I don't think I am able to get into this game, which is a huge shame and probably my fault or my own stupidity

[katie]

 

If someone who played these games in their childhood (who is now an adult in their mid-thirties) still has the time to dedicate to understanding absolutely everything and spends over 1000 hours on it, I'd really question what they are doing in their adult life at this point....

I had a lot of sympathy for your predicament up to this point, but passive-aggressively insulting people who are willing to help you out kind of killed that.

 

Out of curiosity, do you watch TV? If so, how much?

 

I'm just saying there's a reason to make things less punishing and more explorative. Make respecs free on normal, and make them cost more and more money on higher difficulties. There, problem solved.

There are scads and scads and scads of RPG-lites that are easy to learn, don't require much thought, time, or effort to master, and provide plenty of entertainment. Why not play one of them rather than calling to dumb down one of the few games which try to cater to a somewhat more hardcore crowd?

 

(Also, I would like respec gone altogether. It cheapens the entire game by trivialising your character-building choices.)

 

 

I don't watch tv. I have no time for that either. I don't even own a tv.

 

And my point is, is this the market for this game 35-year olds who have insane amounts of free time on their hands? Most 35-year olds have families, careers and a lot going on.

 

And btw, you did imply that my point was not really valid since there are others clamouring for the opposite. Basically it's this "we're real gamers who want challenge and puts tons of time into the game, and screw everyone else where our goals are not compatible with ours." You didn't say that exactly, but it certainly came off that way.

 

There is a direct correlation between wanting a game being more punishing and the amount of time you can realistically invest in a game, ESPECIALLY a throwback to a game where the mostly people in their 30's would have played anyway. And most people in this age group just don't have that kind of time any more. I guess at least 2 people do, but that is not the majority. Most people in their 30's I know have about as much free time as I do.

Edited December 30, 2015 by katie

[DreamWayfarer]

(Also, I would like respec gone altogether. It cheapens the entire game by trivialising your character-building choices.)

It saves unexperienced players from scraping their characters and helps experienced players text new builds and ideas without goingbthrought to whole game again. So, no, I'd rather keep it.

Edited December 30, 2015 by DreamWayfarer

[Zenbane]

Edit:

Removed everything I said since Tigranes altered my post and changed the context.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Zenbane
a bit too red

[PrimeJunta]

And my point is, is this the market for this game 35-year olds who have insane amounts of free time on their hands? Most 35-year olds have families, careers and a lot going on.

What do you care? Whatever the market for it is, you're clearly not in it.

 

Edit: and now, I'm done with this discussion. FYI, I also won't be replying to any further requests for help from you.

Edited December 30, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[PugPug]

With that said, the "Storymode" update that is right around the corner should be right up your alley! 

 

Bears repeating, in case you were just skimming.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Tigranes
quote consistency

[Tigranes]

Settle down, folks. 

 

Katie, if you wanted to enjoy POE and to find some ways to relieve the bits you found frustrating, I think you've found quite a few simple ways to do so in this thread. 

 

If you wanted to know why POE was made to require time investment and engagement relatively greater than more 'casual' games, well, it was kickstarted and made exactly for that purpose. Tens of thousands of people gave money because even if they played 20 minutes a night, they wanted that 20 minutes to be with a complex offering. And don't you know, the IE games were immensely complex games for anyone uninitiated to D&D rules. They were at least as bewildering as POE. In that respect, you might be taking your own personal history of when you played these games, and what your life is like now as a 30-something engineer, and sort of extrapolating that across the entire population. 

 

If ultimately POE is not for you, that's a pity but that's nobody's fault. We shouldn't have to write you off as being thick or lowbrow for that, and you shouldn't have to write the hundreds of thousands who have enjoyed POE - across all kinds of income brackets and age groups - as losers.

