Blame Social Justice Warriors for Donald Trump

[Bartimaeus]

snip

Right...well, that kinda makes for a crappy forum atmosphere for those of us not particularly enamored by the idea of constantly mucking around in certain other people's...I don't even really know what to call it. How perpetually annoying and/or inflammatory does one have to be towards pretty much everybody else on here before the mods feel it's appropriate to step in? Judging by the fact that Volourn would appear to be able to get away with calling people Nazis in literally every single one of his posts if he so wishes to, well, I guess the answer is never! Boy, what a lovely public image that would make - everyone calling each other Nazis in every single post in every single thread over even the most minor disagreements. Yeah, I'm sure that would attract quality discussion - never mind new users.

 

Well, the nonsensical sentence structure aside, why is it only about companies? Like, I literally don't think I've ever seen any other anti-trolling rule ever be limited to companies. That's just silly. How often do people troll in that very specific manner? ...Probably not never, but certainly less in most other common ways of trolling!

Edited May 4, 2016 by Bartimaeus

[Malcador]

Kind of funny that you acting like **** is really not your fault. Though not that surprising I guess. Also have you formed your own little clique ?

 

Either learn to ignore stuff that irritates you or harden up.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Malcador

[213374U]

 

The thing about forum rules is that however you write them they're always up for interpretation, no matter how specific they're made. And really, if people learnt a bit of self control the 'issues' would fix themself, it's only sustained by people who habitually engage. Oby is far less annoying now that Monte and Wals aren't around so much, as they simply couldn't help arguing with him all the time- and no matter how ridiculous he was being.

 

Too much Serious Business that could be solved by a few seconds of self reflection and consideration.

Yeah, so basically, I can't participate in the political or otherwise serious discussions because these people are always in them and always domineering discussion and people are always replying to and shaping the discussion around their posts. Fun.

 

 

I'm not really following. What exactly prevents you from participating? When the poo-flinging festival starts, bystanders will usually not get involved. What you get is a few mini-conversations going on in parallel inside a given thread, simultaneously, against a background of playground scuffle sounds. Their posts won't get more attention than yours unless they are, well, more interesting. Quality something something Taylor Swift popularity something something. But that's a discussion for another thread.

 

It what bothers you is the bad snr and threads getting bloated with back-and-forths that go nowhere quick (both legit complaints), you can always add the usual suspects to the ignore list -- looks like you already have them (us?) identified anyway. It's not good for much but it will at least help with post clutter. You can also PM some mod and ask them to prune if there is yet hope of salvaging the thread; I've found they'll usually be happy to oblige.

 

If you take the bait, you have nobody to blame but yourself. And if you honestly believe someone is harassing you, the report function actually works. This I know for a fact.

 

When all's said and done I much prefer users exercising their discretion than moderators exercising their power.

Edited May 4, 2016 by 213374U

[Amentep]

Right...well, that kinda makes for a crappy forum atmosphere for those of us not particularly enamored by the idea of constantly mucking around in certain other people's...I don't even really know what to call it. How perpetually annoying and/or inflammatory does one have to be towards pretty much everybody else on here before the mods feel it's appropriate to step in? Judging by the fact that Volourn would appear to be able to get away with calling people Nazis in literally every single one of his posts if he so wishes to, well, I guess the answer is never! Boy, what a lovely public image that would make - everyone calling each other Nazis in every single post in every single thread over even the most minor disagreements. Yeah, I'm sure that would attract quality discussion - never mind new users.

 

Well, the nonsensical sentence structure aside, why is it only about companies? Like, I literally don't think I've ever seen any other anti-trolling rule ever be limited to companies. That's just silly. How often do people troll in that very specific manner? ...Probably not never, but certainly less in most other common ways of trolling!

I think trolling about Bioware and Bethesda (and Troika) was a LOT more common back when the forums started.  It might be time for a review of the forum rules - reviews never hurt.

 

So again, I come to - do you report these posts that you feel are out of bounds?  Or do you expect the mods to read every thread and intercede without being signaled?  Or do you just give as good as you get and figure if the rough-housing gets too violent a mod will jump in to referee?

 

Back when I was a mod on BIS - not that there is completely applicable to here - there was no way that the 4-5 people who were mods of the WWOT forum could keep up with all of the posts, reading each one and moderating each discussion.  Yes we read threads, but we also relied on the posters telling us where the problems were because we couldn't watch every thread or every "problem" poster.  And sometimes if no one complained the assumption was that people were happy with the bickering.  Or the mods couldn't come to a consensus that what was done warranted action.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Amentep

[Bartimaeus]

Kind of funny that you acting like **** is really not your fault. Though not that surprising I guess. Also have you formed your own little clique ?

