Tidefall Paladin Advice

[bigwillystyle]

So it turns out that Drakes on PotD are pretty damn tough for a level 5 party. I guess I'll be coming back for Tidefall later 

 

EDIT: They're still tough at level 6, but I managed. Cail the Silent has always been a walkover on my hard playthroughs but here he was genuinely a pretty tough fight. I've also found a new fondness for Prayer Against Fear.

 

Anyway, I now have Tidefall. Would I be right in thinking the best Lash to put on it would be Burning, since I'm eventually planning on taking Scion of Flames?

 

heh heh, Priest's Prayer spells become so much more useful on POTD.

 

I personally like the look of Burning Lash, and it matches well with Scion.  If you're eventually going to have a Stormcaller user, could be useful to go Lightning Lash for the 6DR debuff.  But Burning is probably your best bet.  

[JerekKruger]

Jerek, unless you have the Gloves of Manipulation and/or the scroll that enhances Mechanics skill, and/or perhaps even a Mechanics skill boost from an inn or your stronghold, I'm not sure that a level 5 party could have a character with a high enough Mechanics skill to even spot where Tidefall's hidden.  I suppose that it's possible though.  (And I'm thinking you probably know this, not that I think about it.)

 

I had the Gloves of Manipulation and the +2 Mechanics resting bonus from Caed Nua so I was okay. I knew from past attempts to rush Tidefall that it required a lot of mechanics to get.

[JerekKruger]

heh heh, Priest's Prayer spells become so much more useful on POTD.

 

I personally like the look of Burning Lash, and it matches well with Scion.  If you're eventually going to have a Stormcaller user, could be useful to go Lightning Lash for the 6DR debuff.  But Burning is probably your best bet.  

 

I went with flaming, I hadn't thought of the Stormcaller synergy but I decided it fitted with my flame theme anyway.

 

Yeah, I pretty much ignored fear on hard mode. It was only once I was fighting Drake's and noticing how many grazes and misses I was getting that I realised you really can't when the enemies have +15 deflection.

 

I have to admit my favourite part of playing on PotD so far is that I actually have to think carefully about how to use my spellcasters. I have to make sure I target defences the enemy are weak against, same with DRs, and it becomes important to counter some enemy afflictions.

[JerekKruger]

Okay Strange Mercy is pretty awesome, but it does have one downside: all that healing means my tank's health pool depletes really fast, making his second chance armour more of a liability than anything else.

[Gromnir]

forgemaster's gloves. if you wanna build a melee damage dealing paladin, forgemaster's gloves is the item you build your character 'round.  take any ability/talent that boosts fire damage, and take talents that enhance your 2-handed weapon damage output.  simple. as such, tidefall is a nifty backup weapon.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Crucis]

Okay Strange Mercy is pretty awesome, but it does have one downside: all that healing means my tank's health pool depletes really fast, making his second chance armour more of a liability than anything else.

 

Actually, I see something like Shod-In-Faith boots as being much worse than 2nd Chance items, because 2nd chance only procs when you get knocked out, but SiF procs whenever you get crit'd.  And you can burn through a LOT of HP when you're getting constantly healed without actually getting knocked out.  You might never even realize how much health you're losing.  Your END may never get all that low, as long as you're being constantly being healed by SiF boots or other sources of regen/healing. 

 

It can happen a lot for a high Might Fighter with Constant and Rapid Recovery, plus that cloak that also enhances Recovery.

[JerekKruger]

I always forget how high the damage is on Firebrand compared to an ordinary great sword. I'm not sure I'll use it that much, as I tend to forget to use per rest abilities, but I definitely will grab those gloves. If nothing else Firebrand has got to be good against some of the enemies who are weak against burning in the White March.

 

Yeah, that might not help either Crucis. My Paladin currently wears Shod in Faith and my main source of healing from Durance is Consecrated Ground...

