White March Part 2 officially announced, coming January

[Sensuki]

So first you say your combat concerns were dismissed but then you try to make it seem like your combat concerns were considered but oh no it was too late to turn PoE in to SoE (Sensuki of Eternity). All you're doing is playing rock-paper-scissors with responses, and consistency is clearly optional.

You are in error, let's unwrap your selective quoting.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/83171-white-march-part-2-officially-announced-coming-january/?p=1750506

 

 

The part you omitted was the part where I re-iterated what I said in the first quote.

 

The biggest point you seem to be able to make this past month is that, PoE should be more like Baldur's Gate. Hooray.

 

PoE should never have been a one-for-one clone of BG, and luckily the information we've seen about future PoE updates continue to take us down a unique and much appreciated path. For those of us who still enjoy playing the game.

 

Find me a quote where I say that Pillars of Eternity should be more like Baldur's Gate. I only recall saying that Pillars of Eternity is not like Baldur's Gate, you seem to agree with that as well.

 

You're talking about stuff that you have no idea about either. I would tell you go to read some old forum threads from the beta but you're not interested in anything other than hilarious white knighting.

 

Click appropriate button -> remove effect

Yes. Exactly. The player actually has to process the information, realize they have to make a decision and perform an action in reaction to something the enemy does. It's great.

 

Click magic missiles and prioritize the mage. Of course, you prioritize the mage anyway, so that's actually all tactical decisionmaking there is to it (it's a bit more interesting when two mages are around, then you have to tell both your mages to use magic missiles.)

Magic Missile is a per-rest spell. You only have a certain number of casts per day. Particularly at very low levels you don't have many spell casts per day and if you don't create a Mage, you can't actually get a Mage NPC that can learn Magic Missile until you pick up Edwin or Dynaheir, because IIRC Xzar can't learn it, but he can use the scrolls.

 

You may also choose to play without a Mage. They're not a necessary party member in BG1.

 

I don't actually use Magic Missile to counter Mirror Image because I think that's overkill (most of the time) but even still, it is a spell that illicits a reaction from the player. The spells of the same nature in Pillars of Eternity illicit NO reaction from the player. Who cares about Arcane Veil or any of those similar spells? You just go LOLSUP and enemy Mages die straight away to whatever offensive abilities you use on them. It's pathetic.

 

If "by significant tactical reaction" you mean "kill the dudes before they kill your dude", then yes, it does :-P That's actually what you have to do in Pillars of Eternity tho, in BG you just click a button and make it go away.

Stuns, Stuck, Paralyze and other durations in Pillars of Eternity are usually of a somewhat short duration, for balance reasons. If you get paralyzed for 3-4 seconds, big deal.

 

A ghoul or a ghast holding your primary damage dealer (who is often also your 'tanking character') in a BG1 is a bigger deal than any of the similar effects in Pillars of Eternity. The only characters that have a disable in BG1 are spellcasters and those spells have a per-rest limit, there is opportunity cost to use of those spells, and you need to have them memorized.

 

In Pillars, most classes have disables, so one character getting held/paralyzed or whatever in the frontline is almost never a big deal as you're pounding the enemy lines with a stack of crowd control anyway. I recall there being maybe two instances in what I played of the vanilla game where a character getting disabled required a specific response to that particular affliction, one of those was in Od Nua where you are set upon by multiple groups of those Kobold-thingies. Forget their name and they have those champions that paralyze on hit.

 

You're right that I was in a huge tactically challenging situation when all of my charm persons were gone and my cleric was the one charmed. I have then had to tactically run around in circles while Benny Hill music was playing and wait until the affliction went away. Of course if only engagement system was present, that would change the situation quite a bit as most people don't want to be stuck in melee with my cleric. Alas, it's not, so mindlessly running around works perfectly.

Are you trying to say that the times when one of your characters in Pillars of Eternity get confused/charmed and score disengagement attacks on your party members next to them milliseconds later as soon as they move a single pixel on the map is good design?

 

I know what I would do if my friend was trying to attack me but the effect would wear off soon, I would run away. It is actually the most natural response. Your problem seems to be that the effect does not end when combat ends or you kill the caster like it does in Pillars of Eternity, another thing that makes the game easier. 

