

 

We had a lot of discussions about speed of weapons, but playing the PoE2 beta made me realized we talked little about the speed of other things.

[Boeroer]

Recovery time had no direct dependency on casting time in PoE. There are spells that have short casting time and long recovery and vice versa. But in general casting time is very short compared to Deadfire, especially for most cipher spells

 

In PoE, only DEX can speed up casting time. All other universal speed buffs (Oulander's Frenzy/Frenzy, Alacrity, Swift Aim, Swift Strikes, Spelltongue's Time Siphon, Time Parasite, the Champion invocation, Svef, Potion of Power, Potion of Alacrity, Gauntlets of Swift Action, Mourning Gloves, Bloodlust, Blood Thirst, Anitlei, Hastening Exh., Vielo Whatever, Vengeful Grief) "only" reduce recovery of all actions. Then there are other buffs that only influence certain actions (Sure Handed Ila only ranged weapons' recovery and reload, speed enchantment only the recovery of that particular weapon, durgan steel dito, durgan steel on shield only recovery of the main hand attack).

 

That worked quite well because as I already said the actual casting/animation times of most actions are rather short compared to Deadfire and most "speed balancing" is done with recovery.

 

But it also leads to a situation where you can skip recovery entirely (try Quick Switch + Coil of Resourcefulness) and since the casting animations themselves are rather short (compared to Deadfire) you can chain-cast in really, really fast succession if you don't mind the micromanagement.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Boeroer

[daveyeisley]

But it also leads to a situation that if you for example can skip recovery (try Quick Switch + Coil of Resourcefulness) you can chain-cast in really, really fast succession if you don't mind the micromanagement.

 

So PoE2 has slowed down casting, is that right?

 

Also, am I to understand that Quick Switch + Coil allows one to swap weapons instantly after casting, and this totally skips the recovery time, allowing the nest spell immediately?

[MaxQuest]

What was the recovery time for spells and items in PoE1?

Potions had 2.3s drinking duration followed by 0s recovery.

Or if you used my mod: 1.0s drinking + 0s recovery.

 

While spells had the following casting/recovery durations:

 

Did recovery depend on the casting time of the spell?

Surprise, but they actually did.

 

Unlike in Deadfire (where casting and recovery duration categories can be set separately for each spell), in PoE1 spells had no specific entry for recovery value, and it was calculated based on "attack" animation duration. Although in some cases it was done with a... twist.

 

As you might know, in PoE1 wielding a single weapon (1h or 2h, doesn't matter) was inuring a Single1HWeapRecovFactor penalty of -0.5.

And when you are dual-wielding... or casting a spell that penalty was not applied.

 

This was resulting in the following situation:

base_recovery_duration = base_attack_duration / 1.2 (for dw and casting)

base_recovery_duration = base_attack_duration / 0.6 (for the rest)

 

For example:

- casting Devotions for the Faithful: 60 frames casting + 60/1.2 = 50 frames recovery

- dual-wielding sabres: 30 frames attack + 30/1.2 = 25 frames recovery

- single-wielding sabre: 30 frames attack + 30/0.6 = 50 frames recovery

 

 

And then there was a twist. A handful of spells, specifically a very few cipher powers had an extra casting animation preceding the usual cycle. You can easily spot them by 0.277s recovery.

For example Whisper of Treason. Instead of having 35 frames cast duration followed by 35/1.2 = 29.166 recovery, it had: 74 frames casting followed by 10 frames casting followed by 10/1.2 = 8 frames recovery. Resulting in total 84 frames casting duration + 8 frames recovery; or 2.8s -> 0.277s. And that's why plate armored cipher could chain-cast it almost as fast as a naked one.

 

Another example would be Silent Scream. Instead of having 60 frames casting and 50 frames recovery duration, like other spells marked as "average"; I had same values as WoT: 74+10 casting and 10 recovery.

I call these powers: unusual. And they include: WoT, Eyestrike, Silent Scream and Ringleader. Maybe there is 1-2 more, but definitely not on the first 4 ranks, as iirc I checked those.

 

Which things boosted recovery for spells and items?

Open the calculator) Recovery of spells was affected by: Armor block, Gloves block, AttackSpeedMult. And in case of ranged spells also by RateOfFireMult.

And regarding Penetrating Shot: although it was providing bonus DR bypass for some spells, it wasn't increasing their recovery.

 

Generally you can just select dual-axes (non-durganized, without speed, and without two-weapon-style), and once you get zero-recovery due to various settings, you would get zero-recovery with spells too.

 

We had a lot of discussions about speed of weapons, but playing the PoE2 beta made me realized we talked little about the speed of other things.

The biggest change is that you can't get zero recovery in Deadfire; and as Boeroer mentioned that many effects now started to affect casting/attack phase. Meaning that we'll be able to cast really fast in the late game in Deadfire, provided that we'll have bloodlust and especially high alchemy score.

 

 

P.S. Fuh, and why do replies tend to end up that long?))

Edited February 13, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

I guess because Deadfire's Barbaric Blow now has an upgrade that lets you have 0 recovery after a kill we will no longer have Blood Thirst in the game. Bloodlust is in and Blood Thirst was lvl 7 in PoE but in Deadfire there's no Blood Thirst until lvl 9. So we might have to say goodbye to it. Although is one on the most fun mechanics of the barb in PoE.

 

Instead, we now have cascading Cleaving Stance for the fighter... 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Boeroer

[Madscientist]

Thank you MaxQuest.

This is most interesting. So both casting time and recovery time for spells are much longer in PoE2 (beta version 3) than in PoE1.

In PoE2 I used only spells with up to 3sec casting time, else I had the feeling that battle is over before I finish casting.