 

Either learn to ignore stuff that irritates you or harden up.

I've provided an explanation, not an excuse - though the two probably look to be about the same same without deliberately making the distinction. I've said in reports I've made on other people's posts that I would be perfectly O.K. receiving my own warnings if it meant less of the crap that I, once in a blue moon, bother to report. Still holds.

[Malcador]

Heh, right.

[BruceVC]

 

 

The thing about forum rules is that however you write them they're always up for interpretation, no matter how specific they're made. And really, if people learnt a bit of self control the 'issues' would fix themself, it's only sustained by people who habitually engage. Oby is far less annoying now that Monte and Wals aren't around so much, as they simply couldn't help arguing with him all the time- and no matter how ridiculous he was being.

 

Too much Serious Business that could be solved by a few seconds of self reflection and consideration.

Yeah, so basically, I can't participate in the political or otherwise serious discussions because these people are always in them and always domineering discussion and people are always replying to and shaping the discussion around their posts. Fun.

 

 

I'm not really following. What exactly prevents you from participating? When the poo-flinging festival starts, bystanders will usually not get involved. What you get is a few mini-conversations going on in parallel inside a given thread, simultaneously, against a background of playground scuffle sounds. Their posts won't get more attention than yours unless they are, well, more interesting. Quality something something Taylor Swift popularity something something. But that's a discussion for another thread.

 

It what bothers you is the bad snr and threads getting bloated with back-and-forths that go nowhere quick (both legit complaints), you can always add the usual suspects to the ignore list -- looks like you already have them (us?) identified anyway. It's not good for much but it will at least help with post clutter. You can also PM some mod and ask them to prune if there is yet hope of salvaging the thread; I've found they'll usually be happy to oblige.

 

If you take the bait, you have nobody to blame but yourself. And if you honestly believe someone is harassing you, the report function actually works. This I know for a fact.

 

When all's said and done I much prefer users exercising their discretion than moderators exercising their power.

 

This is a very good post, I support the last line emphatically 

[Chilloutman]

wow, what is this, promoting censorship based on ones feelings in thread named 'Blame SJW for Donal Trump'? what an irony xD

[Amentep]

 

When all's said and done I much prefer users exercising their discretion than moderators exercising their power.

This is a very good post, I support the last line emphatically

 

My experience as a moderator is that there are some users who have no discretion.

[Tigranes]

What I've experienced over the last 5+ years of moderating here is that people can end up getting wildly different views of what exactly constitutes trolling, what kind of posting is the kind of poison that must be eradicated to ensure happy foruming, and where exactly we should draw the line .... and at the same time, they are, each one of them, absolutely certain that the line they have identified is surely the common sense one that everyone else (except that troll) will agree with. Hence they are mystified that we should be more cautious in enforcing their views. This has been the case with forumers whose behaviour we have otherwise found just fine, or with forumers who are themselves so angered by this they were tearing up the furniture.

 

Moderation is by nature a weird system; it is faintly ridiculous and it would be nice if we never needed it, but we do. But if we mods simply draw a thick line, never change it, and enforce it rigidly, those who agree with us will be happier, those who don't will be furious, because we have ruined the forum for them. Of course, the risk of a more loose and inclusive strategy like ours is that people can become sick of what they see as soft transgressions that never get weeded out. What is worth remembering, nevertheless, is that even with some of our more colourful celebrities over the years - let's say, lord of flies, or dear old Hades - people have had vastly different views about how they should or should not be moderated, and I, personally, try to somehow accommodate the widest possible range of views so that I'm not telling well-behaved long-time forumers to stuff it. (And that does mean taking complaints like Bart's seriously, as well as the counterarguments by, say, Amentep.)

 

As for the company trolling rule, maybe we should revisit the wording, but as Amentep says, there were periods when people just couldn't stop wishing that David Gaider would die in a fire, that some developer is fat and stupid and must be autistic, that Bethesda is the incarnation of a Satanic corporation and we should all pirate their games out of spite, and other such silly things. One would think that it's common sense that the official forums of a video game developer which frequently has professional relationships with such companies would be reluctant to host such vitriol, but hey, as I said about people's views...

[Malcador]

I say we make Amentep a mod again.

[Bartimaeus]

I'm not really following. What exactly prevents you from participating? When the poo-flinging festival starts, bystanders will usually not get involved. What you get is a few mini-conversations going on in parallel inside a given thread, simultaneously, against a background of playground scuffle sounds. Their posts won't get more attention than yours unless they are, well, more interesting. Quality something something Taylor Swift popularity something something. But that's a discussion for another thread.

