Obsidian's creative direaction

[Zoraptor]

 

Why don't you indulge us all with your inside knowledge about Parker and Alpha Protocol since you seem to know everything about it.

Not sure what you're saying here. I just thought it was obvious the project was in a state of complete disaster before Avellone, with help from Stout and MacLean, swooped in to save it.

 

 

And that pretty much encapsulates your problem. Your statements make logical sense as disconnected statements, but little to no sense as a cohesive whole. The writers who were replaced on AP weren't Chris Parker who you seem to blame, but Brian Mitsoda and Annie Carlson (later Mitsoda). So you've got one of your great lost writing assets (MCA) replacing a different lost great writing asset (Mitsoda) to- as you say- save a project. The original AP script was also, apparently, deadly serious as there ain't much room for humour if you're doing Syriana instead of Kill Bill. It's not a consistent position because you're starting from the conclusion and then picking evidence to support that conclusion rather than looking at evidence then working forward to the conclusion and that results in you using mutually contradictory evidence.

 

There's plenty to criticise about Obsidian and you won't get much stick if you do it fairly and logically. They clearly did have a problem with the production process on AP (and NWN2 too) for example, which resulted in both projects having a lot of wasted effort. But you're basically doing the equivalent of claiming that Ferret Baudoin was a major loss for Obsidian then saying thank goodness JES swooped in to save NWN2 next breath. It's logically inconsistent.

[RingMachine]

So you don't have any insight on Parker's follies considering Alpha Protocol and it's all just things you've made up in your head.

 

And why are you bringing the name recognition of the owners in the first place? When the whole point was that they aren't going to change how they view games just because bunch of writers left.

 

Again, just pure ****ing bs. Unless you are Chris Avellone or the very few people he has told why he left you are just making up stuff that would fit your agenda/view of things. I could counter that by telling you maybe he just left because he got too tanned in California and wants to live in a cooler environment. That's as valid point as yours when there's no actual facts for either case. Clearly throwing few people to work on Pathfinder game was what broke that camels back.

Chris Parker was the project director, Raymond Holmes was the lead designer. Mitsoda was the creative lead, which means he had less say on direction and design than the two previously mentioned guys. There's also that rumor from back in 2010 about how Parker managed the project horribly.

 

Monahan, Jones and Parker have done less for Obsidian than Feargus & Avellone and that means the former are less known than the latter. Not rocket science.

 

I like how you mentioned Pathfinder but not the tank MMO which is Obsidian's biggest game to date.

 

And that pretty much encapsulates your problem. Your statements make logical sense as disconnected statements, but little to no sense as a cohesive whole. The writers who were replaced on AP weren't Chris Parker who you seem to blame, but Brian Mitsoda and Annie Carlson (later Mitsoda). So you've got one of your great lost writing assets (MCA) replacing a different lost great writing asset (Mitsoda) to- as you say- save a project. The original AP script was also, apparently, deadly serious as there ain't much room for humour if you're doing Syriana instead of Kill Bill. It's not a consistent position because you're starting from the conclusion and then picking evidence to support that conclusion rather than looking at evidence then working forward to the conclusion and that results in you using mutually contradictory evidence.

 

There's plenty to criticise about Obsidian and you won't get much stick if you do it fairly and logically. They clearly did have a problem with the production process on AP (and NWN2 too) for example, which resulted in both projects having a lot of wasted effort. But you're basically doing the equivalent of claiming that Ferret Baudoin was a major loss for Obsidian then saying thank goodness JES swooped in to save NWN2 next breath. It's logically inconsistent.

I really doubt Mitsoda's version of the script would've been humorless. He himself said that Stout's version of Steven Heck is pretty much the same as the concept Mitsoda had for him, and some of that character's lines even stayed after the re-writing.

 

Development process has been a mess at Obsidian for the following projects:

 

- KOTOR2

- NWN2

- AP

- SP:TSoT

- PoE

 

Rumored:

 

- Dwarfs (according to some rumors I've read on the Codex)

- Aliens

 

As for NWN2 vs AP, Avellone made his game good, Sawyer made his game passable enough for release. But to be fair, Avellone had a lot more time.

[Flouride]

You still didn't give any insight into Parker's so called follies. None.

And you still didn't get my point. Whether or not Monahan and Parker are well known is irrelevant when it comes to what kinda games Obsidian will make in the future or have made in the past. None. So you bringing them to the conversation makes practically no sense at all. Feargus is and will be the face of the company alongside what ever employees they hire.

