Retaliate Barbarian still viable in 3.2?

[swordofthesith]

Yo PoE Meta Gurus!

 

Is the Fire Godlike Retaliate Barbarian still viable in 3.2?

 

- Sith

[KDubya]

The 1.0 bugged Barbarian with carnage and one stands alone has been patched such that it is not god mode anymore.

 

Retaliation now has to roll to hit and has been reduced in damage. This definitely reduces the power and usefulness of retaliate.

 

The new Barbarian power with the raw damage retaliate is pretty nice.

 

Personally I'd build a Barbarian more for mass stun or a dps with a bashing shield like Dragon Maw. I've never been a fan of the godlikes.

[Boeroer]

It's not as powerful any more. But it is still viable. I just wouldn't count on retaliation as my main damage source. See it as a bonus to your weapon damage.

The main reason it's not as powerful as it used to be is that it doesn't work with carnage any more. Neither Battle Forged nor item retaliation. So you don't need a barbarian to make retaliation work. But as KDubya said: the new barbaric retaliation ability is nice and stacks with the other ones.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Boeroer

[swordofthesith]

Thank you for the feedback KDubya and Boeroer! I am returning to the game on a normal play through with the following setup:

 

Fire Godlike

Barbarian

Level: 3

 

Mig: 18

Con: 3

Dex: 18

Per: 18

Int: 18

Res: 3

 

Talents:

 

Accurate Carnage 

 

 

I am hoping to setup this character as an extremely fast off tank DPS with the ability to fend off adds through retaliate. Is the above stat spread viable? Would talents and items should I consider downstream?

 

- Sith 

Edited April 2, 2016 by swordofthesith

[MaxQuest]

3 CON and 3 RES for a barbarian going for retaliation route, is way too low.

You either have high endurance and let enemies hit you and get retaliated; or go for a lower con, but keep the enemies cc'ed (stunned, prone, paralyzed).

Edited April 2, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

If you dual wield you don't need that much DEX. And with 3 RES you will get hit/crit a lot.

With 3 CON you will go down very quickly. I wouldn't do that. In fact with a Fire Godlike I would try to raise CON as high as possible. Because when you drop below 50% endurance and Battle Forged gets activated you want to have a lot of endurance left (in plain numbers). And 50% of 400 is more than 50% of 200, right?

Because you plan to get hit a lot you will also go down more often than others. You can use Vengeful Defeat as an additional form of retaliation. With a chanter, priest of Paladin in the party (or all of those) you will have tons of revivals. So if your barb falls under 50% endurance and starts to retaliate with fire, he will likely go down after some time and retaliate with Vengeful Defeat. This is very powerful if you use it with dual sabres. Also, with dual sabres, Barbaric Blow is good. Add Heart of Fury for the really hard mobs (like bounties).
Because you want to go under 50% endurance, you might also want to take Blooded. And One Stands Alone. Those add nice damage to your sabres - if you're surrounded and under 50% endurance. Also take Vulnerable Attack - it's good for your carnage.

So if you go down, you will have a +40% damage modifier most of the time and do a big AoE Full Attack with increased crit chance. Most "swarmers" don't survive this or will at least get stopped. Then revive and do again. There's also a pair of rings that is quite funny with this: You can swap 100 endurance once per rest without losing health. So if you want to trigger Vengeful Defeat on your barb - use the ring so he loses 100 edurance and gives it so somebody else. Then revive.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Boeroer

[swordofthesith]

If you dual wield you don't need that much DEX. And with 3 RES you will get hit/crit a lot.

With 3 CON you will go down very quickly. I wouldn't do that. In fact with a Fire Godlike I would try to raise CON as high as possible. Because when you drop below 50% endurance and Battle Forged gets activated you want to have a lot of endurance left (in plain numbers). And 50% of 400 is more than 50% of 200, right?

Because you plan to get hit a lot you will also go down more often than others. You can use Vengeful Defeat as an additional form of retaliation. With a chanter, priest of Paladin in the party (or all of those) you will have tons of revivals. So if your barb falls under 50% endurance and starts to retaliate with fire, he will likely go down after some time and retaliate with Vengeful Defeat. This is very powerful if you use it with dual sabres. Also, with dual sabres, Barbaric Blow is good. Add Heart of Fury for the really hard mobs (like bounties).

