Stealth glitching? or just underwhelming / what determines if i'm seen?

[deveroth]

hey guys. i'm using a rogue as my main (second playthrough) and have just hit lvl 12, and i'm currently tackling WM2 before unlocking twin elms. 

so far i have 12 points in stealth, and a pistol that has +2 stealth when equipped. my problem is i can never seem to get close enough to pull off a backstab attack, either in melee or with the pistol. i used to be able to do it reliably; this was likely with the vanilla game's content though. somewhere i guess the expansion enemies got much more perceptive. either that or it's buggin out somehow. i think it's pretty ridiculous though that now i can't get a backstab off AT ALL, against any enemies. it's not like i'm rolling in ability points to drop into stealth either; having 12 points in it is already a LOT, and i suspect i'll finish the game with only 14-16. 

i'm pretty sure at some point earlier in the game i was noticing some enemies wouldn't spot me immediately where others might; there was some variance to enemies' perceptiveness. now, whether its a tentacle or a spider or kith, they ALWAYS see me. what is this based on? their perception stat? something else? 

 

how high must my stealth stat be in order to reliably land backstabs? 12 + 2 surely seemed like enough to me, but i guess not.

[deveroth]

bumped for fast moving board.

someone's gotta know.

[MaxQuest]

my problem is i can never seem to get close enough to pull off a backstab attack, either in melee or with the pistol

Same.

On next playthrough I will probably leave stealth at zero for everyone.

And for the "Heart of the White Marsh" quest, will just take a temp member. (current run was started on 2.0, and iirc stealth detection was working for those guards)

Edited March 21, 2016 by MaxQuest

[deveroth]

77,000 backers...who knows how many thousand on the forums...

and no one knows how stealth actually works.

[MaxQuest]

^ This game has many strong points, but unfortunately documentation ain't one.

 

I remember testing it in 2.0 and it was working one way (and it looked that it did like intended) Although I could explore all location with ranger's pet and no one would aggro if the ranger himself was too far away.

I remember re-checking stealth later into the game (just after 3.0 has happened) and iirc sometimes it worked, while sometimes there was zero difference.

The thing is, that with current value of lore, survival and athletics there is little motivation to run tests for stealth, which would be accurate and comprehensive enough for a bug report.

Edited March 21, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Blunderboss]

Is stealth even worth it on Rogue the sole class that should benefit from it ? If you cant backstab reliably with 12 stealth...

Edited March 21, 2016 by Blunderboss

[arkanoide]

Hmmmm no idea guys, i played rogue couple of days back and it works fine(latest patch), my stealth was around lvl6, 8 total with the sneaking boots(+2 to stealth), and i literally needed to touch some of the enemies for them to spot me. Sneaked past the monsters in raedriks hold, below where the sewer entrance is, and as long as i didnt touch them i got through. I think different enemies have different "vision", seems like NPCs, and human enemies spot you quicker then other stuff.

[Dorftek]

I think I had this same issue once I got to WM. Rogue is my favourite class and stealth is very important to hide and position urself while the enemies pick other targets. I found the best solution for this was to stack speed on my Rogue, Äru Bekr or Boots of speed if u aren't using shod in faith, sugar and even the fast runner talent was worth it honestly. With enough speed u can stealth around to ur enemies backline quick enough to not get spotted on the way AND land backstabs if u use it.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Dorftek

[Messier-31]

I understand you, mate. You are using rogue the same way he was intended for Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale. Hide in shadows, sneak up to the enemy, slice and dice with your weapon. I am not 100% sure, but I would say that rogue in Pillars of Eternity was created in a different fashion, so it is harder to actually pull it off. The main differences are that rogues have their own unique abilities (like every other class, duh) so you can give a lot of damage to someone and escape from harms way to another target. You know, a type of a character that is flexible on the battlefield, quick, makes a lot of damage but also isn't meant for tanking so he has to run between targets to be most effective.

 

Sneaking is probably mostly usefull in avoiding combat and some scripted interactions... so someone prove me wrong, if I'm not perceiving this correctly.

[Boeroer]

If you use Boots of Speed it's much easier to pull off Backstabs. Just make sure to start encounter with another character and keep being stealthed. When battle officially starts, you will be able to sneak much faster.

 

Sneak doesn't work like "OK I have 12 Stealth, so people won't see me". Actually, they will always start to notice you no matter how high the stealth skill is. What the skill does for you is it slows down the time foes need to detect you (how fast the yellow/red circles fill up). So fast movement does wonders.

 

But how you report it it seems like it's bugged at the moment. It was no problem to pull off Backstabs with 8 stealth in 2.0+ games.

[Kaylon]

For me stealth is good just to remain undetected while stealing. All high level monsters detect you instantly once you come close enough which means you can count only on invisibility for backstabs - totally not worth it.

[Nefarious7]

I found stealth and backstabbing to be a waste. Look up the prince of Persia build for rogue for a better focus. Duel wielding sabres and focusing on crits still feels very rogue like. So far, I've had a death blow critical for 390 damage

[Nefarious7]

Also the core of the rogue is sneak attack damage based on afflictions, not backstabbing from stealth

[deveroth]

jeeeez guys. I appreciate the responses but not a single one of you actually answered the question. instead we got the age old "Well, actually, rogues are better at sneak attaching than backstabbing!" response. I KNOW. that wasn't my question.

I want backstab to work with my playstyle, like it has in the past. I don't want to change my style.

furthermore I'm not asking whether or not YOU think it's worth it; I do, so I'm asking how it works. I thought it was a simple question but really, no one seems to know the answer.

I'm not trying to be a ****, but mention backstabbing on these boards and you get a lecture on sneak attacking instead of an actual answer. weird.

 

does anyone know how high the stealth stat needs to be in order to reliably sneak up on and backstab enemies in WM2? and what determines how fast an enemy sees you? its perception stat?

[divx]

jeeeez guys. I appreciate the responses but not a single one of you actually answered the question. instead we got the age old "Well, actually, rogues are better at sneak attaching than backstabbing!" response. I KNOW. that wasn't my question.

I want backstab to work with my playstyle, like it has in the past. I don't want to change my style.

furthermore I'm not asking whether or not YOU think it's worth it; I do, so I'm asking how it works. I thought it was a simple question but really, no one seems to know the answer.

I'm not trying to be a ****, but mention backstabbing on these boards and you get a lecture on sneak attacking instead of an actual answer. weird.

 

does anyone know how high the stealth stat needs to be in order to reliably sneak up on and backstab enemies in WM2? and what determines how fast an enemy sees you? its perception stat?

Boeroer did answer the question.  Another potential problem with a backstab build is that the Watcher always does the talking in the game which automatically pulls you out of stealth and a lot of the tough fights start with dialogue.

[deveroth]

[Boeroer]

So, the conclusion is, that stealth + Backstab ist not the most overpowered combination. It works with lower-level mobs most of the time. For all other foes you will have to rely on invisibility. You can get that from the Cloak of the Master Mystic (2/encounter), Nightshroud (1/rest), Shadowing Beyond (2/rest) and Feign Death (uhm... don't know atm).

 

Actually, if you combine invisibility with Backstab, Deathblows and Finishing Blow (including Devastating Blow & Killer's Work) things get pretty nasty. You can do it 3 times per rest and with a gunshot you will likely kill every foe in the game instantly if he has lost half of his endurance (if you don't miss or graze). But it's not for every-encounter-use.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Boeroer

[Dorftek]

So, the conclusion is, that stealth + Backstab ist not the most overpowered combination. It works with lower-level mobs most of the time. For all other foes you will have to rely on invisibility. You can get that from the Cloak of the Master Mystic (2/encounter), Nightshroud (1/rest), Shadowing Beyond (2/rest) and Feign Death (uhm... don't know atm).

 

Actually, if you combine invisibility with Backstab, Deathblows and Finishing Blow (including Devastating Blow & Killer's Work) things get pretty nasty. You can do it 3 times per rest and with a gunshot you will likely kill every foe in the game instantly if he has lost half of his endurance (if you don't miss or graze). But it's not for every-encounter-use.

There is a cloak with 2/encounter invisibility or was that a typo? How do I get this cloak?

[divx]

You get it from one of the bounties in WM1.  Also it only procs invisibility when you're hit or crit. 

[sacamano]

Has anyone tried bumping stealth up ridiculously high with IEMod and testing? I'm curious.

[Boeroer]

You get it from one of the bounties in WM1.  Also it only procs invisibility when you're hit or crit. 

It only procs if you receive a crit. But that happens all the time if you play a melee rogue who's not wearing a shield. Get a crit -> *poof* you're invisible -> switch to your arquebus -> *poof* he's dead. Two times per encounter - it's great.  

[Boeroer]

Has anyone tried bumping stealth up ridiculously high with IEMod and testing? I'm curious.

Why IE mod? Can't you do that with the regular console?

[sacamano]

 

Has anyone tried bumping stealth up ridiculously high with IEMod and testing? I'm curious.

Why IE mod? Can't you do that with the regular console?

 

doh. Yes, regular console

[Boeroer]

Hehe. If I have time to play today I will try.

[Nefarious7]

By all means, go ahead and force the use of backstabbing by using multiple item slots for special skills.