Cipher 3.0 - roll a Wizard instead

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I'm only playing PotD and can't see how this statement makes the situation any better.

 

You have to admit it: it's just too much. As I said: no problem with a nerf of certain abilities. But demotivate players to use all powers above lvl 3 can't be the way.

 

Hey, I said "might". Let me actually get to the higher levels with this playthrough and I'll give a detailed report then. For Now though I am still using "higher level" powers about as often as I did before, just further into the fight.

 

I do expect to use the highest level powers quite rarely given the cost tradeoff.

 

The single biggest change I've seen so far is that now Whisper of Treason is far more useful than Puppet Master. Before it was sortof a tradeoff because there were so many other good level 1 powers. Now with the cost difference you should just take Whisper instead, flat out. Puppet's a really good example of a power that needs its duration significantly lengthened now. 

[Sabotin]

This seems a weird change. Did anyone test out focus gain for any secret buffs to that?

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

This seems a weird change. Did anyone test out focus gain for any secret buffs to that?

 

No major changes so far that I've found.

 

As to items, everything I can find related to focus gain seems to also be nerfed or at least changed. For example, the drugs are all changed now and much less useful since they debuff essential stats. Similarly, the Drinking Horn of Moderation no longer buffs focus gain. There is still the Brishalgwin Mindmarker but it's neck slot so you probably want a different item there. 

 

That said as a general thing the Leadspitter kablammo-for-focus approach still seems to work, especially if targets are debuffed. I'm routinely hitting 50+ focus even at level 7. The real question will come as I hit the higher level game and start facing very high DR enemies, especially ones with piercing immunity. 

Edited January 25, 2016 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[mosspit]

I played a melee Cipher in my previous playthrough and was already using Amp Wave and Echo sparingly. Mainly as way to get trash encounters over and done with. I find it more fun to use the other stat modification spells and it compliments my self attacks in signature fights.

 

Trash mobs has always been straightforward. But the issue will arise when you enter extended fights with tough bosses. Focus generation there is really lackluster.

 

I feel that the focus nerf is to keep them on-par with the other spellcasters' mastery spell changes. But I feel it might not be necessary in the first place. Cipher Focus has already been nerfed enough previously (Focus gain per level halved, Draining Whip changes). Not reason to further mess with Focus resource management. Cipher I feel is a "sustained" spellcaster as compared to the other spellcasters who are more "bursty". That is what set them apart... But right now their abilities to do "sustained" casting is also becoming questionable.

[Elric Galad]

What one would botter play a cipher now when you can just play a chanter and cast AoE paralysis for 12s (big int) every 8s (low phrases, High level brisk) ?

 

Cipher does not even seem the best recursive CCer anymore...

 

It is sad because all classes finally looked pretty balanced...

Edited January 25, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Blades of Vanatar]

After putting a late night into the beta, I really didn't see much of a difference in the WM with my cipher. Borresaine was still racking up my focus and I was ripping off spells left and right. Amp Wave was used in most fights. But maybe because of enhancements from the patch to my other characters I wasn't noticing an impact. It does seem to, at a glance, screw a solo cipher.

[Inspector Switchblade]

It is so bad now? Not that is affecting me because I like more Xeravias spells, but nerfing ciphers can have a serious impact on those going for the triple Crown Solo, which is unfair for the players that already have it

[Carados]

So the quest against fun continues eh? Well let me say that Cipher has been my favourite class ever since they started talking about classes during kickstarter campaign. I thought the concept was really cool and I knew right then that my character would be a cipher. I'm happy that i finished the game in last spring as a cipher. It was a blast.

 

Sadly I notice that the good old days seem to be over. Lets make room for the ultimate balance, because thats what fun is all about.

I'm not honestly sure what is the Obsdian's objective here... This is a singleplayer game after all. I agree that ciphers were pretty op during release, but they were pretty darn fun too. Some kind of balance patch was needed ofcourse, but when you go this far, you change how the entire class behaves. Whats the point of playing cipher if you are constantly out of focus or if your powers are so weak that you cannot dominate enemies with them?

 

Maybe if Cipher's powers are too powerfull, they could make him a better close combat fighter instead?

 

Heh, but this is the same old debate. There will be always op strategies and builds. If you eliminate one, there will be an other. Its a never ending cycle.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Carados

[Blades of Vanatar]

Just wait for Boeroer's next Cipher build. I'm sure it will reveal a flaw in the system to the max. Boeroer! Boeroer! Boeroer!

Edited January 26, 2016 by Blades of Vanatar

[Boeroer]

I'm too p!ssed to even think about a cipher build right now.

[Raven Darkholme]

This thread reminds me of paladin threads created before really minor buffs to the paladin.

(Sacred Immolation came way later)

[Boeroer]

They gave his FoD +20 ACC - that's not minor I think.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

It is so bad now? Not that is affecting me because I like more Xeravias spells, but nerfing ciphers can have a serious impact on those going for the triple Crown Solo, which is unfair for the players that already have it

 

 

I'm up to level 9 now and it is starting to make a difference. The problem is some of the higher-tier powers don't scale as well any more given how long it takes to gather the focus for them. For example, Puppet Master costs three times what Whisper of Treason does, for the same duration of charm; Body Attunement lasts fifteen seconds when you've spent twice that gathering the focus for it; silent scream does minimal damage for the focus expended.