[Crucis]

I always forget how high the damage is on Firebrand compared to an ordinary great sword. I'm not sure I'll use it that much, as I tend to forget to use per rest abilities, but I definitely will grab those gloves. If nothing else Firebrand has got to be good against some of the enemies who are weak against burning in the White March.

 

Yeah, that might not help either Crucis. My Paladin currently wears Shod in Faith and my main source of healing from Durance is Consecrated Ground...

 

Don't get me wrong.  A character who burns through a ton of Health because he's getting constantly healed could possibly end up knocked out otherwise.  It may just be the cost of doing business, so to speak. 

 

And yeah, Consecrated Ground seems like a far better healing spell than any of the Restore END spells.  The only advantage that the Restore spells have over CG is that they can be cast up to 5m from the priest whereas CG is a 0 range spell (with a 2.5m AoE radius).

 

 

Also, a downside of the Firebrand flamesword from the gloves is that, IIRC, it doesn't have any accuracy bonus.  As you start using exceptional or better weapons, the loss of this accuracy bonus when using the Firebrand would seem to be a bit of a downer to me.

[Boeroer]

I would always prefer prophylactic defense buffs over healing (if you have). What I mean is that I would always cast something like Circle of Defense or Reinforcing Exhortation etc. before the enemy touches me. That way your health loss will be lower. Both combined is the best of course. I like Shod-in-Faith a lot because with high MIG and INT you can combine good dps with a big AoE and healing. They are no use if your deflection is too high though. Maybe that's why I nearly always put them on my barbs who tend to stand in the center of the front line. Tons over tons of health make a difference here.

Good thing about Strange Mercy and Shepherd is that your deflection doesn't have to be gimped at all in order to make them useful.

I would not put any second chance items on my front row if I had that much healing going on. I would reserve those for my backline. Those guys go down from time to time if they get targeted - but they seldomly have health issues. So this 1/rest revive makes sense on them. This is also the only situation where I find that "dead man stands" boots are useful: you are at 0 endurance, the enemy will turn away. You will stand there for 3 secs and after that you fall down and get up again. This 3 sec delay between ko and revive can prevent that the enemy just keeps on pummeling the squishy when he gets revived.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Boeroer

[Gromnir]

 

I always forget how high the damage is on Firebrand compared to an ordinary great sword. I'm not sure I'll use it that much, as I tend to forget to use per rest abilities, but I definitely will grab those gloves. If nothing else Firebrand has got to be good against some of the enemies who are weak against burning in the White March.

 

Yeah, that might not help either Crucis. My Paladin currently wears Shod in Faith and my main source of healing from Durance is Consecrated Ground...

 

Don't get me wrong.  A character who burns through a ton of Health because he's getting constantly healed could possibly end up knocked out otherwise.  It may just be the cost of doing business, so to speak. 

 

And yeah, Consecrated Ground seems like a far better healing spell than any of the Restore END spells.  The only advantage that the Restore spells have over CG is that they can be cast up to 5m from the priest whereas CG is a 0 range spell (with a 2.5m AoE radius).

 

 

Also, a downside of the Firebrand flamesword from the gloves is that, IIRC, it doesn't have any accuracy bonus.  As you start using exceptional or better weapons, the loss of this accuracy bonus when using the Firebrand would seem to be a bit of a downer to me.

 

forgemaster's gloves is one o' the more ridiculous overpowered items in the game, particularly for a fire focused paladin or a carnage barbarian.  the melee damage paladin who is gonna be using sworn enemy and flames of devotion to bolster accuracy while firebrand is active will laugh at accuracy. play darcozzi paladini and the +10 accuracy you can give yourself every encounter will see you consistent criting from mid-levels onward. 3 per rest and 30 second duration o' a fire weapon for a paladin with scion o' flame is overkill.  watch the world burn... even when facing fire resistant enemies. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 7, 2016 by Gromnir

[Crucis]

The accuracy boost you get from FoD is only good for that specific attack.  And I suppose you could use both of your FoD's while you have the Firebrand sword up.  But that's only good for TWO attacks, and the Firebrand's duration is 30 seconds, so you're going to have a few swings of the blade left without any FoD enhanced accuracy.