Because you want to go under 50% endurance, you might also want to take Blooded. And One Stands Alone. Those add nice damage to your sabres - if you're surrounded and under 50% endurance. Also take Vulnerable Attack - it's good for your carnage.

So if you go down, you will have a +40% damage modifier most of the time and do a big AoE Full Attack with increased crit chance. Most "swarmers" don't survive this or will at least get stopped. Then revive and do again. There's also a pair of rings that is quite funny with this: You can swap 100 endurance once per rest without losing health. So if you want to trigger Vengeful Defeat on your barb - use the ring so he loses 100 edurance and gives it so somebody else. Then revive.

 

 

Thanks for your insights Boeroer! So, let's say I'm just stubborn as a mule with my stat setup. Anyway I can mitigate my Con and Res with buffs from my party or with equipment? 

 

How would retaliate work with a two handed weapon setup? 

[DreamWayfarer]

Thanks for your insights Boeroer! So, let's say I'm just stubborn as a mule with my stat setup. Anyway I can mitigate my Con and Res with buffs from my party or with equipment?

The greatest problem is that you are extremely unlikely to reach high enough Deflection to never be hit or grazed, no matter how much you buff yourself, and with 3 CON grazes are a very serious threat to your life, specially if you get focused, and you will get focused if you deal high damage. And unless you have some crazy healing, you will dies before Retaliation proves itself worth it.

 

Plus, if you don't get attacked you won't retaliate, so what is the point?

[KDubya]

I'll chime in on the overly challenging stat spread that you have chosen

 

I'd go something more like:

Might 15 - more damage and healing

Con 13 - you have the biggest base end and health so I like to magnify my strengths

Dex 10 - you are going for zero recovery so you can save here

Per 15 - base accuracy is not the best so help is appreciated. I'd lower if I was going dual flails to make use of the graze>hit or raise if I wanted interrupts.

Int 15 - easy to get +4-6 from food and one item

Res 10 - mainly to not have a malus to concentration

 

If you are going with reach weapons and wearing a dress, and hide behind the front line a 3 con 3 res glass cannon might be ok. If you plan on being in melee I'd look to be a lot sturdier.

 

The AI likes to attack the weakest or the closest, on the frontline you'd be both. It would make maximum use of Vengeful Defeat, with a second chance item and a Paladin with rez you could use it three times per fight. You'd end up with a lot of injuries.

[Blunderboss]

On a melee char that is not for soloing you can save some points from Con and Res imo and replace them with use of consumables and buffs , you can always have a pearlwood food buff thats +2 Con , Trails bonus ( +3 CoN +2 Atlethics ) in Caed Nua is obviously the best one unless u need some mechanics , you can put +2 con on some mid game armors , missing concentration from resolve can be replaced by spirit shield potion or u can have priest cast a spell , or if you are lucky with stronghold adventures u can get gloves that has spell holding holy meditation , enemies pick targets depending on your DR anyway

You can easiliy add +7 CoN and all it takes is one buff to fix low resolve

Edited April 3, 2016 by Blunderboss

[KDubya]

On a melee char that is not for soloing you can save some points from Con and Res imo and replace them with use of consumables and buffs , you can always have a pearlwood food buff thats +2 Con , Trails bonus ( +3 CoN +2 Atlethics ) in Caed Nua is obviously the best one unless u need some mechanics , you can put +2 con on some mid game armors , missing concentration from resolve can be replaced by spirit shield potion or u can have priest cast a spell , or if you are lucky with stronghold adventures u can get gloves that has spell holding holy meditation , enemies pick targets depending on your DR anyway

You can easiliy add +7 CoN and all it takes is one buff to fix low resolve

 

There is a huge difference on a Barbarian with a tanked constitution.

 

At 15th level, 3 con guy has 177 endurance and 1061 health. Buffed by +7 you get 282 endurance and 1623 health. A balanced stat  spread with a 13 con gets 313 end, 1877 health unbuffed and with the same +7 gets 418 end and 2448 health. At low levels your squishy Barbarian will get dropped all the time. Now if you are making him a pike user and keep him in the back you'd have a better chance but that is really different than an in your face melee guy.

 

I'd rather have my Barbarian stay vertical and skip Vengeful Defeat and all the other need to be half dead type of abilities.