 

So let's talk about Armored Warfare. Why is it wrong that they are doing Armored Warfare? It's not like that they making just pure tank battles, there's a story the forming up as well. Not much, but some at least. And if you can't realize why a company in brink of destruction would take such a deal, well you are even stupider than you seem to be. Not to mention in the long term if the game is succesful it would allow Obsidian to self fund their smaller cRPGs for years to come and constant work on such project allows and allowed them to keep their employees working. What a **** move from Feargus, clearly he should have fired everyone involved in the project instead.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Flouride

[RingMachine]

Everything points to him being a bad director, so I'm not sure what more you want me to say. By the way, Mitsoda isn't the only one that left when MCA took over. Holmes, the first lead designer, did too, which implies the mess had to do with the project as a whole and not just with Mitsoda's script as you two seem to think.

 

I already addressed this point about the owners in my very first post about this subject. Recap: the owners didn't contribute nearly as much to the narrative and writing aspect of Obsidian as Avellone did. Ergo, you're kidding yourself if you think this won't affect Obsidian's writing department, especially considering the studio's current policy of making their RPGs as safe as possible.

 

You talked about the size of the Pathfinder team and I talked about the size of the AW team. You're the one that implied Pathfinder's small team size is evidence for these projects not changing anything at Obsidian.

 

If this convo is making you this angry then you probably need to chill.

[Flouride]

What? I never said Mitsoda's script was to blame. I only stated that they rewrote most of his dialogue when Avellone took over. No one knows if it was Sega, Parker, ISIS or Mitsoda&Holmes who is to blame or maybe all together for Alpha Protocol and it's difficult production. At least no one that is willing to talk about it openly.

 

But you also said Avellone "Apparently, Avellone's title as 'chief creative officer' didn't mean much in the grand scheme of things over at Obsidian." So which one is it? He had a huge impact on the writing at Obsidian or he didn't?

Safe games? Really? They've released... one game. One game of their own and it's the end of the world apparently that PoE didn't fit your or RPGCodex's criteria of a mature themed game. Their previous game South Park for example was in no way safe when it comes writing, and yes I know, it comes with the IP. This whole rant is basically over PoE and it's writing, I would understand if they had released Tyranny and you didn't like it either, but going on and on over one game is pretty pointless to me. It's pretty much obvious why they wanted to try to something "safe" with PoE and it's Kickstarter campaign. Doesn't mean they will just make that same game over and over again for eternity.

 

And no, I didn't say Pathfinders small team size is evidence of things not changing at Obsidian. You brought up both Pathfinder and Armored Warfare as a possible reason for Avellone leaving.... hence I replied that the 5 odd people working on it must have been what broke the camels back.

 

They have 4 games in development. One card game, one MMO tank game and 2x cRPGs + whatever they've got planned next. They can't get a AAA contract for a cRPG in the current market place as we've seen in the last 2-3 years. So instead of kicking out 50 people or maybe be even closing down the company, Feargus takes something else and still manages to have them working on 2 x cRPGs at the same time, just like before, but instead of them being big *** budget games, they have smaller teams working on them and they have more control over the games than previously. How is that a bad thing? Even when at their peak, they had 2 games in development + whatever they had planned next. So they changed with the industry and like I pointed out the long term plans with AW could mean more and larger games from them in the cRPG field.

[RingMachine]

"But you also said Avellone "Apparently, Avellone's title as 'chief creative officer' didn't mean much in the grand scheme of things over at Obsidian." So which one is it? He had a huge impact on the writing at Obsidian or he didn't?"

 

It's a combination of both. He couldn't decide which games they would make or which settings they worked on. For example, Feargus and Jones are the ones who came up with the idea of a Spy RPG, and apparently he had no say on whether they would work on Aliens. On the other hand, he's responsible for a lot of Obsidian's best writing, as you probably already know. KotOR2, Kaelyn, Old World Blues, Durance and the like. Avellone's also the one who interviewed Ziets for his job at Obsidian, coincidentally.

 

"Safe games? Really? They've released... one game. One game of their own and it's the end of the world apparently that PoE didn't fit your or RPGCodex's criteria of a mature themed game. Their previous game South Park for example was in no way safe when it comes writing, and yes I know, it comes with the IP. This whole rant is basically over PoE and it's writing, I would understand if they had released Tyranny and you didn't like it either, but going on and on over one game is pretty pointless to me."