 

Some powers on the other hand still seem ok. All the staple low level powers are still just as good as they ever were (well, Mind Blast and Mental Binding were nerfed a little too hard in a prior patch it seems, but they're still somewhat serviceable) and some of the higher powers are still good too just more situational now.

[Raven Darkholme]

They gave his FoD +20 ACC - that's not minor I think.

This transformed him from unplayable to awesome? :D

[DreamWayfarer]

 

 

They gave his FoD +20 ACC - that's not minor I think.

This transformed him from unplayable to awesome? :D

They also buffed Lay On Hands, gave the auras secondary effects, and maybe other things I don't remember.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

 

They gave his FoD +20 ACC - that's not minor I think.

This transformed him from unplayable to awesome? :D

They also buffed Lay On Hands, gave the auras secondary effects, and maybe other things I don't remember.

 

I am quite aware of that, my point is the paladin was never as bad as people made him and the Sacred Immolation is actually WAY stronger than any of those buffs and came months later.

The same way the cipher will not be unplayable all of a sudden, especially if you factor in Spell mastery.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

I am quite aware of that, my point is the paladin was never as bad as people made him and the Sacred Immolation is actually WAY stronger than any of those buffs and came months later.

The same way the cipher will not be unplayable all of a sudden, especially if you factor in Spell mastery.

 

 

 

Well, I think the concern is that these changes are coming at the end of the development cycle for the game. It sounds like White March is going to be the last expansion; after that are they still going to do major balancing patches? So if they don't get Ciphers tweaked appropriately now, there won't be time for the up-tweak cycle to happen. 

[Abalon]

There is another expansion comming after white march called ascension was a article on rpggamer for it

[Raven Darkholme]

 

 

I am quite aware of that, my point is the paladin was never as bad as people made him and the Sacred Immolation is actually WAY stronger than any of those buffs and came months later.

The same way the cipher will not be unplayable all of a sudden, especially if you factor in Spell mastery.

 

 

 

Well, I think the concern is that these changes are coming at the end of the development cycle for the game. It sounds like White March is going to be the last expansion; after that are they still going to do major balancing patches? So if they don't get Ciphers tweaked appropriately now, there won't be time for the up-tweak cycle to happen. 

 

They did 6 or more patches before WM came out. Patches aren't necessarily related to expansions. ;P

[AndreaColombo]

My concern is not that this will be the last balance pass, especially because Josh said on SA there will still be some time to tweak things after the expansion comes out (my uneducated guess would be 2-3 more patches after that; if they do 4, hats off to them for fantastic post-release support.) My concern is that this balance pass in particular was simultaneously uncalled for and too heavy handed.

 

Ciphers were good, and yes—some of their powers were maybe too good; but they weren't game breaking. A small tweak to those individual powers (Echo, Amplified Wave, Tactical Meld) would have been understandable; a tweak to those powers + a significant increase in Focus cost for all powers + an unjustified nerf to Focus-generating drugs is too much. Note that their sub-optimal 7th level powers haven't been touched in the slightest. They were already not worth their Focus cost in 2.03; much less now.

[rheingold]

I'm not sure you guys are giving the devs enough credit. A couple of things to bear in mind. Just about every beta, every class tweak since the year dot has produced an over reaction akin to this one. In spite of that, the balance is pretty good. Now personally, I wouldn't make massive adjustments, I'd prefer baby steps, but Sawyer may be right, rather make a huge change and see what the reaction is. I'd be very surprised if they keep these changes for long. It may make the final white March expansion but pretty sure Obs will have patches after that and they will keep tweaking the classes. Patience will be rewarded. I don't personally play Ciphers but they are most definitely not finished.

[AndreaColombo]

Don't get me wrong, there—I have the utmost respect for the PoE team. They have shown their dedication, passion, and talent more than once since before the game released. The game has come a long way since March 2015 and I look forward to more of it when TWM pt. II drops. I'm also aware of the doubling/halving approach Josh embraces, and I too believe Ciphers' current status is not final. I'm merely voicing my opinion of it because the devs are known to read the boards for players' feedback, and this is mine

[rheingold]

Absolutely, it is important that they get feedback. My issue is these threads often turn negative really quickly. And that's counterproductive. But positive feedback (not necessarily agreeing or praising the devs, rather being constructive) is important. It's quite sad but many devs don't frequent their own forums, mainly because of the vitriol directed at them over the most inconsequential changes.

[knownastherat]

I have said it before, but to me constant balancing does not make the game any more enjoyable. I would guess most people played the game already and will not ever see them anyway so in this sense its pointless. Unless they try to balance game mechanics for future use, future project. For current use, I'd say its waste of time and money. The point is not to have 'perfect game' but game people play. 

 

As for vitriol on the forum. Yes nobody likes vitriol at the same time its kinda their job to be able to handle it and its lazy excuse for not participating. 

Edited January 26, 2016 by knownastherat

[Boeroer]

I don't know how your impression is guys - but especially in the character build forum I think a good atmosphere prevails. 

 

I express myself harshly this time because (although this is just a game) this nerf really hit a (my) nerve - and I really want this to go away.