The 'Sidian Tyranny thread

[DreamWayfarer]

Also, Tiranny being a fantasy game does not make any less dumb having elite soldier groups or amies filled with women. Humans in fantasy games and books have the same physical traits than us real humans,

That is not necessarily true. I've read books set in worlds where humans are not exactly identical to humans from Earth, even if very similar. Who is to say it isn't the case in Tyranny's setting?

[Revan91]

 

Also, Tiranny being a fantasy game does not make any less dumb having elite soldier groups or amies filled with women. Humans in fantasy games and books have the same physical traits than us real humans,

That is not necessarily true. I've read books set in worlds where humans are not exactly identical to humans from Earth, even if very similar. Who is to say it isn't the case in Tyranny's setting?

 

And in those books women are usually taller, larger and stronger? I don't think so. 

[Hurlshort]

How far do you want to take this "realistic" gender depiction?  Do women get a plus to charisma and endurance?  Maybe change dialogue options based on their menstrual cycle?

 

The vast majority of fantasy worlds rely on a very simple means of differentiating abilities.  Humans are jack of all trades, dwarves are hardy, elves are wise, and orcs are strong.  There is no reason to muddy the waters with your gender concerns.    

[kirottu]

Maybe change dialogue options based on their menstrual cycle?

Or change the font to dripping red. That would be so metal.

[Gromnir]

why is "realistic" an important consideration in this context?  men are stronger and more athletic... in reality.  in a fantasy game, the developers is already ignoring reality with great frequency.  has never been a fantasy crpg with realistic combat.  thank goodness.  realistic magic is kinda an oxymoron no? realistic economy? recovery from injury? reality and verisimilitude is always needing be flexible in a fantasy game. 

 

reality ain't fair to women.  women are, on average, weaker and slower than men.  Gromnir were top ten (barely) in the illinois state 100m track finals in high school. our time were good enough  for women's olympic gold. is not fair that women is less athletic, but nobody promised fair in real life.  but again, so what?  tyranny ain't reality.  tyranny is a fantasy game.  tell women that in the fantasy they need be weaker than men? why? have women start off with a statistical handicap compared to male counterparts? reality is never gonna be complete fair to women insofar as athletic ability is concerned, but tyranny is a game.  

 

oh, and some games has given women a statistical advantage to endurance/constitution/fatigue as a way to balance the inevitable strength/might handicap.  is always a fail.   one o' these days a crpg developer is gonna actual make constitution as valuable as strength, but we ain't seen it.  furthermore, the discussion itself complete ignores the actual problem: women don't wanna be weaker than men.  women got the fuzzy end o' the athletic lollipop in reality.  so why force 'em to choke on it in a game?

 

poe offers a nifty alternative.  the might attribute is not realistic... period.  developers admitted that it ain't realistic.  you want an explanation for why the skinny wizard gots a vast strength advantage over a man-at-arms who has been training with arms and armour?  in the poe universe, perhaps the strength o' one's soul is more determinative o' both physical and magical might than is physical mass and power.  dunno.  poe don't even pretend to brace reality in regards to a few o' the attributes.  didn't break the game by doing so.

 

regardless, the desire for verisimilitude regarding weaker human women strikes us as ridiculous and anachronistic.  the number o' male gamers who has their suspension o' disbelief destroyed by equal strong human women in a fantasy game has gotta be exceeding small.  even if it is a concern for a few male players, it can't be anything other than a minor quibble.  conversely, am knowing more than a few woman gamers who is more than a little irked by developers who force "reality" 'pon 'em in the form o' a strength handicap for playing their natural gender.  so, why handicap so many potential purchasers?  the cost v. benefit winner strikes us as obvious.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I knew someone was going to take that bait

 

It's certainly nice to be appreciated.

[Revan91]

How far do you want to take this "realistic" gender depiction?  Do women get a plus to charisma and endurance?  Maybe change dialogue options based on their menstrual cycle?

 

The vast majority of fantasy worlds rely on a very simple means of differentiating abilities.  Humans are jack of all trades, dwarves are hardy, elves are wise, and orcs are strong.  There is no reason to muddy the waters with your gender concerns.    

It's okay to have equal options for male and female at character creation. It's a game, and adding gender bonuses and penalties would be mostly a waste of devs' time (and people would probably complain that his/her character is penalised and it's not fair). That doesn't mean that, since you've simplified your games' systems, you should make the world completely incoherent though since the systems have very little to do with worldbuilding or narrative.

Having armies filled women is stupid. Even in fantasy they're still weaker than their males counterpart, they have other advantages but strenght is definetely not one of them. Some women could overcome their physical inferiority and become good warriors, and that's fine, but most men will remain more effective soldiers. 