 

See, clicking a button is not a tactical decision as casting of spells removing afflictions usually takes very little time. Choosing the right spell to remove an affliction is not a tactical decision, it's just a matter of associating the right affliction with the right spell. Of course if you could not buff outside of combat, well that would add a whole bunch of tactical decisions as you'd have to commit to how do you wish to use your priest at any given point in time, but... You can. So you do that and then auto-attack. And occasionally click a button.

 

It involves the player actively realizing they need to respond to a dilemma and take the appropriate action. Such decision making is the very core of decision making in real-time combat, and it's easiest to eschew those decisions from the player with 'hard counter' situations.

 

The Infinity Engine games actually have more decision making involved when using spells such as Free Action, or whatever. Should you cast the spell before combat, or wait to see if you actually need it? I actually like pre-buffing. I don't agree with the removal of it in Pillars of Eternity but it's also not something I care too much about as it really only affects strategical gameplay, of which the game already has enough stacking of. Unfortunately it's less tactical and a lot less reactive.

 

You really make it seem like one would spend hours in pause mode, thinking of his next move in Baldur's Gate, where in fact pretty much all problematic situations can be removed by clicking a button and then the combat goes back to auto attacking. Pillars of Eternity quite simply doesn't allow you to do that, so you need to play around afflictions of your characters as opposed to just removing them

 

I don't believe I do. 

 

 

Video speaks for itself. Most of the time when I pause it is so I can perform an action with as little loss of game time as possible, I rarely pause to think. I make most of my decisions very quickly. That fight is using the Harder Belhifet mod which makes him immune to more things and have a higher magic resistance. He can hit multiple enemies at once and inflicts poison on hit. The fight requires reaction to his damage, targeting and afflictions, among other things.

 

In contrast, in something like a dragon fight in Pillars of Eternity (say, Cail the Silent) I just stood where I was and dealt damage and disables, and won. It was not very reactive. I also did not use Slicken or Warding Seal.

 

Cant EDIT: Don't call each other names please.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Cantousent

[Zenbane]

snipped by Cant

 

Ooh, Sensuki called me a name. Resorting to personal attacks when backed in a corner, ya' sad little troll.

 

Thanks for the screenshot but all you did was prove my point: you started with one excuse as to how your combat feedback was ignored, and then follow-up with another fictitious scenario about how your combat feedback just didn't get built in time. Nothing you quoted saves you from the contradiction.

 

As for finding more quotes... I just witnessed you hold a pair of apples in your hand and call them oranges. I doubt that finding more apples will make you realize you're holding a diverse fruit basket.

 

Cant EDIT: Sigh

Edited November 19, 2015 by Cantousent

[Sensuki]

Thanks for the screenshot but all you did was prove my point: you started with one excuse as to how your combat feedback was ignored, and then follow-up with another fictitious scenario about how your combat feedback just didn't get built in time. Nothing you quoted saves you from the contradiction.

I have no idea what you're talking about here lol, you're just making stuff up.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Sensuki

[Fenixp]

Yes. Exactly. The player actually has to process the information, realize they have to make a decision and perform an action in reaction to something the enemy does. It's great.

At this point I have automated such processes to an extent that these effects might as well not be there. Most of the time there's nothing restricting my movement so it's not like I have to care about my positioning or even think about using these spells, I just use them, the only annoyance is that I can't hotkey them. You're right that the gameplay is reactive, but the reactivity is so narrow that I never have to come up with creative solutions to situations which arose, I just do what I always do and carry on. The more of Baldur's Gate I play the more I dislike the fact that there's a counter to every affliction as it just becomes a case of having all counters memorized and then applying correct counter to the correct affliction as opposed to improvising and playing around the afflictions, which is something Pillars forces you to do quite a bit.

 

Magic Missile is a per-rest spell. You only have a certain number of casts per day. Particularly at very low levels you don't have many spell casts per day and if you don't create a Mage, you can't actually get a Mage NPC that can learn Magic Missile until you pick up Edwin or Dynaheir, because IIRC Xzar can't learn it, but he can use the scrolls.

