The supplies mechanic is bad

[Ymarsakar]

 

 

 

No, it doesn't. You can't conserve your health resource. You can't heal health. Once you take health damage, the one and only way to restore it is by resting.

 

It's kind of silly and ridiculous that everyone's just assuming that I'm some newbie who needs to get good. I play on PotD. I beat the game just fine.

 

 

Really, the one and only way to "restore it is by resting". For someone with a shallow knowledge of the game mechanics that he never looked up the old or new versions of wound binding talents, what makes you think you actually understand the game enough to lobby someone else to change/mod it?

 

Just because you beat someone at chess, doesn't mean you can design a better game nor even that you understand all of it.

[Gfted1]

I actually didn't say "wherever".  And when I said "whenever" it was tied to however much you wanted, by which I was saying that in those old IE games, you could rest 100 consecutive times in a row in the wilderness and the game would let you.  You could rest after every single tiny encounter, and the game would let you.

You can still do this in PoE, or not, your choice!

 

You'd never run out of food.  And because you could do this, any spellcaster could cast every spell he knew in every battle without any consequences.  Beyond that, when the game gets balanced for this model, you end up making the battles so difficult that players who prefer a more role-playing style of combat are increasingly forced to play this powergamey style just to have the firepower to defeat their enemies.

I have never played a game balanced around players resting after every battle. Can you give me an example?

[kvaak]

 

I have never played a game balanced around players resting after every battle. Can you give me an example?

 

Most roguelikes I've played (Nethack, DCSS, ADOM, ToME, Brogue, Sil) highly encourage this. They also have a hunger system which prevents you from camping/farming a safe spot by forcing you to explore for food.

 

Now that I think about it the only roguelike I've played that didn't have such a system is DoomRL. Which is why it's horribly broken.

 

As far as CRPGs go there's at least Neverwinter Nights for "rest whenever wherever with no penalties". At least the Infinity Engine games had random ambushes.

[Stoner]

I never had an issue with lacking supplies, but I have another one instead - small cap. Since I have, well, call it mental disorder, I like picking up everything I'm coming across, and since I play on higher difficulty, 2 is just painfully small. Find myself resting alot when I don't need to for not back tracking to this place.

 

In game mechanics scale it really doesn't offer any difficulty or challenge, that's just tedium to backtrack in locations when you have space for supplies just to pick them up. There were many great ideas by players to autamatically convert excess supplies to copper, send them in stash or remove it as loot, which is best IMO, because this will actually involve planning and supply conservation, I would even raise buy price for that.

 

I just don't understand, devs made good call with inventory and options for it, but completely neglected same issues they solved but with supplies...

[Tigranes]

Wouldn't the exact same thing happen if you had, say, 4? Unless the cap is infinite you're going to have to leave some behind or come back for them.

 

Converting excess supplies for copper is a good idea. Given how cheap they are it will be utterly irrelevant after the first couple hours, but why not.

[MunoValente]

Maybe instead of limiting camping supplies, they could have made them more rare and/or expensive not that that is a terribly realistic either, but might be a better balance.

[ojthesimpson]

the limited resources are a well thought out and well implemented system. I agree maybe there's a place or two we could find more camping supplies. 

anyone that's played a great game of table top RPG knows that those great adventures are the ones that resources are pressed. Where all your guys are down and u gotta figure out how to deal with situation creatively cause u cant blow ur last fireball. When you gotta drag a friend back to a priest you met earlier but there's a horde of orcs chasing u. Having to rely on a rouge with 4 hp left sneak attacking a bad guy or you're all %&$*ed. Thats great tabletop rpg.

it randomizes the game. it incentives creativity and makes trash mobs turn into a nail biting drama. In pillars I once had 3 characters down to nothing, no spells, dead fighter, limping back to where I could travel. I ran into 4 zombie things and it was a battle royal between a paladin / cipher and 4 trash mob zombies. I walked out of there with 5 endurance and 1 guy still standing. It was an epic fight. 

I guess I am just plain too lazy to run back to town all the time. I suggest you not go back to town and save those last 2 rests, See how u creatively sneak around, use traps. It's way more fun. I play it out no matter what and still have never once hit a wall in the game. I dont play on suicidal settings though. I like to role play at normal difficulty and enjoy the game. I just barely bumped up to the next difficulty after I got used to it. The hardest thing is managing the resources and it's what IMO makes the trash mobs have a point. 

