CISA attatched to omnibus bill

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

https://www.congress.gov/resources/display/content/Appropriations+for+Fiscal+Year+2016#AppropriationsforFiscalYear2016-budgetresolutions

 

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151215/06470133083/congress-drops-all-pretense-quietly-turns-cisa-into-full-surveillance-bill.shtml

 

Enjoy being spied on my fellow Americans.

[Meshugger]

So they scrapped all pretenses of indiscriminate surveillance? No going through DHS? Way to go you idiots. The EU is next.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Meshugger

[Hurlshort]

Well now is the time to raise a stink, like we've had to do in the past.  It still isn't attached to the bill, so it can be held up.

[Barothmuk]

Freest country in the world. 

[BruceVC]

https://www.congress.gov/resources/display/content/Appropriations+for+Fiscal+Year+2016#AppropriationsforFiscalYear2016-budgetresolutions

 

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151215/06470133083/congress-drops-all-pretense-quietly-turns-cisa-into-full-surveillance-bill.shtml

 

Enjoy being spied on my fellow Americans.

KP I know this type of thing bothers you but can I ask you a honest question, what is about this that really bothers you ?

 

Is it just the principle or do you think the day is coming when suddenly American citizens will be arrested or harassed for what they say on the Internet ?

[Guard Dog]

 

https://www.congress.gov/resources/display/content/Appropriations+for+Fiscal+Year+2016#AppropriationsforFiscalYear2016-budgetresolutions

 

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151215/06470133083/congress-drops-all-pretense-quietly-turns-cisa-into-full-surveillance-bill.shtml

 

Enjoy being spied on my fellow Americans.

KP I know this type of thing bothers you but can I ask you a honest question, what is about this that really bothers you ?

 

Is it just the principle or do you think the day is coming when suddenly American citizens will be arrested or harassed for what they say on the Internet ?

 

That is EXACTLY what will happen. The powers the government grants itself never expire, The never go away. Today it is used to look for "terrorists" but even now members of the government are looking for their next enemy: http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/muslim-congressman-our-largest-domestic-threat-comes-racial-supremacist. Plus don't forget the Obama admin had the IRS harassing not just any PACs but specifically the ones opposed to him https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/irs-admits-targeting-conservatives-for-tax-scrutiny-in-2012-election/2013/05/10/3b6a0ada-b987-11e2-92f3-f291801936b8_story.html. And his admin has already called veterans, libertarians, pro-lifers, tea-party supporters, and Constitutionalists likely terrorists and enemies of the United States: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/14/federal-agency-warns-of-radicals-on-right/ & http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/16/napolitano-stands-rightwing-extremism/?page=all

 

Taken along with the fact that Barack Obama has been a limp wristed pansy when it comes to dealing with Islamic terrorists abroad it seems the only people he feels threatened by are Americans. And small wonder he hates them. After all 121 million of them voted against him in 2 elections. However he has shown restraint at home in that he hasn't ordered the killing of any Americans on US soil, although his AG certainly asserted it would be perfectly ok if he did: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/06/us/politics/holder-explains-threat-that-would-call-for-killing-without-trial.html?_r=0. Yes he ended up walking that back but only after Rand Paul raised hell over it.

 

So yes there is ample reason to be concerned with what this government is doing, today the enemy might be radical Islam but it doesn't mean tomorrow they won't decide the enemy is me, or any other American. As Ben Franklin said “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” And they will have neither.

[Volourn]

Of course they will.  That's what govt's all try to do - squash those who oppose them in any way possible. So, they make laws like this  and go 'think of the chidlren', 'think of the safety'. They tell the public  the worst case scenario but leave out that laws will also trap otherwise harmless people for saying thinsg the gov't don't like. Ripe for abuse. I remember when Bush was in office and give all thsoe new powers to 'fight terroriots' Demcoratcs were all over him... yet now the Dems are doing the exact same thing - giving even more power to the gov't. LMAO

 

Neither side stops to think that the opposition will liekly eventually  get voted in again so will be abuse to 'abuse' those powers too.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Volourn

[Enoch]

On the other hand, the Omnibus draft also includes a provision making sledding on Capitol Hill legal.  So it ain't all bad!

[Guard Dog]

Well it has passed. This big government monstrosity is a fact of life now. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

"Now"? It's been that way my entire 23 years of life.