As "luck" would have it, you encounter very few mages at early stages of the game, and at later stages there are about one or two per map. Since there's barely any need to use spells outside of mage encounters, having three magic missiles memorized at any given time gives me a spare per map. Sirens were a bit more of an issue, but when I encountered them, my archers already had good enough accuracy so they never really managed to cast a spell (aside from aforementioned charm)

 

I don't actually use Magic Missile to counter Mirror Image because I think that's overkill (most of the time) but even still, it is a spell that illicits a reaction from the player.

Well it's not like there's anything else I can reasonably use them against :-P

 

The spells of the same nature in Pillars of Eternity illicit NO reaction from the player. Who cares about Arcane Veil or any of those similar spells? You just go LOLSUP and enemy Mages die straight away to whatever offensive abilities you use on them. It's pathetic.

When I encountered a mage in Pillars, he became priority target and I used a spell/ability to knock him out of the combat. Not much different from how I handle them in BG. Pillars, however, forced a lot more reactionary behavior and improvisation out of me precisely due to engagements and afflictions which I can't just make go away.

 

Edit: Simply put, I find the combat in Baldur's Gate objectively worse than combat in Pillars of Eternity. It makes me think a lot less about how you approach situations you find yourself in, vast majority of my characters can do next to nothing but autoattack during combat, there's no planning or preparation needed and I actually do only rest in inns and do my best to explore an entire map without resting each time I enter one (I believe I didn't succeed and needed to return back to town once.) There's next to no resource management as most of the time I have plenty of everything I need to survive. I guess it would be different on higher difficulty (playing on Normal), but I can't see the game evolving past me having to return to town more often as without healing spells you quite simply can not carry on - there's just not enough options.

 

Edit2: Read trough your edit. By responding I'd just repeat myself for the most part, so I won't - if there's anything in particular you wish me to respond to, feel free to point it out, I do believe I have said all I wanted to say. I don't want to take over the thread again, feel free to keep it with Zenbane :-P

Edited November 19, 2015 by Fenixp

[Sensuki]

At this point I have automated such processes to an extent that these effects might as well not be there. Most of the time there's nothing restricting my movement so it's not like I have to care about my positioning or even think about using these spells, I just use them, the only annoyance is that I can't hotkey them. You're right that the gameplay is reactive, but the reactivity is so narrow that I never have to come up with creative solutions to situations which arose, I just do what I always do and carry on. The more of Baldur's Gate I play the more I dislike the fact that there's a counter to every affliction as it just becomes a case of having all counters memorized and then applying correct counter to the correct affliction as opposed to improvising and playing around the afflictions, which is something Pillars forces you to do quite a bit.

So if over up to 18 years of playing a game where reactions to actions become like muscle memory then that nullifies decision making to the point where it's no longer fun ?

 

What about driving a car? Now that you no longer have to stress over managing what you should be paying attention to at which particular time - speed, rear vision mirrors, the road, the gears ... does that making driving no longer fun?

 

What you seem to be saying is that because actions in the Infinity Engine games have become second nature, you no longer find them enjoyable but because you don't exactly know the optimal solution to combat problems in Pillars of Eternity, you are finding that enjoyable. That is exactly what I was saying the other week where the game is more fun when you don't know the perfect response to every action. You've also mentioned that you don't consider yourself to be that great at the game IIRC (and there's nothing wrong with that, and good on you for being able to admit it).

 

When I played Pillars of Eternity retail, I had been playing the beta for 7 months. The time of discovery had long past.

 

When I encountered a mage in Pillars, he became priority target and I used a spell/ability to knock him out of the combat. Not much different from how I handle them in BG. Pillars, however, forced a lot more reactionary behavior and improvisation out of me precisely due to engagements and afflictions which I can't just make go away.

Well, I suppose they're not *THAT* different from BG but IMO Mages in BG have better protection from normal damage - Mirror Image, Invisibility/Dimension Door and Protection from Normal Missiles make them tougher than any Pillars of Eternity Wizard. BG2 ... completely different ball game.