 

These are Obsidian's games in the last five years: Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder card game, Dungeon Siege 3, and South Park. PoE isn't a mature themed game. (Seriously, some of the descriptive text reads like a bad fanfiction writer tried to copy Planescape and utterly failed. Eric Fenstermaker himself even admitted some of the writing is plain bad.) South Park is the definition of safe, not for its writing, but for basically being a clone of Skyrim. The other two don't even need an explanation.

 

"It's pretty much obvious why they wanted to try to something "safe" with PoE and it's Kickstarter campaign. Doesn't mean they will just make that same game over and over again for eternity."

 

No, I don't think it's obvious. I'm pretty sure they didn't want to disappoint their backers. (Or maybe they did considering all the talk from Sawyer about how he hates Baldur's Gate.)

[aluminiumtrioxid]

PoE isn't a mature themed game. 

 

Yes it frikkin' is. Does the writing have patches where the subject calls for an incredible amount of subtlety and nuance, and what we get fails to live up to that expectation? Sure it has! The entire ending is weak and thematically unsupported by anything preceding it. Ondra's dialogue in WM2 is incredibly weakly written, in light of the ending. But are the themes the game is riffing on mature and interesting? Yes they are, and only the uniquely willful obtuseness of the codexian consensus can make anyone claim otherwise.

Edited April 7, 2016 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Infinitron]

Development process has been a mess at Obsidian for the following projects:

 

- KOTOR2

- NWN2

- AP

- SP:TSoT

- PoE

 

 

Wait, I thought Fallout: New Vegas was a mess too because it came out buggy and got an 84 Metacritic. 

 

 

Eric Fenstermaker himself even admitted some of the writing is plain bad.

South Park is the definition of safe, not for its writing, but for basically being a clone of Skyrim.

(Or maybe they did considering all the talk from Sawyer about how he hates Baldur's Gate.)

 

lolwut. Fess up, who is this?

 

Since you swear by Codex content, you might want to remind yourself of the response to the final question in our interview with Eric.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Infinitron

[Flouride]

Without knowing exactly what kinda partnership agreement Feargus & pals have, it's kinda hard to say whether or not Chris should have had a say on Aliens or not. I think working on Aliens:Crucible definately was a good idea and not every plan needs to come out of Avellone's pen/mouth. Therefore the fact that Feargus&Jones came up with Alpha Protocol doesn't really say much. It's a company, not Avellone's personal think tank.

If you think about it in normal company environment, he was the creative head of the company, but when it comes to actual business decisions CEO normally decides which projects they should go after and taking the deal on Aliens is a business decision. Coming up with the story etc. is a creative decision and that's where Avellone should step in and do his magic.

 

PoE is a mature themed game for about half of us, even at Codex. There's no universal truth about it, such as about half of Codex seemed to enjoy the game just well enough.

 

So Feargus should have declined the offer to work on South Park? How is it even related to Skyrim, because they do a parody of some sorts of the it? Gameplay, writing etc. don't play out like they do in Skyrim though...

Oh, Pathfinder again... Yes, those 5 people working on it must be really nagging at you. They had a chance to work on a IP and they took it, after all this might lead to them working on Pathfinder cRPG. Another safe choice or a wise business decision when there weren't a plentitude of IPs being offered at them?

Dungeon Siege 3 was a safe bet. But then again there are reasons for it. They needed to showcase that they can deliver a bugfree came and get rid of their Bugsidian reputation. It still had some Ziets magic when it came to writing.

 

You seem to have some weird childlike fantasy about how much power a indie company have on what games they work on. it's not like there's plenty of publishers out there looking for developers (outside of their own company) to work on cRPGs. Actually, I can't think of anyone right now. Ubisoft only does internal stuff, EA has BioWare, Take-Two hasn't released one like ever, Atari hahahaha, Microsoft decided not publish Stormlands, Activision has Blizzard, WB seems to be working with internal studios as well, Sega thing obviously didn't work out.... that doesn't leave that many companies that can put out games for Obsidian. Not at least AAA size games and as I pointed out already they've switched their games to fit smaller publishers (as proven by Tyranny) and Kickstarter/self-publishing as proven by PoE.
Things don't just happen in a week, it takes time to steer that oil tanker. And by the way, they are doing a lot better than when Stormlands was cancelled. So your timing sucks in that sense. So I repeat.... this is all about PoE not fitting your criteria and Avellone leaving and you basically have no patience to wait it out and see how their next cRPGs will turn out.