 

It what bothers you is the bad snr and threads getting bloated with back-and-forths that go nowhere quick (both legit complaints), you can always add the usual suspects to the ignore list -- looks like you already have them (us?) identified anyway. It's not good for much but it will at least help with post clutter. You can also PM some mod and ask them to prune if there is yet hope of salvaging the thread; I've found they'll usually be happy to oblige.

 

If you take the bait, you have nobody to blame but yourself. And if you honestly believe someone is harassing you, the report function actually works. This I know for a fact.

 

When all's said and done I much prefer users exercising their discretion than moderators exercising their power.

Almost every time I make any post with anything of actual discussion value, I get a reply from Bruce. Sometimes I bother to click the little button that says "view this person's post", sometimes I don't - I try to never reply, regardless. What does happen, though - regardless of whether I view or reply to his posts - is that posts from him, and from a very, very few select others, are constantly changing the direction of the thread, changing what people are replying to. This might not be so terrible on an individual thread basis, but...I would like to go into a "serious discussion" thread once, just once, and not have Bruce's asinine thoughts bloating the thread and changing what everyone's talking about to be refuting the same terrible lines of thinking that he always uses and that they're always refuting. Oh my goodness, it gets so old seeing people rehash the same stupid discussions with him over and over across dozens of threads. That's what I hate: that these threads are basically shaped entirely around these people, over the same fundamental issues that have been fought over so many times before, with the same people even - even though they're about different subjects, subjects that might have been interesting...but no, not here at the Obsidian forums. And it's over literally years...

Edited May 4, 2016 by Bartimaeus

[Chilloutman]

 

I'm not really following. What exactly prevents you from participating? When the poo-flinging festival starts, bystanders will usually not get involved. What you get is a few mini-conversations going on in parallel inside a given thread, simultaneously, against a background of playground scuffle sounds. Their posts won't get more attention than yours unless they are, well, more interesting. Quality something something Taylor Swift popularity something something. But that's a discussion for another thread.

 

It what bothers you is the bad snr and threads getting bloated with back-and-forths that go nowhere quick (both legit complaints), you can always add the usual suspects to the ignore list -- looks like you already have them (us?) identified anyway. It's not good for much but it will at least help with post clutter. You can also PM some mod and ask them to prune if there is yet hope of salvaging the thread; I've found they'll usually be happy to oblige.

 

If you take the bait, you have nobody to blame but yourself. And if you honestly believe someone is harassing you, the report function actually works. This I know for a fact.

 

When all's said and done I much prefer users exercising their discretion than moderators exercising their power.

Almost every time I make any post with anything of actual discussion value, I get a reply from Bruce. Sometimes I bother to click the little button that says "view this person's post", sometimes I don't - I try to never reply, regardless. What does happen, though - regardless of whether I view or reply to his posts - is that posts from him, and from a very, very few select others, are constantly changing the direction of the thread, changing what people are replying to. This might not be so terrible on an individual thread basis, but...I would like to go into a "serious discussion" thread once, just once, and not have Bruce's asinine thoughts bloating the thread and changing what everyone's talking about to be refuting the same terrible lines of thinking that he uses and that they're always refuting. Oh my goodness, it gets so old seeing people rehash the same stupid discussions with him over and over across dozens of threads. That's what I hate: that these threads are basically shaped entirely around these people, over the same fundamental issues that have been fought over so many times before, with the same people, even - even though they're about different subjects, subjects that may have been interesting, but not here at the Obsidian forums. And it's over literally years...

 

So your lack of self-control and others desire to reply to posts you find 'derailing' is driving you crazy. I have Bruce in ignore list as well but I will fight to death to let him derail whatever he wish, there are still people who find debates with him valuable. Seems like you are upset that some people dont consider your posts relevant enough to continue discussion with you

[BruceVC]

 

I'm not really following. What exactly prevents you from participating? When the poo-flinging festival starts, bystanders will usually not get involved. What you get is a few mini-conversations going on in parallel inside a given thread, simultaneously, against a background of playground scuffle sounds. Their posts won't get more attention than yours unless they are, well, more interesting. Quality something something Taylor Swift popularity something something. But that's a discussion for another thread.

 

It what bothers you is the bad snr and threads getting bloated with back-and-forths that go nowhere quick (both legit complaints), you can always add the usual suspects to the ignore list -- looks like you already have them (us?) identified anyway. It's not good for much but it will at least help with post clutter. You can also PM some mod and ask them to prune if there is yet hope of salvaging the thread; I've found they'll usually be happy to oblige.