Edited March 1, 2016 by ojthesimpson

[durbal]

PoE is pretty boring because there's never any real challenge. Every fight is more or less the same, resources are unlimited, and with endless respecs (why even make them cost gold?) there's never really any strategy, adventure,or even character identity.  It's just load area -> kill stuff -> load next area.  I've wanted actual limited camping supplies for some time now and Obsidian seems to be going in the opposite direction in terms of design and it makes me sad.

 

Edit: I can't believe there are actually people in this thread acting like camping supplies are limited.  The only limit is your patience for waiting to load a town then an interior before continuing to play the game.

Edited March 2, 2016 by durbal

[Osvir]

 

 

I have never played a game balanced around players resting after every battle. Can you give me an example?

 

Most roguelikes I've played (Nethack, DCSS, ADOM, ToME, Brogue, Sil) highly encourage this. They also have a hunger system which prevents you from camping/farming a safe spot by forcing you to explore for food.

 

Now that I think about it the only roguelike I've played that didn't have such a system is DoomRL. Which is why it's horribly broken.

 

As far as CRPGs go there's at least Neverwinter Nights for "rest whenever wherever with no penalties". At least the Infinity Engine games had random ambushes.

That sounds like a fantastic idea. Too bad food/hunger isn't all that important in Pillars of Eternity. But it sounds like this is the sort of mechanic/function that would work amazingly well with a Rest Mechanic seen in PoE and BG of old, and counter the accessible abuse that follows. "You need to eat, so you can't rest" limitations~

 

Heck, even limit one from returning to town if you haven't rested and/or eaten well enough, e.g. "You can not return to town at this time. You need to eat and sleep" 

 

This would require some better scavenging and loot mechanics though (Being able to find more food and camping supplies on every map, in the wilderness, chopping up a wooden table, finding tinder etc. etc. sacrificing a companion for cannibalism, those Xaurips looks delicious~ etc. etc. )

[ojthesimpson]

PoE is pretty boring because there's never any real challenge. Every fight is more or less the same, resources are unlimited, and with endless respecs (why even make them cost gold?) there's never really any strategy, adventure,or even character identity.  It's just load area -> kill stuff -> load next area.  I've wanted actual limited camping supplies for some time now and Obsidian seems to be going in the opposite direction in terms of design and it makes me sad.

 

Edit: I can't believe there are actually people in this thread acting like camping supplies are limited.  The only limit is your patience for waiting to load a town then an interior before continuing to play the game.

 

man sounds like the game just hasn't really sucked you in. I highly doubt you play on super hard settings. Why power game it and complain about it. Don't respect characters, I wasnt even aware of this option and i'd never use it. Load your party with companions you like regardless of classes. NEVER go back to town to restock. ROLE PLAY. Play as a character, that's what I do the game is perfect for that. Camping supplies seems like 2 or 4 is a barren wasteland when u dont go back into town during an adventure. I highly doubt after u break into a place u could leave for a week and come back. So I dont play that way. a person wouldnt just change stats and skill set over ... so i dont play that way. An easier quest option by selecting a dialogue contrary to my character.... I dont click it. 

play the game like a table top RPG and you'll have more fun.  

[demeisen]

Edit: I can't believe there are actually people in this thread acting like camping supplies are limited.

 

 

It's not that we think "camping supplies are limited" if you're willing to charge off back to an inn every other fight... it's that we don't consider that style of play much fun.  So why do it, if it's not fun?  The camp mechanic is clearly there to guide you into a rest-limited play style while not absolutely enforcing it, which would have had people screaming bloody murder.

 

Camps are limited in a RP sense, not in a pure mechanical sense.  Sure, you can keep running back for more camping supplies.  But that's not very much fun, is it?  You end up seriously OP for most fights that way, even on PoD difficulty.  So why do it?  I've found it more fun to start with the 2 camps, and try to get through a whole area on just those and any others I find along the way.  Then you get into these really fun scrapes where you're just trying to finish out the area with your tanks already beat to hell, and 90% of your spells and abilities already expended.  You end up scouting the next fight in stealth mode to work out whether you can take that group in your party's current battle-weary state, so eeking a little more mileage out of your last camp.  You end up paying attention to the environmental cues.  That pile of bones and blood might mean a nasty fight in the next room, so maybe this is a good place to rest up.