There are plenty of other ways to make powerful female characters in fantasy, without disrupting the world's credibility. 

[Hurlshort]

Armies filled with woman have been a theme in fantasy going all the way back to Ancient Greece.  This isn't a new concept.  Your concerns with credibility and realism are woefully misplaced, and seem entirely based on subjective criteria.  

 

[DreamWayfarer]

Even in fantasy they're still weaker than their males counterpart

Again, do we know for sure that is the case in Tyranny's world?

[Zoraptor]

I know that when I'm battling goblins and dragons with my fireball throwing staff in one hand and a double headed axe in the other, while covering my muscular body with only a chain mail posing pouch that I'm deeply concerned with it being as realistic and true to life as possible when it comes to sexual dimorphism.

[HoonDing]

In a game called "Tyranny" equal opportunity is the last thing I expect.

[Rosbjerg]

I'm thinking Kyros likes him army.. Presentable..

[Revan91]

 

Even in fantasy they're still weaker than their males counterpart

Again, do we know for sure that is the case in Tyranny's world?

 

Is there even one game, movie or book where it is not such a case? Can you name some examples?

 

I know that when I'm battling goblins and dragons with my fireball throwing staff in one hand and a double headed axe in the other, while covering my muscular body with only a chain mail posing pouch that I'm deeply concerned with it being as realistic and true to life as possible when it comes to sexual dimorphism.

You're confusing realism with verisimilitude (or world consistency). If I make a world where there are dragons and monsters, it doesn't mean that I can also make people fly just because it's a fantasy.

[Vaeliorin]

 

How far do you want to take this "realistic" gender depiction?  Do women get a plus to charisma and endurance?  Maybe change dialogue options based on their menstrual cycle?

 

The vast majority of fantasy worlds rely on a very simple means of differentiating abilities.  Humans are jack of all trades, dwarves are hardy, elves are wise, and orcs are strong.  There is no reason to muddy the waters with your gender concerns.    

It's okay to have equal options for male and female at character creation. It's a game, and adding gender bonuses and penalties would be mostly a waste of devs' time (and people would probably complain that his/her character is penalised and it's not fair). That doesn't mean that, since you've simplified your games' systems, you should make the world completely incoherent though since the systems have very little to do with worldbuilding or narrative.

Having armies filled women is stupid. Even in fantasy they're still weaker than their males counterpart, they have other advantages but strenght is definetely not one of them. Some women could overcome their physical inferiority and become good warriors, and that's fine, but most men will remain more effective soldiers. 

There are plenty of other ways to make powerful female characters in fantasy, without disrupting the world's credibility. 

 

Having the game mechanics not reflect the lore and vice versa is one of the best ways I know of to make the game world unbelievable.

 

That said, I probably wouldn't have even noticed the preponderance of female characters were it not for the comment about it (which I read prior to reading the story.)

[DreamWayfarer]

 

 

 

Even in fantasy they're still weaker than their males counterpart

Again, do we know for sure that is the case in Tyranny's world?

Is there even one game, movie or book where it is not such a case? Can you name some examples?

If I can't, what difference does it make? Just because it didn't happen before doesn't mean it can't happen with Tyranny.

 

And as exemples, how about Avatar: The Last Airbender? Or a very big number of animes out there? Because outside of regular medieval fantasy there seem to be many universes where muscles are completely meaningless.

[Zoraptor]

 

 

I know that when I'm battling goblins and dragons with my fireball throwing staff in one hand and a double headed axe in the other, while covering my muscular body with only a chain mail posing pouch that I'm deeply concerned with it being as realistic and true to life as possible when it comes to sexual dimorphism.

You're confusing realism with verisimilitude (or world consistency). If I make a world where there are dragons and monsters, it doesn't mean that I can also make people fly just because it's a fantasy.

 

 

Sure you can. In a fantasy world you may be able to fly via a spell or by polymorphing into something that can fly. That doesn't break verisimilitude so long as they're the rules of that particular fantasy world just because we cannot polymorph or cast spells to fly here, commensurately, the lack of planes or helicopters in that world does not break verisimilitude because we have those options to fly here. All verisimilitude requires is a set of rules that are consistently applied/ remain consistent; there is no requirement to conform with reality unless you're doing proper Science Fiction instead of Fantasy. If those rules say that men and women have equal stats that doesn't break verisimilitude either just because men and women have different strengths here.

 

Also, it's $current_year and the game is being published by Paradox which means that whatever else happens it will be a politically correct game about, er, exploitation, murder, betrayal, torture etc which is likely to be the real problem, verisimilitude wise.