 

If you take the bait, you have nobody to blame but yourself. And if you honestly believe someone is harassing you, the report function actually works. This I know for a fact.

 

When all's said and done I much prefer users exercising their discretion than moderators exercising their power.

Almost every time I make any post with anything of actual discussion value, I get a reply from Bruce. Sometimes I bother to click the little button that says "view this person's post", sometimes I don't - I try to never reply, regardless. What does happen, though - regardless of whether I view or reply to his posts - is that posts from him, and from a very, very few select others, are constantly changing the direction of the thread, changing what people are replying to. This might not be so terrible on an individual thread basis, but...I would like to go into a "serious discussion" thread once, just once, and not have Bruce's asinine thoughts bloating the thread and changing what everyone's talking about to be refuting the same terrible lines of thinking that he always uses and that they're always refuting. Oh my goodness, it gets so old seeing people rehash the same stupid discussions with him over and over across dozens of threads. That's what I hate: that these threads are basically shaped entirely around these people, over the same fundamental issues that have been fought over so many times before, with the same people even - even though they're about different subjects, subjects that might have been interesting...but no, not here at the Obsidian forums. And it's over literally years...

 

Barti you can't seriously be blaming me for the perceived state of the forums ? That's  a complete exaggeration 

[Bartimaeus]

What I've experienced over the last 5+ years of moderating here is that people can end up getting wildly different views of what exactly constitutes trolling, what kind of posting is the kind of poison that must be eradicated to ensure happy foruming, and where exactly we should draw the line .... and at the same time, they are, each one of them, absolutely certain that the line they have identified is surely the common sense one that everyone else (except that troll) will agree with. Hence they are mystified that we should be more cautious in enforcing their views. This has been the case with forumers whose behaviour we have otherwise found just fine, or with forumers who are themselves so angered by this they were tearing up the furniture.

Yeah...I get that. Guess I'm getting to the point where I feel like one of these people wanting to rip up the furniture. I just...we have such a wide variety of different people with such radically different opinions here...I like to see what people have to say about all of these different subjects. I don't like people like Bruce coming in to every thread showing the same level of intellectual laziness and dishonesty that they always do, and then using the same lines of logic that people have just eviscerated a dozen times before to derail the topic, and then having to wait until the discussion gets back on track again just for it to happen again about something else. I don't know if he's a legit troll...but the widespread disruption he provides in nearly every thread he goes into is as bad as the very best troll, so it makes very little difference to me in regards to the truth of that.

 

Moderation is by nature a weird system; it is faintly ridiculous and it would be nice if we never needed it, but we do. But if we mods simply draw a thick line, never change it, and enforce it rigidly, those who agree with us will be happier, those who don't will be furious, because we have ruined the forum for them. Of course, the risk of a more loose and inclusive strategy like ours is that people can become sick of what they see as soft transgressions that never get weeded out. What is worth remembering, nevertheless, is that even with some of our more colourful celebrities over the years - let's say, lord of flies, or dear old Hades - people have had vastly different views about how they should or should not be moderated, and I, personally, try to somehow accommodate the widest possible range of views so that I'm not telling well-behaved long-time forumers to stuff it. (And that does mean taking complaints like Bart's seriously, as well as the counterarguments by, say, Amentep.)

 

As for the company trolling rule, maybe we should revisit the wording, but as Amentep says, there were periods when people just couldn't stop wishing that David Gaider would die in a fire, that some developer is fat and stupid and must be autistic, that Bethesda is the incarnation of a Satanic corporation and we should all pirate their games out of spite, and other such silly things. One would think that it's common sense that the official forums of a video game developer which frequently has professional relationships with such companies would be reluctant to host such vitriol, but hey, as I said about people's views...

Amentep almost always hits the nail on the head, so I can't really blame you.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Bartimaeus

[Chilloutman]

Yeah...I get that. Guess I'm getting to the point where I feel like one of these people wanting to rip up the furniture. I just...we have such a wide variety of different people with such radically different opinions here...I like to see what people have to say about all of these different subjects. I don't like people like Bruce coming in to every thread showing the same level of intellectual laziness and dishonesty that they always do, and then using the same lines of logic that people have just eviscerated a dozen times before to derail the topic, and then having to wait until the discussion gets back on track again just for it to happen again about something else. I don't know if he's a legit troll...but the widespread disruption he provides in nearly every thread he goes into is as bad as the very best troll, so it makes very little difference to me in regards to the truth of that.