 

Fenstermaker also said that some of the writing in the game from him is bad because he was working of South Park at the time as well and that took it's toll. As I already pointed out. He never commented other peoples work on the game as you seem to imply by leaving that part out.

 

At this point, I think nothing is obvious to you...

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'm out of the loop, but what other cRPG besides Tyranny is Obsidian working on?

[Flouride]

I'm out of the loop, but what other cRPG besides Tyranny is Obsidian working on?

 

Sawyer has been hinting at PoE2

[RingMachine]

Wait, I thought Fallout: New Vegas was a mess too because it came out buggy and got an 84 Metacritic. 

You're right, New Vegas is the most disastrous game release Obsidian ever did because they didn't get any royalties nor a bonus for it. Just imagine where the company would be today if they did get royalties for it.

 

P.S: you can thank Avellone for letting us know about that Metacritic thing.

 

lolwut. Fess up, who is this?

 

Since you swear by Codex content, you might want to remind yourself of the response to the final question in our interview with Eric.

Don't have a Codex account. Seriously.

 

And the thing Fenstermaker said is a statement from Obsidian, not 'Codex content' or whatever you call it.

 

As for your pre-edit comment: it's called 'reading between the lines'. I guess you're just not used to hearing these criticisms outside the Codex.

 

Without knowing exactly what kinda partnership agreement Feargus & pals have, it's kinda hard to say whether or not Chris should have had a say on Aliens or not. I think working on Aliens:Crucible definately was a good idea and not every plan needs to come out of Avellone's pen/mouth. Therefore the fact that Feargus&Jones came up with Alpha Protocol doesn't really say much. It's a company, not Avellone's personal think tank.

If you think about it in normal company environment, he was the creative head of the company, but when it comes to actual business decisions CEO normally decides which projects they should go after and taking the deal on Aliens is a business decision. Coming up with the story etc. is a creative decision and that's where Avellone should step in and do his magic.

That doesn't change the fact that the small amount of rights Avellone had as a co-owner was ridiculous. Someone with his title should have a say on what they're working.

 

PoE is a mature themed game for about half of us, even at Codex. There's no universal truth about it, such as about half of Codex seemed to enjoy the game just well enough.

"Just well enough" is practically the lowest bar Obsidian could've set.

 

So Feargus should have declined the offer to work on South Park? How is it even related to Skyrim, because they do a parody of some sorts of the it? Gameplay, writing etc. don't play out like they do in Skyrim though...

Feargus should've negotiated better terms so the writing team at Obsidian could've been more involved. It's ridiculous they only had one in-house writer on the game when their writing staff was the strongest aspect of Obsidian. (The UI artists seem to be the strongest side of the company nowadays.)

The quest structure and C&C is basically the same as Skyrim btw.

 

Oh, Pathfinder again... Yes, those 5 people working on it must be really nagging at you. They had a chance to work on a IP and they took it, after all this might lead to them working on Pathfinder cRPG. Another safe choice or a wise business decision when there weren't a plentitude of IPs being offered at them?

Literally who wants a Pathfinder cRPG from Obsidian? DS3, Pillars, and Tyranny are already more than enough generic fantasy.

 

Dungeon Siege 3 was a safe bet. But then again there are reasons for it. They needed to showcase that they can deliver a bugfree came and get rid of their Bugsidian reputation. It still had some Ziets magic when it came to writing.

Too bad for Ziets that DS3 is one of the very few projects where Obsidian didn't have complete control over the story and writing. It must've been hell for him being so artistically constrained for years when he was working on it.

 

it's not like there's plenty of publishers out there looking for developers (outside of their own company) to work on cRPGs. Actually, I can't think of anyone right now. Ubisoft only does internal stuff, EA has BioWare, Take-Two hasn't released one like ever, Atari hahahaha, Microsoft decided not publish Stormlands, Activision has Blizzard, WB seems to be working with internal studios as well, Sega thing obviously didn't work out.... that doesn't leave that many companies that can put out games for Obsidian.

I know, I already said this in one of my earlier posts in this thread. This all goes back to one of my original points about how Obsidian played its cards badly over the years and are now paying the price for it.