[Gromnir]

the firebrand itself does critworthy damage w/o needing to crit and the universal weapon currently counts as fine, so you do get +4 accuracy.  that being said, with 2 fod attacks (why would you Not use fod with your firebrand active?) AND sworn enemy, your melee paladin, played intelligent, is gonna be having boosted accuracy for a fair portion o' your 30 seconds o' firebrand.  by midway through the game there is gonna be few battles where your main melee damage dealer ain't benefiting from at least a couple accuracy buffs regardless, yes? as many people have noted elsewhere, zealous focus becomes relative less useful as the game progresses precisely because it becomes increasingly easy to boost accuracy.  becoming overly concerned with a shortfall in accuracy given the enormous damage benefits o' firebrand is, in our opinion, a mistake.

 

pallegina is, of course, a better option than any main character paladin for a melee paladin, but it doesn't take much experimentation to see how ridiculous overpowered is forgemaster gloves.  

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/85343-post-30-paladins/?p=1792507

 

we never have bothered with a main paladin melee damage character, but the potential o' such a character, armed with forgemaster's gloves is considerable.  you are stacking multiple burn effects that is all being boosted by scion o' flame.  is overkill.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Boeroer]

Maybe a monk with Firebrand is even better? He can have +50% burn damage via Turning Wheel for a lot more than 2 attacks and his ACC is a little higher than a paladin's of the same level. With his Swift Strikes he could maybe hit more often than a paladin and with Iron Wheel he could skip armor recovery malus at all...?

[Elric Galad]

Rogue with firebrand is another option. In the great scheme of things, paladin are not exactly a top tier class in melee. They are inferior to anybody but casters and chanters.

 

That does not mean Paladin can't damages in melee. But a true melee DPS would do better (Paladins have many other strenghts.). In this case the slight bonus is you would anyway pick Scion of Flames with your paladin, so it's not a bad idea.

 

But I'm always surprised about how many people want to build a DPS paladin.

[bigwillystyle]

Nah, it's Barbarian with Carnage & Bloodthirst all the way.  Whack, whack, whack, whack, every time we kill, recovery = 0.  At level 7, it's awesome.  I only ever slowed down in  Galvino's workshop.  Too many hp to chew through to get bloodthirst consistently.

[Boeroer]

Since you're using a great sword anyway: Why didn't you give your barb St.Ydwen's Redeemer? If he destroys a vessel it sounts as kill and will trigger Bloodthirst. And since you have carnage it will trigger every second swing at least (as long as there are still some vessels around).

 

By the way, talking about vessels: Any character with high MIG and INT plus Scion of Flame who wants to be a vessel killer shoud consider taking Sanctifier and Acolyte's Radiance. It's not as good as the original of couse, but it's not bad either. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

But I'm always surprised about how many people want to build a DPS paladin.

 

I think it's simply a matter of wanting to make a class do something it's not naturally designed to do. It's probably similar to people who want to make Rogue tanks I imagine.

[Gromnir]

 

But I'm always surprised about how many people want to build a DPS paladin.

 

I think it's simply a matter of wanting to make a class do something it's not naturally designed to do. It's probably similar to people who want to make Rogue tanks I imagine.

 

is the same reason why some people teach dogs to walk on their hind legs. the results is awkward and embarrassing, but nevertheless, people frequent applaud the mildly disturbing displays o' canine obedience.  the game has been released for a over a year now and those o' us who remain has all seen fido roll-over and fetch.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Crucis]

Rogue with firebrand is another option. In the great scheme of things, paladin are not exactly a top tier class in melee. They are inferior to anybody but casters and chanters.

 

That does not mean Paladin can't damages in melee. But a true melee DPS would do better (Paladins have many other strengths.). In this case the slight bonus is you would anyway pick Scion of Flames with your paladin, so it's not a bad idea.

 

But I'm always surprised about how many people want to build a DPS paladin.