 

Better start working on your decker build chummers, because cyberpunk dystopia is what we're on a crash course for.

[Sakai]

Better start working on your decker build chummers, because cyberpunk dystopia is what we're on a crash course for.

A little bit too dramatic, no? Somehow i doubt this bill is going to be the end of civilization as we know it. 

[HoonDing]

I'll wait for the Reader's Digest bill.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Better start working on your decker build chummers, because cyberpunk dystopia is what we're on a crash course for.

 

A little bit too dramatic, no? Somehow i doubt this bill is going to be the end of civilization as we know it.

Not at all.

 

We have the TPP/TTIP incoming which will require more catering to corporations and less freedom for individuals. The EU keeps pushing austerity and privatization on states whose economies can't handle it and the result is more unemployment and wage stagnation while a few private entities gain control over infrastructure. There is no escape from the march towards dystopia.

[Sakai]

Not at all.

We have the TPP/TTIP incoming which will require more catering to corporations and less freedom for individuals. The EU keeps pushing austerity and privatization on states whose economies can't handle it and the result is more unemployment and wage stagnation while a few private entities gain control over infrastructure. There is no escape from the march towards dystopia.

"If you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror." There is an escape, and quite an easy one too. Go out there and change things. Also, you are exaggerating. I pretty much live in the "dystopia" you described, and sure it's bad but still a very long way to cyberpunk. 

[213374U]

There is an escape, and quite an easy one too. Go out there and change things.

That hasn't worked out so well in the past.

 

Unless what you mean is more along these lines.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

There is an escape, and quite an easy one too.

Suicide ain't for me.

 

Go out there and change things.

How? Wave a magic wand and get people to realize what's going on right in front of them?

 

Also, you are exaggerating. I pretty much live in the "dystopia" you described, and sure it's bad but still a very long way to cyberpunk.

Corporations are able to take legal action against you for pretty much anything? Or has austerity eroded the standard of living so much where women are prostituting for individual meals?

[Tigranes]

Whatever you think about surveillance, it's criminally negligent to be OK with backdoor legislation. If you think the surveillance is OK, why does it need to be snuck in like a teen with drugs up his arse? USA Freedom Act made a specific, partial, not-hugely-significant restriction on surveillance; now CISA opens yet another legal backdoor to a huge set of problems. I don't necessarily believe that surveillance is always bad, and in terms of what it tries to do technically, it can't help but be indiscriminate to be truly effective. But the decision itself needs to be made through proper public and government scrutiny, and it is terrible that now the government was caught with its pants down by Snowden, it now decides to basically find ways to sneak stuff in plain air. 

 

And wherever you are on the surveillance scale, from 'it is great' to 'it is the worst', it is unfathomably naive, not to mention entirely incorrect, to think that none of this stuff is 'so bad' and all the talk about dystopia is just exaggeration. Without going into excruciating detail, surveillance (electronic & otherwise) we know for a fact has been used, in US, UK or both, for spying on activists; for journalists; for human rights organisations; for respected Muslim scholars with a record of decades of citizenship and service without any reason, before or after surveillance, to suspect them of anything; and more. No need to wait for slippery slope arguments; it is proven that GCHQ spied on Amnesty International; that American surveillance workers in the Middle East were explicitly instructed not to filter out Western journalist / NGO communications (James Bamford, The Shadow Factory); that NYC police staked out and spied on shops just because owners were black; and yes, we have people spying on and infiltrating 'disruptive' civil groups to make them fear for their privacy and to disrupt their organisational fabric, while undercover police have spied on Black Lives Matter activists. 

 

Would I still support indiscriminate collection of internet traffic in some form? Likely. The Internet is not a sacred domain free of state power, despite some early dreams, and some effort to analyse and monitor it is inevitable, and carries a lot of benefits (even if mostly hypothetical). But there's many different ways for that collection to happen. Secret courts, secret authorisation memos kept secret from members of the Department of Justice, backdoor legislation, papering over the cracks and calling it a 'Freedom Act', using terrorist attacks as an excuse to bypass public scrutiny, etc. is not the way to do it. 

[BruceVC]

 

There is an escape, and quite an easy one too. Go out there and change things.

That hasn't worked out so well in the past.

 

Unless what you mean is more along these lines.