 

Things don't just happen in a week, it takes time to steer that oil tanker. And by the way, they are doing a lot better than when Stormlands was cancelled.

I would've preferred for Obsidian to die in 2012 than go on like this.

 

So your timing sucks in that sense. So I repeat.... this is all about PoE not fitting your criteria and Avellone leaving and you basically have no patience to wait it out and see how their next cRPGs will turn out.

Avellone isn't even necessarily my favorite writer. I thought Bloodlines and MotB were both better written than any of his games.

 

Anyway, here's a fun picture of Feargus from 2011 that I'm posting here just 'cause.

 

[Flouride]

Yes, because clearly there is a game out there that no one at Codex hates/dislikes or just purely trolls about... so yeah, when half of that schizofrenic population likes the game, it's quite well.

 

Yes, clearly Matt&Trey were just waiting to hand over their precious South Park to a bunch of computer game writers and not have any control over it at all. Matt&Trey are South Park, the reason the game works for the tv series fans is their involvement in the project. They would be handicapped from the get go if Matt's and Trey's role in the game was smaller.

 

Pathfinder fans? There seems to be some of those around. Since we don't even know when the negotiations for the IP was started, we can't really say for sure if Obsidian had PoE and/or Tyranny even in development. For now with both PoE2 and Tyranny they are just fine when it comes to fantasy IPs. And since Paradox and Obsidian seem to be doing fine, I would not be very surprised if after Tyranny they would create a WoD game.

 

Calling Tyranny generic at this point is well... stupid. Unless of course you again know more than the rest of us.

 

I don't think they played their cards wrong. The change was really sudden when Microsoft decided to kill Stormlands, just as it was with Aliens. I still think Sega messed up when they cancelled that game. Colonial Marines might have looked better on paper, but at least Obsidian wanted to deliever a good game. whoever made Colonial Marines... not so much when they had their own IPs to work on. Kickstarter wasn't really a thing back then and the marketplace wasn't as indie as it is now. It was getting there, but there weren't clear indications that the games would sell well enough. Then Wasteland 2 Kickstarter happened and everyone could see there was hope for it. I also respect Feargus for not starting a 2nd campaign before PoE was even out, he could have easily done that and got millions from it as well with the right pitch.

[RingMachine]

If Obsidian's writers had more control on SP then we would have probably seen some more narrative reactivity and less banal fetch quests.

Anyway, what I said about Ziets caused me to look over an interview he did a while back last year:

In the case of Dungeon Siege, I think my biggest regret was not pushing harder against some of the narrative goals and constraints that I didn’t agree with… and which ultimately led to a bland experience, in my opinion.The toughest criticism I’ve faced was on Dungeon Siege 3, which wasn’t as successful as we’d hoped. Many players found the narrative (which was my focus as Creative Lead) to be a disappointment. Even though I knew why the narrative didn’t meet these players’ expectations, and I agreed with most of the criticisms, it was disappointing to have spent two years on a project that didn’t excite our fans.

http://grimuar.pl/interview/george-ziets

 

Reading this is so ****ing depressing. At least he's working on a project he's passionate about now.

[Flouride]

Even with more writers from Obsidian doesn't mean Matt & Trey would have automatically seen the light and agreed on what Obsidian wants to do with the game. There was learning curve there for Matt & Trey which they even themselves acknowledged afterwards.  Had there been a 2nd Obsidian South Park, it might have ended up with more Obsidian writers.

[Quillon]

On the whole thread up till now I agree with RoM on most things, share his concerns etc but I'm not sure Obs is in an irreversable state. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

On the "playing it safe" argument. I don't think they are necessarily playing it safe with writing but its obvious they are playing it safe by making the same type of game technically(small budget, 2D/PoE style). If they are working on PoE 2 also atm(I don't think they are unlike some) they are playing it even safer. It can be good for Obs but its not good for me, a customer. I used to think they played it safe with the writing of PoE and stated it somewhere here also but I realized they had to follow the pattern, fulfill on those promises of kickstarter which shaped the game effectively, if they were loose on the promises, get creative maybe we'd have classless system etc which would maybe made the game better but at the same time made most backers unhappy. Latest example of how the vision of the game set in stone by nostalgia: JES' GDC presentation.

 

Also what's so special about Pathfinder? I have zero clue about it and the name screams "generic fantasy".