 

I suspect that a great many of those people do it because that's how they feel paladins should have been in the first place, rather than the leader/support class that the devs foisted on the players.  Paladins may have "many other strengths", but I suspect that those are strengths that many players would give up in a heartbeat for a more offensively oriented paladin class.  Oh, some of their abilities are nice enough, but it seems to me that if you really want a support second line support character that can do these things, a priest can do them just as well, even if he has to do them a little differently.  I think that a lot of players would rather that the paladin class was a class of "holy warriors" (I use that term loosely...) than what they are today.  And that's why I think you see a lot of players trying to play them that way, regardless of how the class is designed.

[Boeroer]

is the same reason why some people teach dogs to walk on their hind legs. the results is awkward and embarrassing, but nevertheless, people frequent applaud the mildly disturbing displays o' canine obedience.  the game has been released for a over a year now and those o' us who remain has all seen fido roll-over and fetch.

Where would we be if people always did what wisebutts tell them they are supposed to do?

[JerekKruger]

I think what Crucis said is partly true for me, though I quite like Paladin's in the tank/support hybrid role, and I really think they are comparable to Fighters as tanks in the current game (pre 2.0 Fighters were a lot better due to the old gluing with engagement strategy, now I think Fighters are best built as tank/damage dealer hybrids).

 

For me though, part of why I wanted to play a damage dealing Paladin was because it best fitted the image of the character I wanted to play, namely a knightly type character wielding a great sword. The only other class that could have pulled that off for me would be the Fighter, but I just can't get excited about Fighters.

 

Anyway, things go well for my Paladin. I was surprised by how easy the ogre attack on Stalwart was for a level 8 party on PotD, but I am quite nervous about facing lagufeth. I took a minor detour to Cliaban Rilag after picking up the Redeemer to level it (only place I could remember having spirits I hadn't done yet and now I'm going to do Russetwood. I think I'll leave Longwatch Falls till after Durgan n/a Battery this time.

[Gromnir]

 

is the same reason why some people teach dogs to walk on their hind legs. the results is awkward and embarrassing, but nevertheless, people frequent applaud the mildly disturbing displays o' canine obedience.  the game has been released for a over a year now and those o' us who remain has all seen fido roll-over and fetch.

Where would we be if people always did what wisebutts tell them they are supposed to do?

 

is not a matter o' following what we is told to do.  lord knows we wouldn't be such a poe priest fan if we listened to "supposed to."  that being said, the abilities o' the paladin, particularly in the early beta, made OBJECTIVELY clear that the paladin were not ideal suited to damage output.  the class has evolved, with the most notable dps addition being fod, and now one can frankenstein a very capable melee combatant outta the paladin, but is silly to ignore the class inherent strengths and weaknesses. 

 

*shrug*

 

Gromnir is typical the guy fighting 'gainst the dominant paradyme, so is not a matter o' following "supposed to" advice, but it not take a william j. sidis to figure out that paladins is a poor fit for optimizing the melee dps role. fine.  we not need optimal.  can still be fun (more fun) to play non optimal, but am thinking one does a disservice to self if they ain't at least aware o' the class limitations.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Blades of Vanatar]

What I like most about PoE is that no matter what I 'Think' a class should be I am able to adapt most classes to any role that I have wanted them to be. Equipment being prominent in build development makes this possible as does the addition of cross-class abilities. And of course open mindedness.

 

In the case of the Paladin he can be effective as a Tank, Hybrid Tank/Damage Dealer, a Buffer or a Healer. Only PoTD limits character design. Which is another thing I like about the game. Playing on hard with a 'Less than Obsidian PoE Forums Optimal Build' is easily doable and still enjoyable.

[Boeroer]

can still be fun (more fun) to play non optimal, but am thinking one does a disservice to self if they ain't at least aware o' the class limitations.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I think we can agree on that.

[Boeroer]

What is optimal anyways? For me it's a good build if you have fun playing it. And I really like to put a twist on a build which is fun but doesn't gimp it too hard.