Well, is called consistency - he is just consistantly irritating, at least you know what to expect xD

[213374U]

What does happen, though - regardless of whether I view or reply to his posts - is that posts from him, and from a very, very few select others, are constantly changing the direction of the thread, changing what people are replying to.

Perhaps. But if a significant portion of participants would rather rehash the same old topics and perspectives over and over and over than engage in -by your standards- productive discussions that lead somewhere... is it really <trollname>'s fault? I'm fairly certain that any one user's ability to shape or direct a thread is basically zero after the first post. It's a collective effort. Takes two to tango and all that.

 

Try to engage people that you consider capable of responding in kind, in a manner that you consider conducive to productive debate, see what happens. You will either get the sort of conversations you'd like... or come to despise humanity a bit more. Either way, I doubt strict(er) rules are a solution to this "problem".

 

This is my theory and I'm sticking with it.

 

http://phys.org/news/2011-11-poop-throwing-chimps-intelligence.html

[Malcador]

All this means is that Bruce has defeated one person

[Bartimaeus]

So your lack of self-control and others desire to reply to posts you find 'derailing' is driving you crazy. I have Bruce in ignore list as well but I will fight to death to let him derail whatever he wish, there are still people who find debates with him valuable. Seems like you are upset that some people dont consider your posts relevant enough to continue discussion with you

First part more or less right, second part wrong: don't give much of a hoot if people don't reply to me. If you actually read what I've written in most "serious discussion" threads over the past couple of years (I don't expect you to, hence why I'll just give you a summary), it's almost always been to refute some nonsense of Bruce's. I'm really generally more of a lurker on serious discussion threads than anything else... Perhaps a just tad ironically (actually very ironically, I'm sure), he's the one that's generally making me want to post in those kinds of threads - just for all the wrong reasons, it feels to me.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Bartimaeus

[Bartimaeus]

Perhaps. But if a significant portion of participants would rather rehash the same old topics and perspectives over and over and over than engage in -by your standards- productive discussions that lead somewhere... is it really <trollname>'s fault? I'm fairly certain that any one user's ability to shape or direct a thread is basically zero after the first post. It's a collective effort. Takes two to tango and all that.

 

Try to engage people that you consider capable of responding in kind, in a manner that you consider conducive to productive debate, see what happens. You will either get the sort of conversations you'd like... or come to despise humanity a bit more. Either way, I doubt strict(er) rules are a solution to this "problem".

 

This is my theory and I'm sticking with it.

 

http://phys.org/news/2011-11-poop-throwing-chimps-intelligence.html

Those are undeniably great points. Nevertheless, it has made for a completely miserable forum experience in regards to those kinds of threads over the past couple of years for some of us, which is probably why some of us complain so much about it*.

 

*Myself almost certainly the most, of course.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Bartimaeus

[Chilloutman]

 

So your lack of self-control and others desire to reply to posts you find 'derailing' is driving you crazy. I have Bruce in ignore list as well but I will fight to death to let him derail whatever he wish, there are still people who find debates with him valuable. Seems like you are upset that some people dont consider your posts relevant enough to continue discussion with you

First part more or less right, second part wrong: don't give much of a hoot if people don't reply to me. If you actually read what I've written in most "serious discussion" threads over the past couple of years (I don't expect you to, hence why I'll just give you a summary), it's almost always been to refute some nonsense of Bruce's. I'm really generally more of a lurker on serious discussion threads than anything else... Perhaps a just tad ironically (actually very ironically, I'm sure), he's the one that's generally making me want to post in those kinds of threads - just for all the wrong reasons, it feels to me.

 

Well, its a life. Best life lesson my father gave me: 'You will have do deal with stupid people everywhere you go, because world is full of them, so better get you use to it fast' (no offense to Bruce)

[Chilloutman]

Those are undeniably great points. Nevertheless, it has made for a completely miserable forum experience in regards to those kinds of threads over the past couple of years for some of us, which is probably why some of us complain so much about it.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Chilloutman

[Gfted1]

Ah, so this has nothing to do with the forum atmosphere and everything to do with Bartimaeus trying to bully BVC off the forum.

[Bartimaeus]

You're so good at summarizing what people are saying, Gfted.

 

...Actually, wait, that's not what I said at all. It's not like I'm going into every topic calling him a Nazi or something, now is it?

 

...Perhaps that would be a more effective strategy, though... No, I think Volourn's already tried that.

[Gfted1]

You just make multi-page whining threads and altered signature quotes because you are misunderstood?

 

I'm curious though, what do you do irl when you encounter someone that doesn't share your thought patterns? Do you follow them from location to location complaining? Do you picket outside their home or business saying you don't like them? How does Batimaeus make it through the day?