 

Edit: Simply put, I find the combat in Baldur's Gate objectively worse than combat in Pillars of Eternity. It makes me think a lot less about how you approach situations you find yourself in, vast majority of my characters can do next to nothing but autoattack during combat, there's no planning or preparation needed and I actually do only rest in inns and do my best to explore an entire map without resting each time I enter one (I believe I didn't succeed and needed to return back to town once.) There's next to no resource management as most of the time I have plenty of everything I need to survive. I guess it would be different on higher difficulty (playing on Normal), but I can't see the game evolving past me having to return to town more often as without healing spells you quite simply can not carry on - there's just not enough options.

To be honest I understand why people might prefer Pillars of Eternity combat to Baldur's Gate 1 combat especially if your penchant is strategy and preparation. BG has the simplest form of IE combat. What I am saying is that despite the fact that PE combat requires strategy and preparation I don't think it's very tactical or reactive, and it has a high player input across the board that does not correspond to an increase in decision making or problem solving by the player, which is the opposite of fun for me.

[Fenixp]

What about driving a car? Now that you no longer have to stress over managing what you should be paying attention to at which particular time - speed, rear vision mirrors, the road, the gears ... does that making driving no longer fun?

I ****ing hate driving :-P

[Cantousent]

Edited a couple of posts. You know, I at least skim these threads and actually read most of them. Don't call each other names, please. Friendly reminder for now.

 

EDIT: ...and I'm editing my own post because apparently, *I* am an idiot and forgot to include a subject in one sentence.

[Amentep]

I miss text adventures...

 

Turn on the light.

Get out of bed.

Die.

Repeat.

Dont turn on the light.

Get out of bed.

Take a few steps.

Die.

Repeat.

 

That was gaming! Everything that came later was just story mode.

 

Get out of bed

cast frotz on grue

laugh

die

repeat

[Zenbane]

Edited a couple of posts. You know, I at least skim these threads and actually read most of them. Don't call each other names, please. Friendly reminder for now.

 

EDIT: ...and I'm editing my own post because apparently, *I* am an idiot and forgot to include a subject in one sentence.

 

Honestly, you almost make name calling a fun exercise, cause your edits are kinda cute lol

 

Next time someone calls me a name can you just change it to the world, Pineapple? Personal request!

 

 

 

What I am saying is that despite the fact that PE combat requires strategy and preparation I don't think it's very tactical or reactive, and it has a high player input across the board that does not correspond to an increase in decision making or problem solving by the player, which is the opposite of fun for me.

 

And you solved this by the fact that you stopped playing the game back in April. Your forum activity, in contrast, works against you. Everything you do and say demonstrates your decision making and problem solving, which at this point looks incredibly Pineapple.

 

PoE engages more decision making opportunities and rewards than many games across many genres, and in its current state it is as reactive as most standard RPG's. It's painfully clear that the real reason you don't enjoy the game is because the developers felt your ideas were bad. Which makes the developers smart and leaves you looking like a Pineapple.

 

Edited November 19, 2015 by Zenbane

[Cyseal]

Will WM part 2 enlit the story progression in POE2  or give some hints about it?

Edited November 19, 2015 by Cyseal

[Valorian]

The game does imply that it takes years for Watchers to go crazy, and what you do spans a few months at best.

 

Regardless, a "No sleep for the Watcher" mode under Expert would be marvellous for people who like strategy elements in RPGs.

After resting 15 times, your character would become partially deranged and unable to recharge per-rest resources (items too!) any longer. Endurance potions would replenish health, but only outside of combat. 

The insanity would intesify every subsequent resting session and increase the chance of companions leaving you for good.

[Sensuki]

It's painfully clear that the real reason you don't enjoy the game is because the developers felt your ideas were bad.

What ideas?

 

Your argument would be less stupid (but no less untrue) if you actually had some idea of what you're talking about.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Sensuki

[Zenbane]

Just because my posts accurately call you out for being bitter and jaded doesn't mean they are "stupid" - you are taking some logical leaps and leaving you brain behind.