 

No offense 2133 but the example of Greek austerity is really a bad one 

 

Of course Greece needs to repay the EU Troika.....you have these strange views that these types of debts can just be written off...you know how much th this was 

[BruceVC]

nstructed not to filter out Western journalist / NGO communications (James Bamford, The Shadow Factory); that NYC police staked out and spied on shops just because owners were black; and yes, we have people spying on and infiltrating 'disruptive' civil groups to make them fear for their privacy and to disrupt their organisational fabric, while undercover police have spied on Black Lives Matter activists. 

 

Would I still support indiscriminate collection of internet traffic in some form? Likely. The Internet is not a sacred domain free of state power, despite some early dreams, and some effort to analyse and monitor it is inevitable, and carries a lot of benefits (even if mostly hypothetical). But there's many different ways for that collection to happen. Secret courts, secret authorisation memos kept secret from members of the Department of Justice, backdoor legislation, papering over the cracks and calling it a 'Freedom Act', using terrorist attacks as an excuse to bypass public scrutiny, etc. is not the way to do it. 

 

Whatever you think about surveillance, it's criminally negligent to be OK with backdoor legislation. If you think the surveillance is OK, why does it need to be snuck in like a teen with drugs up his arse? USA Freedom Act made a specific, partial, not-hugely-significant restriction on surveillance; now CISA opens yet another legal backdoor to a huge set of problems. I don't necessarily believe that surveillance is always bad, and in terms of what it tries to do technically, it can't help but be indiscriminate to be truly effective. But the decision itself needs to be made through proper public and government scrutiny, and it is terrible that now the government was caught with its pants down by Snowden, it now decides to basically find ways to sneak stuff in plain air. 

 

And wherever you are on the surveillance scale, from 'it is great' to 'it is the worst', it is unfathomably naive, not to mention entirely incorrect, to think that none of this stuff is 'so bad' and all the talk about dystopia is just exaggeration. Without going into excruciating detail, surveillance (electronic & otherwise) we know for a fact has been used, in US, UK or both, for spying on activists; for journalists; for human rights organisations; for respected Muslim scholars with a record of decades of citizenship and service without any reason, before or after surveillance, to suspect them of anything; and more. No need to wait for slippery slope arguments; it is proven that GCHQ spied on Amnesty International; that American surveillance workers in the Middle East were explicitly instructed not to filter out Western journalist / NGO communications (James Bamford, The Shadow Factory); that NYC police staked out and spied on shops just because owners were black; and yes, we have people spying on and infiltrating 'disruptive' civil groups to make them fear for their privacy and to disrupt their organisational fabric, while undercover police have spied on Black Lives Matter activists. 

 

Would I still support indiscriminate collection of internet traffic in some form? Likely. The Internet is not a sacred domain free of state power, despite some early dreams, and some effort to analyse and monitor it is inevitable, and carries a lot of benefits (even if mostly hypothetical). But there's many different ways for that collection to happen. Secret courts, secret authorisation memos kept secret from members of the Department of Justice, backdoor legislation, papering over the cracks and calling it a 'Freedom Act', using terrorist attacks as an excuse to bypass public scrutiny, etc. is not the way to do it. 

I have to be honest I don't really understand this American aversion to being spied on ,....its not like you will  be targeted. I install eDiscovery all the time, this is form a spying ...various financial  corporations  use it all the time and no one even knows 

 

So you need to trust the government a little and learn to accept the NSA knows more than you about security. You know Glenn Greenwald is considered by many in the USA  as  a  traitor and is aligned to Snowden

 

And yes those are possibly concerning examples but do they really bother you...I mean spying on Amnesty International? Who cares when the safety of the  USA is concerned ?

Edited December 19, 2015 by BruceVC

[Sakai]

How? Wave a magic wand and get people to realize what's going on right in front of them?

Well, for example i know there are some groups in US trying to get money out of politics. You can join one of those. Sure, it's not as fun as complaining on the couch, thinking you're one of the few who "understands", but you gotta start somewhere, right? Changes won't happen on their own. 

[Malcador]

There is an escape, and quite an easy one too. Go out there and change things.

Indeed, but it's best along these lines

 

[Meshugger]

Remember me telling you that the H1-B visa program was a manufactured scam created by lobbyists? Well, an extended version of it, called H2-visa, also passed in the same bill.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBqrWL3h9-g

 

Indiscriminate spying and undercutting the american worker, what a time to be alive. The conversation between JC Denton and Morpheus becomes very eerie by now: