Turkey shoots down russian jet

[Darkpriest]

I am not anti-Western, I am anti-stupid, I am pro Western, it makes me money. It is just the idiocy of politicians who think that tens of thousands years of human physical evolution and 5000 years of cultural development and differences can be solved with a few laws within 1 human generation...

 

I like divesity and I am generally tolerant, but i am not stupid enough to push myself into a situation when someone endangers my lifestyle and peace.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Darkpriest

[BruceVC]

I am not anti-Western, I am anti-stupid, I am pro Western, it makes me money. It is just the idiocy of politicians who think that tens of thousands years of human physical evolution and 5000 years of cultural development and differences can be solved with a few laws within 1 human generation...

 

I like divesity and I am generally tolerant, but i am not stupid enough to push myself into a situation when someone endangers my lifestyle and peace.

Thats what I thought. Don't get me wrong I enjoy the varied views of the members who dislike the West on this forum, they are wrong almost all the time or they are biased but I enjoy seeing a different view on certain political developments

 

But my question is why is Poland so unhappy with the EU? I don't mean this is in a superficial level so " its about the refugees being forced on to us " ( I am still very annoyed by this move and I feel that it shouldn't be mandatory for any EU country to have to accept any Syrians...let the Germans and the Norwegians take them in but to just expect the East European countries to do this is just unreasonable..and I'm still a huge fan of Merkel and Germany despite the initial mistake to take in original refugees )

 

But I see now that there is real political division in Poland with this new " anti-EU " party? Why would this exist and are there objectives reasonable?

[Meshugger]

Does the current rumors about Saudi-Arabia acquiring nukes have any merit? 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXuJkVPRjNI

[Rostere]

Does the current rumors about Saudi-Arabia acquiring nukes have any merit? 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXuJkVPRjNI

 

Well...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt3trHKqdiM

[Gorth]

So, where is the world wide call for a boycot of all Saudi exports and a freezing of assets?

[Urthor]

Apparently it's old news and everyone knew about it, the former CIA agent is just bringing it up.  Saudis apparently did a deal with Pakistan years ago for rent a nukes, basically the quid pro quo was if Iran got nukes and Saudis were wedged between Israeli nukes and Iranian nukes they would buy some Pakistani nukes, and they apparently paid for the nukes from Pakistan already, so they're a nuclear nation whenever they feel like it.  

 

 

Diplomatically seems more like it was a tool to put pressure on Obama and the United States circa 2009/2010 than anything, and it was kept very quiet because do you think Obama wanted it known that he'd let the country where Osama Bin Laden is from to acquire nukes when he was running for re-election in 2012 to get out.  

 

There was a friggin BBC report in 2013, followed by Time of London one according to Wikipedia.  

[Meshugger]

Well ****.

 

Thanks for the answers though. It is quite telling how little of this is discussed in MSM.

[Zoraptor]

KSA also bought nuclear missiles (sans warheads) off of China with no call to boycott. I'm always a bit baffled* by people who insist that KSA simply cannot get nukes off Pakistan just because when they sold nuclear tech direct to North Korea and various others- probably including Iran since their centrifuges were identical to Pakistan's- as well.

 

*Not really, a refusal to accept the inconvenient is about the most intrinsically human trait there is.

 

And there's going to be another 'cessation of hostilities' attempt over the weekend. It's equally unlikely to succeed.

[Drowsy Emperor]

Getting them is one thing, getting to use them is another. There are so many American bases in the region they could wipe Saudi Arabia off the map in 24 hours probably. Especially if you take into consideration that its another non-state held together by little more than a couple of dozen individuals.

[Zoraptor]

Vladimir Vladimirovitch announces withdrawal of Russian forces from Syria!

 

Well kind of, and with some pretty massive caveats. They're keeping their air base and naval base, planes, ships, AA etc there so what is going is unclear. It's certainly got some breathless responses from the usual suspects (is Putin dropping Assad?!?!?) but almost certainly means next to nothing practically, and is designed to short circuit some opposition objections at the peace talks and associated western narrative. They can literally fly equipment and planes in and out on at most a daily turnaround time (hours for fighters/ bombers) and those there have less to do at present.

[BruceVC]

Yeah I saw this development, I warned you guys...I said its irrelevant if Russia ends the Syrian war....no one with the right resources will support Assad and help rebuild Syria....you know Assad still refuses to step down

 

This is the great " ally " of Russia ....can there  be a more callous and reprehensible person than someone like Assad? The Syrian civil and the future of Syria is broken...its dysfunctional. Unless Assad steps down the country has no future

 

I am surprised Russia pulled out so soon but I thought it was inevitable. But its a disappointment because I want Russia to get more involved in foreign affairs....they need to realize the effort and sacrifice the West has gone through in places like the ME..and there is no real gratitude felt. So why get involved ? 

[BruceVC]

I was watching this event live....its very disappointing. I'm not sure what Russia has actually achieved ....is ISIS in Syria even defeated?

 

@ Oby

 

I can imagine how upset you must be. Sorry about that after all this talk about  " Russian military superiority "  and Russia didnt even attack ISIS?

 

What was the point of even going into Syria?

Edited March 15, 2016 by BruceVC

[Darkpriest]

No, Assads position got stronger and there are rumors of Ukraine and some other matters being a trade off. It all depends though how the process in Syria will look going forward.

[BruceVC]

No, Assads position got stronger and there are rumors of Ukraine and some other matters being a trade off. It all depends though how the process in Syria will look going forward.

You cant think Russia pulling out is beneficial...what about ISIS at Raqqa? 

 

I thought the Syrian objective was to defeat ISIS....aren't they the real threat. So for me all I can say about Russia in Syria is they bombed the free Syrian army and gave Assad more control but I really thought they were going to ensure Assad stayed in power?

[Fighter]

I am surprised Russia pulled out so soon but I thought it was inevitable. But its a disappointment because I want Russia to get more involved in foreign affairs....they need to realize the effort and sacrifice the West has gone through in places like the ME..and there is no real gratitude felt. So why get involved ? 

 

 

I was watching this event live....its very disappointing. I'm not sure what Russia has actually achieved ....is ISIS in Syria even defeated?

 

@ Oby

 

I can imagine how upset you must be. Sorry about that after all this talk about  " Russian military superiority "  and Russia didnt even attack ISIS?

 

What was the point of even going into Syria?

 

Everyone about this issue is being obtuse for some reason. Russian airforce is not leaving Syria. Only some of the ground units that weren't doing anything (at least officially). It's a political move that is not going to change anything. The militants are no longer advancing and closing in on Assad's strongholds, his removal by force is no longer on the table.

 

So as far as "what was achieved". What was supposed to be achieved realistically? Russia should have gone all in trying to hold Syria together on the ground like US did in Iraq & Afghanistan? Because that ended well and achieved lots... I don't like Putin but I have to pat him on the back for not getting bogged down in anything like that (yet).

[Zoraptor]

Only reason I can think of for so many reports of 'all' Russian forces leaving is so they can complain when the Hmeimem and Tartus bases/ air force stay, despite that not being what was said. Basically it's the same process with Lavrov saying Russia would bomb all terrorists and it being translated to only bombing ISIS/ Al Qaeda so they can complain when non ISIS/ AlQ targets are hit (despite there being more Russian strikes against ISIS in Syria than everyone except for the US combined, and far more on average per day than the US as well).

 

ISIS is done as a 'state' anyway, it's just a question of where the division ends up territory wise between the Kurds/ SDF and the government. They're down to making glorified raids, tactically annoying but strategically irrelevant. Wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if ISIS didn't have a single city in their control at the end of 2016.