 

Your ideas have been quoted and addressed all over this forum. Re-quoting them won't do any good since your goal here is to troll.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Zenbane

[Teioh_White]

 

The game does imply that it takes years for Watchers to go crazy, and what you do spans a few months at best.

 

Regardless, a "No sleep for the Watcher" mode under Expert would be marvellous for people who like strategy elements in RPGs.

After resting 15 times, your character would become partially deranged and unable to recharge per-rest resources (items too!) any longer. Endurance potions would replenish health, but only outside of combat. 

The insanity would intesify every subsequent resting session and increase the chance of companions leaving you for good.

 

 

I...would actually really like that. Would be interesting, also turning companions into a 'resource' of sorts. They could have different levels of...tolerance? For the crazy Watcher. Like, best bro Eder would stick with you through it all, but Pallegina would bail on your crazy arse quickly. Would have to make it so we can't just stash extra's at the camp, and make at a certain 'crazy' level, they won't join you. That'd have to at a lesser value of crazy than they'd leave though.

 

Anyways, it's interesting. As the game goes on, the Watcher has less ability to finish his quest, and must increasingly rely on his companions. While at the same time, his companions are increasingly less willing to stand his insainity, and give him less support. Would make for an interesting idea.

 

But I don't think that much thought was really put into the plot in this game, certainly not with any desire to really sync it up to gameplay.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Teioh_White

[Zenbane]

The Watcher needs to go Insane in a way equal to or greater than what we experience in Wizardry 8:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtI_xw0_yM8

 

 

 

Now THAT is true PC craycray

Edited November 19, 2015 by Zenbane

[AndreaColombo]

While I like the idea of a "No Sleep for the Watcher" mode (it is cool and I've always liked the slogan to boot), I know I would likely not use it. Because powergaming. Eh.

[Mazisky]

I'm afraid that PoE 2 will reboot all that hyper coloured weird architecture of Baldur's Gate 2, i prefere classic environments like BG 1 or POE or Diablo series

Edited November 20, 2015 by Mazisky

[Cyseal]

I'm afraid that PoE 2 will reboot all that hyper coloured weird architecture of Baldur's Gate 2, i prefere classic environments like BG 1 or POE or Diablo series

I acctually like that weird arhitecture in BG2 more that BG. I feels more like a fantasy theme. Like the Underdark level, and Ust Natha in BG2.

Also. BG2 was more non linear and had better level design. I wish that for POE2 (and POE3 )

[JerekKruger]

I thought BG2 had a nice mix of classic fantasy and more alien weirdness. Firkraag's dungeon and the surrounding countryside was about as classic as it gets, as was the Shadow dungeon; but the things like the beholder nest and the planar prison were far weirder.

 

@Cyseal do you mean BG2 was more non linear than BG or than PoE? In some senses of the word, BG was very non-linear as, apart from the inability to enter Baldur's Gate itself until act IV or V (I can't remember exactly) the only thing stopping you going wherever you wanted to was difficulty. BG 2 had a very open ended first (proper) act, but after that was really quite linear. I think PoE is fairly similar to BG2, although because it is overall a smaller game it feels a bit less open ended.

[Cyseal]

@JerekKruger, I meant non-linear level design and variety of styles in BG2: cities, forests, temples, graveyards, underdark, Sahuagin city ...

In BG there were used a lot similar colour palettes to build a level.

 

POE2 should explore dystopian high fantasy theme in my opinion with some key elements for example : flying cities, darker forests, weird ruins and planes, non-archetypical habitats, non-common sanctuaries and environments ...

[Valorian]

 

I...would actually really like that. Would be interesting, also turning companions into a 'resource' of sorts. They could have different levels of...tolerance? For the crazy Watcher. Like, best bro Eder would stick with you through it all, but Pallegina would bail on your crazy arse quickly. Would have to make it so we can't just stash extra's at the camp, and make at a certain 'crazy' level, they won't join you. That'd have to at a lesser value of crazy than they'd leave though.

 

Anyways, it's interesting. As the game goes on, the Watcher has less ability to finish his quest, and must increasingly rely on his companions. While at the same time, his companions are increasingly less willing to stand his insainity, and give him less support. Would make for an interesting idea.