[Hurlshort]

 

 

Even in fantasy they're still weaker than their males counterpart

Again, do we know for sure that is the case in Tyranny's world?

 

Is there even one game, movie or book where it is not such a case? Can you name some examples?

 

 

Nothing about it in Middle Earth, D&D or even Hyboria.  As I already said, the whole Amazonian myth dates back to Greek Mythology.  

[Bartimaeus]

Nothing about it in Middle Earth, D&D or even Hyboria.  As I already said, the whole Amazonian myth dates back to Greek Mythology.  

 

Well, female fighting characters (either ones you fight as, with, or against) are certainly treated the same as male fighting characters in D&D - at least, I think so. Fighting characters are not the only type of characters in D&D, though, and on a wider overview, I don't think you could really consider that principle to stand up to any great degree...

Edited June 5, 2016 by Bartimaeus

[Infinitron]

I present this without comment: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/rpg-codex-interview-feargus-urquhart-at-digital-dragons-2016.108970/page-9#post-4569774

[Bartimaeus]

If I'm understanding this correctly...Obsidian used him in contract negotiations with Paradox like he was the/a project lead, but nobody ever told him that, and he was never really even allowed to act in that capacity (not that he necessarily wanted to - as he said, it wasn't his "baby", and it was insulting to the others for whom it was their "baby" to pretend like it was). Is that right?

Edited June 5, 2016 by Bartimaeus

[kirottu]

So this:

[rjshae]

 

Nothing about it in Middle Earth, D&D or even Hyboria.  As I already said, the whole Amazonian myth dates back to Greek Mythology.  

 

Well, female fighting characters (either ones you fight as, with, or against) are certainly treated the same as male fighting characters in D&D - at least, I think so. Fighting characters are not the only type of characters in D&D, though, and on a wider overview, I don't think you could really consider that principle to stand up to any great degree...

 

Yup. You're character is created, not randomly sampled, so she doesn't need to represent a typical member of society. You can play a Nikki Fuller-type character if you want.

[Hurlshort]

 

 

Nothing about it in Middle Earth, D&D or even Hyboria.  As I already said, the whole Amazonian myth dates back to Greek Mythology.  

 

Well, female fighting characters (either ones you fight as, with, or against) are certainly treated the same as male fighting characters in D&D - at least, I think so. Fighting characters are not the only type of characters in D&D, though, and on a wider overview, I don't think you could really consider that principle to stand up to any great degree...

 

Yup. You're character is created, not randomly sampled, so she doesn't need to represent a typical member of society. You can play a Nikki Fuller-type character if you want.

 

 

Revan is stating that in the typical fantasy universe, females are weaker than males.  I don't see any evidence of that in D&D, at least that I've seen.  

[HoonDing]

Amazons sure get owned in the Aeneid.

[Revan91]

 

 

 

Nothing about it in Middle Earth, D&D or even Hyboria.  As I already said, the whole Amazonian myth dates back to Greek Mythology.  

 

Well, female fighting characters (either ones you fight as, with, or against) are certainly treated the same as male fighting characters in D&D - at least, I think so. Fighting characters are not the only type of characters in D&D, though, and on a wider overview, I don't think you could really consider that principle to stand up to any great degree...

 

Yup. You're character is created, not randomly sampled, so she doesn't need to represent a typical member of society. You can play a Nikki Fuller-type character if you want.

 

 

Revan is stating that in the typical fantasy universe, females are weaker than males.  I don't see any evidence of that in D&D, at least that I've seen.  

 

I was thinking about games, movies or books, not p&p rulesets (by the way, the older D&D versions had inferior strenght cap for females - they removed them in the newer versions just to allow players to create every character they want, I guess -, and also I've not read stories based on D&D settings but I do think that most of the regular soldiers are men, as it is in games such as BG, IWD and NWN). For example, in The Wheel of Time women usually hold more power than men, but that is because they can use magic while men go mad after using saidin for a while (and so are forbidden to use it or hunted down). Regular soldiers are men, there are women that go to war with them but they are sorceresses. There's pretty much the same situation in The Witcher series (Triss, Yennefer, Philippa and the Lodge are arguably more powerful than Geralt, but their source of power is magic, not their combat prowess and the regular fighters/soldiers are men).

Then again, there are women who rise up to become good fighters in many fantasy stories (Eowin in LOTR, Brienne in ASOIAF, etc.) but they are not common and don't represent the average woman (who shares the pros and cons and the traits of real world's women).

Edited June 6, 2016 by Revan91