[Sedrefilos]

No need to spend 1000 hours to enjoy the game. I spent about 70-80 in three weeks and was enough for me. I'll probably spent some more after 2nd expansion part is out and that'll be it. In one playthrough you get the most of the experience you can get from it. You'd probably done all fights, met all companions and resolved all of their quests in one way or another, cleared all dungeons, finished most side quests and finished the main story with the way you chose. Well, after all these I don't feel the urge to re-play the game another 100 times. And, if others did, you shouldn't care anyway.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Sedrefilos

[PrimeJunta]

There's a lot to enjoy beyond that though. While I'm no Boeroer or Torm51, I have gotten a tremendous amount of fun from experimenting with different builds, party compositions, and tactics. Pillars has depth that few modern games do. Take Shadowrun Returns, for example -- I enjoyed those a lot too, but after playing through them once or twice, I don't find much to come back to.

[Sedrefilos]

I know there is; what I'm saying is one playthrough is no more than 70-80 hours on normal and it gives you a full experience. I personally don't replay rpgs because I tend to make the same choices. If it was a randomly generated dungeon crawler I'd probably spend more time in it experimenting with party compositions (now that's a nice mode it could have! ). But that's just me.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Sedrefilos

[PrimeJunta]

Oh, you get caught up in the Modron Maze too?

[Sedrefilos]

Haha. It just when an rpg is well made, I usually do the action I would myself do. So even if I try to play as someone else, I just can't! Can't play the super evil character for instance. If it's not well made I don't replay it because it just isn't fun to

That's the thing. Even if rpgs are my best video game genre, I only play them once! Strange huh?

Edited December 30, 2015 by Sedrefilos

[PrimeJunta]

Yeah, I know. I just do the evil playthroughs anyway and have a shower afterward.

 

I just finished a game of Civ V with a domination victory, while playing as Protestant-Fascist England, and it left me feeling really dirty. To make it worse, my final move was dropping a nuke on Attila. (To be fair, he had been repeatedly attacking my allies for a quite a while, and that aggression cannot stand.)

 

Completely different feelz than from the cultural victory I got as Buddhist-Communist Indonesia.

 

Attila is a big mean meany-head.

[Sedrefilos]

Yeah. Strategies, on the other hand, I can replay forever. I launch a new Civ V campaign every about 2-3 months. Even if I play the same way, the randomness of the game makes me adapt differently in each game. So life long replay value for me

[PrimeJunta]

Yeah I lovehate Civ V. It's one of the most just-one-more-round addictive games I've ever come across, but it really could be so much better (and some of the predecessors were, in those respects).

 

In particular, it has way too many positive feedback loops. Once you break through, you become unstoppable. I've looked at the graphs of all the games I've won, and there's always one point where my curve takes off, blasts past the competition, and after that it's all over bar the shouting. Or else you get the short end of the stick and get steamrolled by Attila or Ashurbanipal in the early game. (I usually play at King difficulty which means that I'm fairly severely outgunned early on; where I can muster at most two or three combat units, neighbouring civs field armies of ten, twelve or so.)

 

The only difference is when that happens. The Fascist England game was actually one of the rare ones it took until Renaissance -- at that point I was number 3 after Poland and the Shoshone, but then I built a navy and took the Shoshone capital which was on the coast; that gave me a comfortable lead over Poland, and that was pretty much that.

 

Some earlier iterations of the series made Happiness much harder to manage for large civs, which made it possible to turn the tables much more effectively. In Civ V it's really not a problem as long as you pay attention to it. OTOH they didn't have as many toys to play with, and Civ is all about the toys.

 

(Also, navies are way OP in Civ V, ever since you could use them to take cities -- and the AI isn't able to play them effecively. I've taken to playing on Pangaea maps lately to make things a bit more challenging. Trouble is, that tends to make the early game not-much-fun if you happen to have someone aggressive for a neighbour. All too often you get stuck with unwinnable wars that drain all your resources or kill you outright, what with the production bonuses the AI gets.)

[Sedrefilos]

Prime, I think we're driving this thread off-topic

[PrimeJunta]

No big loss methinks.

[Trogdor]

Settle down, folks. 

 

Katie, if you wanted to enjoy POE and to find some ways to relieve the bits you found frustrating, I think you've found quite a few simple ways to do so in this thread. 