 

But I don't think that much thought was really put into the plot in this game, certainly not with any desire to really sync it up to gameplay.

 

 

Sure, they'd have different levels of intolerance. However, between you and me, I think they'd be reluctant to implement a system that removes companions after one too many resting sessions even on Expert.  So it's either this or a penalty to the Watcher's stats that activates each subsequent resting session after the first 15 and lasts for the next few combat encounters. There needs to be some downside to resting after [char name] has depleted per-rests, otherwise it's 'put rechargeable items on companions and keep recharging everything else as usual' and we have the default resting system again.

 

 

Also, you probably remember the spirit meter from MotB. It's unfortunate that they tied it to the passage of time (standing idle, walking, exploring, taking time to admire the scenery..) instead of tying it to resting. They could've transformed a mere annoyance into strategy.

[Teioh_White]

Yeah, I really doubt Obs, or any team really, would be willing to go through with the whole, 'companions as a resource' thing. Especially if it's taken to it's logical conclusion, where eventually the Watcher would have just Eder hanging around and his stats would have degraded to the point of uselesness, turning the game into some sort of weird Eder Solo Run. Games reaching an unwinable state has fallen out of favor (rightfully so, truthfully).

 

Though it does seem a really innovative approach to the system, and in PoE's case, would've even tied right into the story for extra immersion goodness. I certainly wouldn't want it as a default mode or anything, but it'd be a nice take as part of an 'expert' package or something.

 

I completely agree about MotB. If that was tied into resting or mobs killed or anything other than just real time, it coulda been interesting. As is, it was just extremely annoying. I can't speak for others, but while I love strategic thinking, constantly being pushed by a clock 100% of the time is just turrible.

[Mazisky]

 

I'm afraid that PoE 2 will reboot all that hyper coloured weird architecture of Baldur's Gate 2, i prefere classic environments like BG 1 or POE or Diablo series

I acctually like that weird arhitecture in BG2 more that BG. I feels more like a fantasy theme. Like the Underdark level, and Ust Natha in BG2.

Also. BG2 was more non linear and had better level design. I wish that for POE2 (and POE3 )

 

 

Better level design for sure, but BG felt more medieval while BG2 felt more alien or kinda futuristic sometimes, i prefere those settings for games like Torment, not for PoE, don't wanna  see Psychedelic from Eternity.

 

They could improve enviromental variety by just adding more scenarios like desert, undergrounds, castles, magic woods, seaside while keeping classic setting

Edited November 20, 2015 by Mazisky

[Fenixp]

Yeah, I really doubt Obs, or any team really, would be willing to go through with the whole, 'companions as a resource' thing. Especially if it's taken to it's logical conclusion, where eventually the Watcher would have just Eder hanging around and his stats would have degraded to the point of uselesness, turning the game into some sort of weird Eder Solo Run. Games reaching an unwinable state has fallen out of favor (rightfully so, truthfully).

To do similar experiments, you either need to create a game where loss is not necessarily an undesirable outcome (modern roguelites with overal progression triggering on character death) or change what does it mean to 'win' a game entirely. It would be interesting to see a reverse progression curve where you'd start at max level with all possible skills and abilities unlocked, and instead of leveling up and gaining party members slowly lose your friends and close ones, perhaps romance an NPC just to break up a bit later on account of you getting bat**** insane. So at the end of the game you'd be weak, alone and mostly just fighting yourself. To win would be to survive to see another day. ... ... Holy crap, we need to make a game about aging.

[Lord_Mord]

 

To do similar experiments, you either need to create a game where loss is not necessarily an undesirable outcome (modern roguelites with overal progression triggering on character death) or change what does it mean to 'win' a game entirely. It would be interesting to see a reverse progression curve where you'd start at max level with all possible skills and abilities unlocked, and instead of leveling up and gaining party members slowly lose your friends and close ones, perhaps romance an NPC just to break up a bit later on account of you getting bat**** insane. So at the end of the game you'd be weak, alone and mostly just fighting yourself. To win would be to survive to see another day. ... ... Holy crap, we need to make a game about aging.

 

That is awesome!