[Fighter]

Some people may not want to admit this but Assad's regime intact is more damaging to ISIS future than anything. Because if the "democratic rebels" win and the country will turn into a wasteland ruled by warring factions covered in sh*t, blood, and sharia tyranny. As everyone knows it would. That's when ISIS would thrive the most.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Fighter

[Darkpriest]

They are, but first they need to consolidate power in the proximity of Damascus and Aleppo. Without that they would just stretch too far. So once they will eliminate groups in the north and west they will move towards their border with Iraq

[BruceVC]

 

I am surprised Russia pulled out so soon but I thought it was inevitable. But its a disappointment because I want Russia to get more involved in foreign affairs....they need to realize the effort and sacrifice the West has gone through in places like the ME..and there is no real gratitude felt. So why get involved ? 

 

 

I was watching this event live....its very disappointing. I'm not sure what Russia has actually achieved ....is ISIS in Syria even defeated?

 

@ Oby

 

I can imagine how upset you must be. Sorry about that after all this talk about  " Russian military superiority "  and Russia didnt even attack ISIS?

 

What was the point of even going into Syria?

 

Everyone about this issue is being obtuse for some reason. Russian airforce is not leaving Syria. Only some of the ground units that weren't doing anything (at least officially). It's a political move that is not going to change anything. The militants are no longer advancing and closing in on Assad's strongholds, his removal by force is no longer on the table.

 

So as far as "what was achieved". What was supposed to be achieved realistically? Russia should have gone all in trying to hold Syria together on the ground like US did in Iraq & Afghanistan? Because that ended well and achieved lots... I don't like Putin but I have to pat him on the back for not getting bogged down in anything like that (yet).

 

Fair enough, this is the first time someone has made a reasonable point around Russia leaving

 

But I'm not  sure why Russia went into Syria in the first place if they had no intention of defeating ISIS....they do have the military capability and once ISIS was defeated then they could have left and Assad taken over like he is doing now 

 

So no I definitely dont expect Russia to stay in Syria but lets look at the politics ...Russia has claimed to be Assad's ally right. So logically they should at least destroy ISIS to help Assad? This is just basic diplomacy....so the whole thing doesn't really make sense to me? Because now Assad has to deal with ISIS ....Syria is still ungovernable because the peace talks are inclusive of the free Syrian army so ISIS should be the only threat

[Fighter]

^ Airstrikes against ISIS will continue: Click.

 

As far as what Russia should do as an ally. Well who is the military expert here to say how much exactly is necessary? I think after the US trying to destroy Taliban and... well ISIS for many years now everyone would have learned a lesson about realistic expectations.

 

EDIT: Also this was said by Putin last October aparently:

 

"Our goal: to stabilize the lawful authorities and create conditions for a political compromise".

Edited March 15, 2016 by Fighter

[BruceVC]

^ Airstrikes against ISIS will continue: Click.

 

As far as what Russia should do as an ally. Well who is the military expert here to say how much exactly is necessary? I think after the US trying to destroy Taliban and... well ISIS for many years now everyone would have learned a lesson about realistic expectations.

 

EDIT: Also this was said by Putin last October aparently:

 

"Our goal: to stabilize the lawful authorities and create conditions for a political compromise".

Okay well its good that the airstrikes will continue 

 

I consider myself a military expert but I dont understand the Russian play, anyway I'll be honest I dont really care about the ME and its problems. The whole region needs to take responsibility for there own issues so I was surprised Russia got so involved. Lets see what happens, I dont see a future for Syria under Assad

 

Its interesting Russia considers him the lawful authority....despite his refusal to make political concessions to his own people and him using chemical weapons. But anyway its not the Wests problem 

[Meshugger]

I consider myself a military expert

[BruceVC]

 

I consider myself a military expert

 

Thanks for reaffirming my view Meshugger, I wasn't sure you would agree  

[Meshugger]

Oh dear.

[kgambit]

 

 

I consider myself a military expert

 

Thanks for reaffirming my view Meshugger, I wasn't sure you would agree