Class balance.

[Elric Galad]

I don't know...

 

They seem to care... remember the paladin patch... the 2.0 ranger...

 

I believe they did a pretty much good job till now. Even in PotD. I'm playing both rogue and barbarian in PotD right now and they do their job quite efficiently.

 

 

Class balance in a party game without PvP isn't meant to be as strict as in MOMRPG. What is needed is that each class should be the best at filling its role in a party, and this role shouldn't be too specific.

[MaxQuest]

I believe they did a pretty much good job till now. Even in PotD. I'm playing both rogue and barbarian in PotD right now and they do their job quite efficiently.

I haven't played with these classes yet. Did they feel being close to mvp during the dragon fights? 

Edited March 21, 2016 by MaxQuest

[kvaak]

 

I believe they did a pretty much good job till now. Even in PotD. I'm playing both rogue and barbarian in PotD right now and they do their job quite efficiently.

I haven't played with these classes yet. Did they feel being close to mvp during the dragon fights? 

 

 

Considering dragons are a damage race as you can only soak so many breaths, carnage's AoE scales with target size (which means your barbarian with Tall Grass can target the dragon and still crit-prone everything around it) and rogues get basically the highest single target DPS + (a ton of full attack CC) in the game I'd say yes.

Edited March 21, 2016 by kvaak

[Elric Galad]

 

 

I think all classes are pretty much balanced and suits their role.

 

Barbarians and Rogues could get just a little more love because :

 

- Rogue DPS is currently a bit under Ranger's DPS shadow. Rogue should do more DPS with a relevent margin (as pet brings other utility). I don't think the current margin is that relevent.

 

- Barbarian is a bit a 1 trick carnage poney.

 

- Many abilities of rogues and barbarians are not that good.

 

 

But it is not that bad, and even classes mentioned above are ok with the right build and equipment.

 

Not all classes are strictly equal but all can fulfill their own purpose.

Please, what the hell kinda post is that.

 

I mean, really, "many abilities [...] are not that good." , that's your whole argument here ?

 

Perhaps you could detail which abilities and how they are not good ?

 

Every class has abilities that "are not good" to be honest.

 

 

 

While I agree rogues could use more love because they're super squishy for very questionable DPS relative to other classes, you really need to work on your argument here o_O

You're right. I admit I've relied on what I said on previous threads, in particular, The Great Rogue Polishing Thread that I published some times ago.

 

I'm pretty happy that what I said in the rogue topic was (usually) approved by viewers. I'll try to group my views in a new thread soon, as my opinions about barbarians and rogues seem to be (mostly) shared.

 

 

OK, so I've created a new thread with more precise statements about Rogues and Barbarians.

This is the logical follow-up of this thread. Except, well, it's my views 

 

I hope it could be a way to cause a final balance patch (not strictly necessary but nice) !

[Zeraili]

than regarding dmg what would be best dps and moste effective classes when played with like small (up to 4) party? Do non magic classess even come close to dmg that can be done by wizards or druids? And how is situation of melee builds are there some that can come close to for example ranger?  how easy is to keep alive them without for example priest?

[KDubya]

than regarding dmg what would be best dps and moste effective classes when played with like small (up to 4) party? Do non magic classess even come close to dmg that can be done by wizards or druids? And how is situation of melee builds are there some that can come close to for example ranger?  how easy is to keep alive them without for example priest?

 

 

If you are doing a four man PotD melee team here is what I'd want:

 

1.) MC - Juggernaut Monk - heavy armor, durable damage dealer

2.) Pallagrina - with the DR boosting aura for the extra hit>graze, heals and reinforcing exhortation, maybe reviving exhortation as well. weapon and shield (outworn buckler for the team buff)

3.) Kana - with the +25% damage lash weaved in with the fear debuff and the Dragon thrash but try and keep the lash up at all times, cross class druid debuff, cross class paladin accuracy aura, AoE endurance regen. Weapon and shield

4.) Devil of Caroc - need someone with 13 or higher mechanics. weapon and shield - We Toki or Sabre with the Balgrdr shield that casts Tattered Veil on Crit

 

Keep within each other's auras, double up on foes to get the flanking.  Everyone is durable and in heavy armor with three with shields. Take lore and use scrolls as needed. Make use of all of the weapons that have spells per rest and cycle through them.

 

Replace Devil with an MC Rogue (I'd go for tanky shield user, squishy will just get killed too quickly) OR whatever MC that can start with 2 skill levels in Mechanics (Chanter, Cipher, not sure who else gets)

 

A Tanky Cipher could work well (look at Boereor's Baclash bedlam) or another Paladin, Chanter, pretty much anything that can survive in melee. A Melee Ranger with a jacked pet could be a great fit. Eder or Zahua could fit in somewhere as well.

 

I'd avoid ranged specialists as the other three team mates will not be able to keep the mob off of you and you are missing the other two ranged heavy hitters that most people have so you won't be able to drop the enemy as fast as a full six man team.

[Blunderboss]

On my Current Playtrough , during Act 1 Bleak Walker Paladin with Dual Wield is MVP , i was thinking to start this character with 1h+shield , but that is not needed , i dont even have Lay on Hands because Athletics replaces it just fine , currently level 4 : FoD,Remember Rakhan Field , Zealous Aura , Intense Flames . Using Eders Armor Enchanted to Fine , i started with dual sabres but replaced them with Fine Sword and Flail from Eothas temple until i get to Defiance Bay , i take Survivals bonus to Damage Reduction whenever i can , also my Athletics skill can heal more endurance than i have , second chance helped me on the sole Knock Down i had on this Character and that was while it tanked 2 Skuldur Kings .

 

Anyway , im sure that my Rogue could dish out more damage on a squishy enemy , but no rogue can tank so much damage while Dual Wielding , and early in the game rogue ends up shooting from the back no matter what talents u took on him due to Bottle Neck being the superior tactic in Act 1 .

Also i feel like early game was nerfed too much its easier now overall due to Athletics , Survival and Decreased enemy numbers 

Edited March 23, 2016 by Blunderboss

[Zeraili]

I started recently game with cipher as main character. Didnt play him before and im just shocked how much dmg he can do. Is cipher best DPS oriented class at the moment? Im level six and he just destroys everything. Will it be such during whole game or are there classess that can match him with dmg? For example this mad Hornet rogue or DPS hunter or melee or blast mage? Is therr aby build that just can mąkę more than cipher or its just Perfect class good at everything?

Edited March 31, 2016 by Zeraili

[MaxQuest]

Is cipher best DPS oriented class at the moment? Im level six and he just destroys everything. Will it be such during whole game or are there classess that can match him with dmg? For example this mad Hornet rogue or DPS hunter or melee or blast mage? Is therr aby build that just can mąkę more than cipher or its just Perfect class good at everything?

I don't think a rogue or ranger will surpass a pure dps cipher. But a wizard with Bracers of Spiritual Power, Scion of Flame/Secret of Rime, has potential to achieve x2 dps of a cipher; provided he will be resting after each fight. (but before you ask, nope I don't think it's worth it)

Edited March 31, 2016 by MaxQuest

[theBalthazar]

In very endgame, Ranger become better than a cipher. (Pet max upgrade + stormcaller + double attack, eventually x2 if an ennemy is behind)

 

Rogue, I don't know, I think not.

Edited March 31, 2016 by theBalthazar

[Crucis]

In very endgame, Ranger become better than a cipher. (Pet max upgrade + stormcaller + double attack, eventually x2 if an enemy is behind)

 

Rogue, I don't know, I think not.

 

I've had Sagani in my party since I picked her up as early as possible.  And I've gotta say that her pet fox, Ittumak, is absolutely deadly when you use him like a rogue, and seek to create flanking opportunities or just have others in your party set up sneak attack afflictions for him.  I've got Ittumak upgraded with everything except "Faithful Companion", and damn, he's nasty.  And that doesn't even account for Sagani using Stormcaller.

 

Some would say that Persistence is a better bow (even better than Stormcaller) due to its ability to create wounds that can trigger Ittumak's Predator's Sense ability that adds some like +30% or +50% to his damage when the target is affected by a damage over time effect.  My problem with that is that the archer/pet combo becomes too focused on supporting the pet and limits the archer's ability to do damage against targets other than the one the pet is attacking.  That's why I prefer Stormcaller, plus the fact that SC is a piercing OR lightning damage weapon, which comes in handy quite often.  (And of course, the Returning Storm effect is quite nice too.)   Still, if one really likes to play their ranger and animal companion as a tightly knit team, I can definitely see the value of using Persistence to constantly keep a DoT effect going on the pet's targets.

[dunehunter]

That ranger's new double attack is just too good.

[Elric Galad]

Persistance is also top DPS of all bows, it's not a contradiction. Persistance vs Stormcaller is just overall DPS vs versatility (multiple damage types) and stun.