 

If you wanted to know why POE was made to require time investment and engagement relatively greater than more 'casual' games, well, it was kickstarted and made exactly for that purpose. Tens of thousands of people gave money because even if they played 20 minutes a night, they wanted that 20 minutes to be with a complex offering. And don't you know, the IE games were immensely complex games for anyone uninitiated to D&D rules. They were at least as bewildering as POE. In that respect, you might be taking your own personal history of when you played these games, and what your life is like now as a 30-something engineer, and sort of extrapolating that across the entire population. 

 

If ultimately POE is not for you, that's a pity but that's nobody's fault. We shouldn't have to write you off as being thick or lowbrow for that, and you shouldn't have to write the hundreds of thousands who have enjoyed POE - across all kinds of income brackets and age groups - as losers.

 

Hmm I am not quite sure I agree. I found the Infinity Engine games to be pretty straightforward. I usually ended up with three tanky characters in front (fighter, Pally), one healer (all slots devoted to healing) and mage (all slots devoted to direct damage or breach / lower resistance spells) Then the ranged thief in the back. My brilliant strategy in all fights were: Kill mage, then splatter the rest. My PC was usually a berserker fighter.

 

I can't really play POE the same way. Or well, I suppose I can, but I have to reload quite a bit. I feel POE wants me to treat each battle as a unique challenge where I need to use the right tools (spells, abilities) for each encounter. Use the right buffs/debuffs for certain opponents, pay CLOSE ATTENTION in combat, be ready to adjust when the opponents cast spells and so on. I really don't really feel like going through all that, so I have rather powered through the encounters in a ham-fisted brute force approach. It ain't pretty, it doesn't really work, but you get there in the end. After a few reloads in the more difficult fights

That being said, I found the game more enjoyable with the expansion and the ability to give your party scripts. I like playing games on "normal" difficulty, since I figure the game has been beta tested and developed with that setting in mind. Also, just breezing though a game on some super easy setting feels like a cheat, so thats not an option.

 

TL;DR: Infinity games were more like rock-scissor-paper. POE is more like chess.

[Pelmaleon]

This has probably been said multiple times before, but each time you come back to the game multiple months later, make sure to go through your spells one by one and reread them. It helps a ton to know what exactly is in your arsenal so you can better overcome unique, tough battles. If you come back and only remember a few of them, your party potency will be greatly diminished, subsequently making the battles much more difficult. For a general combat tip, crowd control spells that confuse or sleep the enemy are great to give your party much more time to cast buff, debuff, and damaging spells. Also, remember to use your gold to buy summoning items whenever you come across them and prioritize giving them to party members without extremely important start-of-the-fight spells or abilities.

[Boeroer]

Another problem that you may encounter when you stop playing and try to come back later are the patches. Some of them changed combat mechanics and abilities - what used to work doesn't anymore and so on. 

[Eliteseraph]

Hmm I am not quite sure I agree. I found the Infinity Engine games to be pretty straightforward. I usually ended up with three tanky characters in front (fighter, Pally), one healer (all slots devoted to healing) and mage (all slots devoted to direct damage or breach / lower resistance spells) Then the ranged thief in the back. My brilliant strategy in all fights were: Kill mage, then splatter the rest. My PC was usually a berserker fighter.

 

I can't really play POE the same way. Or well, I suppose I can, but I have to reload quite a bit. I feel POE wants me to treat each battle as a unique challenge where I need to use the right tools (spells, abilities) for each encounter. Use the right buffs/debuffs for certain opponents, pay CLOSE ATTENTION in combat, be ready to adjust when the opponents cast spells and so on. I really don't really feel like going through all that, so I have rather powered through the encounters in a ham-fisted brute force approach. It ain't pretty, it doesn't really work, but you get there in the end. After a few reloads in the more difficult fights

That being said, I found the game more enjoyable with the expansion and the ability to give your party scripts. I like playing games on "normal" difficulty, since I figure the game has been beta tested and developed with that setting in mind. Also, just breezing though a game on some super easy setting feels like a cheat, so thats not an option.

 

TL;DR: Infinity games were more like rock-scissor-paper. POE is more like chess.