[Boeroer]

I'm just developing a Vengeful Defeat build (with an appropriate backstory to explain why he kisses the groud all the time) - and I can only say it's so much fun. He surely needs a priest/paladin/chanter or scroll user to be effective, but the combination of "Barring Death's Door" and 1 health is so much fun. He gets up aaand down... and up aaand down again. He just can't die! And every time he goes down he nukes his surroundings like crazy. You don't need DEX or CON or RES at all. I dumped RES and CON, maxed MIG, PER and INT and put the rest in DEX. Even works when he's totally disabled with prone/stun/petrified and so on. It's like you boosted your revival-abiltity with a nice AoE damage talent or something. And the best part is: the monsters only want to hit him and him alone. He's like living bait which shouts "Hit me!" - and they do!

I think I will post a class build tomorrow if I find the time to write it all down.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Boeroer

[swordofthesith]

I'm just developing a Vengeful Defeat build (with an appropriate backstory to explain why he kisses the groud all the time) - and I can only say it's so much fun. He surely needs a priest/paladin/chanter or scroll user to be effective, but the combination of "Barring Death's Door" and 1 health is so much fun. He gets up aaand down... and up aaand down again. He just can't die! And every time he goes down he nukes his surroundings like crazy. You don't need DEX or CON or RES at all. I dumped RES and CON, maxed MIG, PER and INT and put the rest in DEX. Even works when he's totally disabled with prone/stun/petrified and so on. It's like you boosted your revival-abiltity with a nice AoE damage talent or something. And the best part is: the monsters only want to hit him and him alone. He's like living bait which shouts "Hit me!" - and they do!

 

I think I will post a class build tomorrow if I find the time to write it all down.

 

That would be awesome! Would love to see your build Boeroer!

 

- Sith

[Reent]

ROFL!

I thought about such a build exactly once - until i thought about his health - never thought about Barring Death Door :D

 

 

"how many times did you fall this playthrough, mage?" "27 times, you, barb?" "270 times!" "how many kills, mage?" "270, you, barb?" "900!"

 

I can so imagine how it would be:

the party minus the barb:

"Damn, our Barb is surrounded"

Barb to the team:

"Dont worry guys, i have the enemy surrounded!"

 

Thats what you get if you make a barb intelligent, he now knows how mathematicians think...

[MaxQuest]

I'm just developing a Vengeful Defeat build (with an appropriate backstory to explain why he kisses the groud all the time)

I think I will post a class build tomorrow if I find the time to write it all down.

That sounds hilarious. A build that might make even Wound Binding useful

 

Although it's probably best played with disabled knockout injuries...

 

P.S. On a mildly related note: guys, what is the interaction between carnage and Minor Threat/Coordinated Attacks? Do the bonuses apply only against main target, or everyone hit by carnage too?

Edited April 4, 2016 by MaxQuest

[swordofthesith]

Following from suggestions on this thread, here's my revised plan for my Barbarian main. The idea would be to provide melee DPS to the tanks in the party and avoid engagement as much as possible. This character is not built for taking damage, instead it dishes heaps of it out through Carnage, Death's Usher, Bloody Slaughter, Blood Lust and Blood Thirst.

 

 

Role: Off Tank DPS

 

Race: Death Godlike

 

Death's Usher x 1.2 damage against enemies with low Endurance

 

Barbarian

 

Level: 15

 

Mig: 18

Con: 3

Dex: 18

Per: 18

Int: 18

Res: 3

 

Abilities:

 

Level 1 - Frenzy - A

Level 2 - Accurate Carnage - T

Level 3 - Wild Sprint - A

Level 4 - Bloody Slaughter - T

Level 5 - Blood Lust - A

Level 6 - Savage Attack - T

Level 7 - Blood Thirst - A

Level 8 - Two Weapon Style - T

Level 9 - Barbaric Shout - A

Level 10 - Greater Frenzy - T

Level 11 - Heart of Fury

Level 12 - Weapon Focus Ruffian - T

Level 13 - Eye of the Storm

Level 14 - Powerful Sprint

Level 15 - Echoing Shout

 

Equipment:

 

The Flames of Fair Rhîan

The Unlabored Blade [WM2]

Gwisk Glas

Pensiavi mes Rèi

Gwyn's Band of Union

Bracers of All-Consuming Rage

Finreah's Grace

 

 

Edited April 4, 2016 by swordofthesith