 

However, I believe that melee rogue DPS is unmatched. Mostly because melee damages are basically signficantly above ranged. Pet compensates somehow but a well built rogue (no recovery, max dexterity) is far more than pet damage.

 

Sum of pet and ranger damages is probably a bit lower than rogue's. That comparison requires all conditions to activate bonus damages to be activate (DoT, sneak), neglects secondary target damages, considers wolf pet, neglects how convenient ranged attacks are, etc... so it can be debated.

 

As a conclusion, I think ranger is currently a better class, but Rogue should still have the highest single target DPS by a small margin, and less reliably that what twinned arrows provide.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Elric Galad

[theBalthazar]

With the heart of the storm, I'm not sure now...

 

Stormcaller reduce RD by 6. On an other hand, he gain +20 % damage electric...

 

The wolf pet is slow for attack. I think the DPS is better with stormcaller in 3.02.

[Crucis]

Persistance is also top DPS of all bows, it's not a contradiction. Persistance vs Stormcaller is just overall DPS vs versatility (multiple damage types) and stun.

 

However, I believe that melee rogue DPS is unmatched. Mostly because melee damages are basically signficantly above ranged. Pet compensates somehow but a well built rogue (no recovery, max dexterity) is far more than pet damage.

 

Sum of pet and ranger damages is probably a bit lower than rogue's. That comparison requires all conditions to activate bonus damages to be activate (DoT, sneak), neglects secondary target damages, considers wolf pet, neglects how convenient ranged attacks are, etc... so it can be debated.

 

As a conclusion, I think ranger is currently a better class, but Rogue should still have the highest single target DPS by a small margin, and less reliably that what twinned arrows provide.

 

The thing is that I don't play the game with an eye towards DPS statistics.  I'm trying to build a well rounded party that's able to meet any challenge.  And possibly have a nice "bench" of reserves who I can call on if I run into something that my party seems unable to handle. 

 

I like having some ranged combatants, because they're great for dealing with enemy spellcasters who are hiding behind the lines.  The problem with trying to deal with those behind the lines spellcasters with melee characters is that unless you're using some ability that lets you evade engagements, it can be difficult to get TO those spellcasters (or enemy archers) without getting engaged by an enemy melee-er who tries to block you. 

 

I will say that Devil is giving me a rather different perspective on Rogues, due to her low DEX and having her body's "armor" being the functional equivalent (in terms of recovery speed) of breastplate.  Enchant her body as much as possible, throw in a Blunting Belt to further enhance her DR's, and give her as many DEFL enhancing talents as possible (the Deflecting Assault upgrade to Reckless Assault, Superior Deflection, and Weapon+Shield Style), not to mention a good DEFL enhancing ring, bracers, or cape, and a good shield and Devil can be one surprisingly nasty customer in melee.  I will say that the idea of a heavily armored rogue seems wrong to me.  But since I want to use Devil in this party, I've got to work with what she brings to the table.  And that means a heavily armored rogue.

[ottffsse]

Endgame it's not that a cipher can't out dps anyone like Ranger barb etc it's that you have abilities on cipher to buff the overall effectiveness of everyone like mindweb and reaping knives plus you generally want to time parasite as well for the longer battles. But after a few blunderbuss shots you have 160+ focus and can usually immediately follow up with 2x amp wave and that is usually enough to end most fights. That's a lot of damage. But by that time your other party members like Ranger barb and monk are pretty damn effective at what they do too and will deal a big percentage of the damage. (not so in mid game before lvl 11 and by then a dps cipher has a huge lead in total damage done already as long as you don't overrest for your wizard / druids).

[Boeroer]

Defensive Devil with Badgradr's Barricade, Godanthunyr and lots of Full Attack Abilities is just awesome. All those Thrusts of Tattered Veils flying around that work with Deathblows. That base damage is quite high - so a ToTTV plus deathlows becomes a Thrust of Sledgehammers.

 

However - this can't compete with a melee ranger who uses a wounding weapon (Tidefall or Drawn in Spring) who flanks with his wolf pet which is build for dps. Stunning Shots works in melee now - the damage and CC is just awesome and I think it surpasses most (if not any) melee dps rogue builds. Add Aspirant's Mark and Stalker's Link and you will crit all the time.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Boeroer

[Zeraili]

Than it looks like ranger can outdps everything in melee and mage as range caster in case when we rest all the time. In this melee ranger build most of dmg is done by pet and its not calculated for ranger?