 

Before PoE I was neutral about "PoE style" but now I decided I don't like it. I replay RPGs many times and my latest sessions with PoE the 2D style and how unimmersive it is(to me) made me wanna not continue. I'm sure I'll enjoy my first maybe second playthrough of Tyranny but no more. And I want games like New Vegas, AP, WTMB which I can and did play more than 5 times each which the type of games it seems Obs won't be making in the near future. Currently only thing keeping my interest in this company is what they are doing with unreal engine, if they are still doing something with it. I hope it is their dire-action : p 

[Blodhemn]

While I want those type games too(Bloodlines, Alpha Protocol, New Vegas), it really isn't up to Obsidian. They simply can't finance those kind of games on their own. I enjoyed Stick of Truth quite a bit despite the repetitive nature - it was a pretty fresh experience and was the first Obsidian game I had played since New Vegas. I just have zero interest in cRPG isometric fantasy, but if that's what it takes for Obsidian to stay afloat until their next interesting opportunity arises then I'm all for it(still won't play them though).

[Blodhemn]

Forgot to touch on the point of Obsidian's waning writers and it hurting them - I don't see it. As much as everyone loves Avellone, he hasn't been integral to Obsidian for quite a long time. To mention the project that was touched by both Mitsoda and Avellone in Alpha Protocol, despite both being premium writers of the industry, neither prospered afterwards in Obsidian even though the game was good and I'm not sure it was something Avellone wanted to be a part of anyway. That just seems to be the nature of the beast. The lesser known writers always seem to prove themselves when the opportunity arises and I have no doubt that will continue. If there's something to complain about, I'd say the quality of quests could be better. New Vegas was so loaded with filler fetch quests it's as if they were the top priority. Still it's a good game for what it accomplished, and still fun for slow paced, escapism gaming. I can't speak on PoE writing, but the Stick of Truth writing was mainly good outside of the cinematics.

[Oerwinde]

Forgot to touch on the point of Obsidian's waning writers and it hurting them - I don't see it. As much as everyone loves Avellone, he hasn't been integral to Obsidian for quite a long time. To mention the project that was touched by both Mitsoda and Avellone in Alpha Protocol, despite both being premium writers of the industry, neither prospered afterwards in Obsidian even though the game was good and I'm not sure it was something Avellone wanted to be a part of anyway. That just seems to be the nature of the beast. The lesser known writers always seem to prove themselves when the opportunity arises and I have no doubt that will continue. If there's something to complain about, I'd say the quality of quests could be better. New Vegas was so loaded with filler fetch quests it's as if they were the top priority. Still it's a good game for what it accomplished, and still fun for slow paced, escapism gaming. I can't speak on PoE writing, but the Stick of Truth writing was mainly good outside of the cinematics.

 

Yeah, while Avellone's contributions were often the best stuff in Obsidian's games, it seemed like Obsidian wasn't giving him enough to sink his teeth into, hence him getting loaned out to several projects and eventually going mercenary.

[Flouride]

https://www.facebook.com/timothycain?fref=ts

 

Leonard Boyarsky joined Obsidian?

[J.Burke]

 

I would've preferred for Obsidian to die in 2012 than go on like this.

 

 

Statements like this are pretty ridiculous and make it hard to take you seriously.

 

Why would you ever wish for the unemployment of 100+ people and closure of a company because you, personally, don't like what they have done? How is that better than just not buying what they make?

 

Clearly, lots of people loved post 2012 Obsidian games. This is why they are still in business.

[fkldnhlsdngsfnhlsndlg]

 

 

I would've preferred for Obsidian to die in 2012 than go on like this.

 

 

Statements like this are pretty ridiculous and make it hard to take you seriously.

 

Why would you ever wish for the unemployment of 100+ people and closure of a company because you, personally, don't like what they have done? How is that better than just not buying what they make?

 

Clearly, lots of people loved post 2012 Obsidian games. This is why they are still in business.

 

 

It's really easy to be a jerk over the internet to people you don't know.

[Infinitron]

 

 

It's really easy to be a jerk over the internet to people you don't know.

 

 

Hey, I thought you didn't post on forums with jerks anymore.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

It's really easy to be a jerk over the internet to people you don't know.

 

 

Hey, I thought you didn't post on forums with jerks anymore.

Wouldn't that mean dropping every forum?

[HoonDing]

it would be better though for Lynyrd Skynyrd be in charge of the music.