I'm exactly the same way. But what I find most conflicting about this is that while the combat system appears to be so vital to the game, ots actually the least rewarding when it comes to progressing your party. Other than the monster codex you don't get exp for kills, and a large majority of the quests can be completed through stealth or the correct conversation choices. It's very counter intuitive IMHO.

 

I've had moderate success with a party of 2 paladins and 4 chanters in an effort to minimize micromanaging, but even that takes a bit of work and correctly timed abilities.

 

If I had any advice for someone trying to get used to PoE, it's probably to just do a playthrough on easy with all the assist options turned on, use Google to find Maps and guides and other spoilers. Then if you want more after that you can start turning up all the dials until you get a nice balance between challenge and enjoyment.

 

I remember trying to play BG1 and 2 with the insane tweak pack that was almost a complete conversion. I feel like a lot of PoE is inspired by that kind of micro-intensive gameplay. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but ita also not for everyone.

[Fenixp]

a large majority of the quests can be completed through stealth or the correct conversation choices

Yes, there you go, that's why you don't get EXP for combat. Not being forced to kill off every single enemy you encounter is a lot more natural and therefore more intuitive than having to hunt every single last monster on the map because 50XP, man.

[Boeroer]

I also don't know why lots of people say that PoE's combat is difficult. My very first game was on normal without min-maxing or anything like that. I had no idea what I was doing (compared to now) and I had some really messed up builds in my party. But after ActI things turned from normal to very easy.

[Eliteseraph]

 

a large majority of the quests can be completed through stealth or the correct conversation choices

Yes, there you go, that's why you don't get EXP for combat. Not being forced to kill off every single enemy you encounter is a lot more natural and therefore more intuitive than having to hunt every single last monster on the map because 50XP, man.

 

I understand why they did it(I actually read a lot of the beta arguments), I simply pointed out that it's pretty counter intuitive to remove ALL experience for combat in a game which is designed so heavily around the combat systems.    Additionally, removing ALL experience for combat also actively discourages a combat-oriented playstyle.  It's one thing to give equal options and rewards to encourage other styles of play, but another thing entirely to actively single out and discourage one single style of play.   I believe that's what getting experience from the bestiary log was for?    Still, you fight so many of the same types of enemies in PoE, that it very quickly becomes about going out of your way to avoid combat because it's simply not worth the hassle or the reward.   

 

I personally think that's a mistake, but I'm also intelligent and mature enough to see and appreciate the value of what the game is as well.   

 

Sorry, a bit of a side-topic.  I don't want to turn this into another argument about monster exp.      My original point was that PoE combat seems to be highly influenced by the Baldur's Gate era of micro-management on the highest difficulty settings. And that style of play isn't for everyone. I think a lot of people who played those earlier games(myself included)  were able to min-max their characters to be very low maintenance, and then proceed to clobber their way through the game.  It's a style of play that isn't really available in PoE on the highest setting. The combat is much more complex and tactical, and requires a lot more micro-management in order to avoid being mercilessly slaughtered. And when you do overcome enemies after all that work, you're not rewarded with experience.    Like other mechanics of the game, it takes some getting used to, and  I can see why it would be very off-putting to someone who expected to be able to play in mostly the same way as the older games. 

 

 

[Tigranes]

"If I had any advice for someone trying to get used to PoE, it's probably to just do a playthrough on easy with all the assist options turned on, use Google to find Maps and guides and other spoilers. Then if you want more after that you can start turning up all the dials until you get a nice balance between challenge and enjoyment."

 

This is indeed the way to go. There can be any number of reasons why you find the combat in a game difficult while another guy blows through it. Make it work for you. When we think about it, it makes perfect sense that you can't "clobber their way through" combat without a lot of tactical control on the highest difficulty setting. (I doubt you could do so on BG2 Insane, either, but eh, I won't argue)

[Eliteseraph]

I didn't much enjoy BG on the highest setting, and you're right that there was very little clobbering. It was just abusing prior knowledge of each encounter with even the slightest mistake resulting in a reload. The micromanaging reached stupidly high levels.

 

So far PoE has been mostly enjoyable, however. Not sure if that's because it's better designed, or just because ots still new to me.