 

PoE comes alive when you don't minmax it within an inch of its life.  Everyone gets to play in their own way, but I've found it more fun to play the game, not play the system.

Edited March 2, 2016 by demeisen

[blinkicide]

Would have been pretty easy to make dungeons whose reward once they are started linked to how often you camp.   (E.g. kidnappers - find person dead or alive, ritual - get to heretics before they complete it, etc).  Even some macro passage of time events linked to progress:  e.g. mother gives birth to wicht baby (soulless), or baby has soul at 8-9 month mark.

[Crucis]

PoE is pretty boring because there's never any real challenge. Every fight is more or less the same, resources are unlimited, and with endless respecs (why even make them cost gold?) there's never really any strategy, adventure,or even character identity.  It's just load area -> kill stuff -> load next area.  I've wanted actual limited camping supplies for some time now and Obsidian seems to be going in the opposite direction in terms of design and it makes me sad.

 

Edit: I can't believe there are actually people in this thread acting like camping supplies are limited.  The only limit is your patience for waiting to load a town then an interior before continuing to play the game.

 

Camping supplies ARE limited.  There isn't an infinite supply of them.  But your ability to rest at inns is unlimited (in the case of those few inns where you're charged 0 gold for a cheap room) or mildly limited by your supply of gold to pay for a room.

 

I like the idea that you can only carry a limited amount of camping supplies.  But if one is truly willing to head back to an inn to rest up on a regular basis, you're only "limited" by your amount of gold and your patience.  I think about the only way that the game could truly, truly limit resting would be to put a time limit on the main quest.  That is, say that you have (for example) 90 days to stop the bad guy's plans.  Do as many of the side quests as you think you can manage in that period of time.  And rest as much as you think you can manage, but if you don't stop the bad guy's plans in that fixed period of time, you lose.

 

Of course, it's like that this would be HIGHLY unpopular because there are a lot of players who  truly enjoy being completionists, and playing every single quest.  I suppose that the devs could tweak the completion time to be high enough to do everything, so long as you were fairly efficient in your use of rests, i.e. not resting after every single friggin' battle.

 

 

 

However, I really don't think that this is nearly as big a deal as some of you make it out to be.  IMHO the people who are complaining the loudest are the powergamers who want to play their OP as heII minmaxed spell caster builds (and of course then complain that the game is too easy; don't forget that) and flush out their supply of spells every friggin' battle, and then rest after every friggin' battle.  Rinse and repeat as necessary.    IMO, that's not the way the game's meant to be played, and I have no problem with the devs structuring the game in such a way that effectively tells you so.

[Sannom]

I think the only way to truly limit rest-spamming would be to have consequences for resting too much. Like once you have a quest and you enter the area dedicated to it, you can only rest so many times before the quest automatically fails. 

[durbal]

 

PoE is pretty boring because there's never any real challenge. Every fight is more or less the same, resources are unlimited, and with endless respecs (why even make them cost gold?) there's never really any strategy, adventure,or even character identity.  It's just load area -> kill stuff -> load next area.  I've wanted actual limited camping supplies for some time now and Obsidian seems to be going in the opposite direction in terms of design and it makes me sad.

 

Edit: I can't believe there are actually people in this thread acting like camping supplies are limited.  The only limit is your patience for waiting to load a town then an interior before continuing to play the game.

man sounds like the game just hasn't really sucked you in. I highly doubt you play on super hard settings. Why power game it and complain about it. Don't respect characters, I wasnt even aware of this option and i'd never use it. Load your party with companions you like regardless of classes. NEVER go back to town to restock. ROLE PLAY. Play as a character, that's what I do the game is perfect for that. Camping supplies seems like 2 or 4 is a barren wasteland when u dont go back into town during an adventure. I highly doubt after u break into a place u could leave for a week and come back. So I dont play that way. a person wouldnt just change stats and skill set over ... so i dont play that way. An easier quest option by selecting a dialogue contrary to my character.... I dont click it. 

play the game like a table top RPG and you'll have more fun.  

 

 

I have 250 hours in the game playing on hardest setting (no expert because all it does is add tedium).  Most were played when the game had a design vision and before I found other games that actually made me choose strategies and provided actual challenges within well-defined game rules.  Crazy really, the idea that games exist where a player is challenged by the developer rather than himself and so accomplishments actually feel like accomplishments -- where unexpected things can occur that force me to re-think my strategy rather than spamming Slicken.

[durbal]

 

 

Edit: I can't believe there are actually people in this thread acting like camping supplies are limited.  The only limit is your patience for waiting to load a town then an interior.

 

Camping supplies ARE limited.  There isn't an infinite supply of them.

 

What game are you playing?  Camping supplies respawn at vendors.

Edited March 2, 2016 by durbal

[Crucis]

I think the only way to truly limit rest-spamming would be to have consequences for resting too much. Like once you have a quest and you enter the area dedicated to it, you can only rest so many times before the quest automatically fails. 

 

Or just put a timer on the entire game's main quest.

[Blades of Vanatar]

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: I can't believe there are actually people in this thread acting like camping supplies are limited. The only limit is your patience for waiting to load a town then an interior.

Camping supplies ARE limited. There isn't an infinite supply of them.

What game are you playing? Camping supplies respawn at vendors.

Eventually they respawn. Not automatically. If you want to play the game with limited resting just don't buy unlimited supplies. Self inflicted limitations make this game rock.

[Tigranes]

At some point you can't stop determined players, or you make the game frustrating for everybody. If some people want to go halfway to god mode and rest after every single battle, or waste their time going back to town 3 times a dungeon, or whatever, let them. I know if I wanted to do that, I would just use the console and save myself time - and I wouldn't go online talking about how the entire game should be redesigned to suit me. 

[ojthesimpson]

 

 

 

I have 250 hours in the game playing on hardest setting (no expert because all it does is add tedium).  Most were played when the game had a design vision and before I found other games that actually made me choose strategies and provided actual challenges within well-defined game rules.  Crazy really, the idea that games exist where a player is challenged by the developer rather than himself and so accomplishments actually feel like accomplishments -- where unexpected things can occur that force me to re-think my strategy rather than spamming Slicken.

 

 

 

 

yeah.... ahh sounds like you're describing a game that'll sell 100 copies if u buy 3 of em. maybe I read it wrong. 

[Ymarsakar]

Two things they can design in. Rests that aren't 8 hours long, shorter or mechanically different, as in in combat rather than out of combat. That way, you may be resting, but half your party is also not doing anything. Sort of like in XCOM 2. Having 1 hour rests plus 8 hour rests, might make it easier to balance. Since you can incrementalize it better. Instead of fully restoring the player's spells each 8 hours. You can give the player smaller rest periods, which restore smaller powers, and thus can more greatly limit the full rest periods and modify game difficulty to suit.

 

The other one would be tying the number of rests to the game plot, Watcher abilities, making a central mechanic as in NWN Mask of the Betrayer. Instead of limiting the player to a timed main quest, you limit the player on the micro/tactical level, rather than the strategic/logistical level.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Ymarsakar

[anameforobsidian]

Two things they can design in. Rests that aren't 8 hours long, shorter or mechanically different, as in in combat rather than out of combat. That way, you may be resting, but half your party is also not doing anything. Sort of like in XCOM 2. Having 1 hour rests plus 8 hour rests, might make it easier to balance. Since you can incrementalize it better. Instead of fully restoring the player's spells each 8 hours. You can give the player smaller rest periods, which restore smaller powers, and thus can more greatly limit the full rest periods and modify game difficulty to suit.

 

The other one would be tying the number of rests to the game plot, Watcher abilities, making a central mechanic as in NWN Mask of the Betrayer. Instead of limiting the player to a timed main quest, you limit the player on the micro/tactical level, rather than the strategic/logistical level.

 

Reviewers and many player hated the soul sucking mechanic in NWN2.  

[falchen]

 

Reviewers and many player hated the soul sucking mechanic in NWN2.  

 

 

I think that was mostly due to bad implementiation - it forced you to be either lawfull good or chaotic evil, and if your "addiction" got too high you could die traveling between areas.

[CaptainMace]

So does the existence of "story mode" harsh the developers vision, for you?

To be honest ? Yes.

And there's a reason it's called "story mode" genius.

 

But frankly, Gfted1, you already admitted several times that you sucked ass at IE games to begin with, so nobody's surprised you're glad to see a "story mode" coming, or bitching about ressource limits.

Edited March 3, 2016 by CaptainMace

[Gfted1]

See, the problem with being snarky is you have to pay attention and be accurate. Ive never said I suck at the IE games, I suck at PoE, genius.

 

And the beautiful thing about Story Mode is that CaptainMace never ever has to activate it, thus avoiding the hurt in the butt.