Why hatchets?

[Heijoushin]

Not a big deal, but what is the logic behind giving hatchets the +5 deflection bonus? Hatchets are the only weapon with this bonus, and that seems to make hatchets the best possible weapon for any defensive character. This makes me a little sad, since a "hatchet wielding" knight... doesn't sound very cool;)

 

Also... not that I have any hatchet combat experience, but it doesn't strike me as a weapon that would be easy to block with? 

[Zenbane]

Since Hatchets are small and deadly, you can easily redirect attacks; which is more on par with Deflection as opposed to a Parry. The smaller the weapon, the quicker you can respond to enemy attacks: deflection through redirection.

 

Kinda like the difference between blocking a punch with your arms vs using your shoulder to "roll" a punch off.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Zenbane

[Heijoushin]

Since Hatchets are small and deadly, you can easily redirect attacks; which is more on par with Deflection as opposed to a Parry. The smaller the weapon, the quicker you can respond to enemy attacks: deflection through redirection.

 

Kinda like the difference between blocking a punch with your arms vs using your shoulder to "roll" a punch off.

 

Well, if it's a case of "small & deadly", then they could have also given an off-hand dagger (or any small weapon) a small defensive bonus. Isn't rapier & dagger a standard historical combination for that reason? Stab with rapier, defend with dagger. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by Heijoushin

[Njall]

Just game balance, really. Hatchets are tools, not weapons, I suppose the devs needed to add some kind of benefit to make them appealing and diverse.

[wanderon]

Why hatchets?

 

Molly insisted...

[Zenbane]

lol, well Hatchets are easier to use as a deflection tool due to their physical mechanic. As opposed to a thin/smooth blade. As someone pointed out, Hatchets function as tools, not just a combat weapon. That Utility would explain the additional bonus. Small bladed weapons are not really tools. Sure someone could argue using a Dagger as a paper-cutter thus making it a tool, but you can literally find Hatchets at your local Home Depot; there aint no daggers in that isle lol

Edited November 5, 2015 by Zenbane

[Cantousent]

Most weapons evolved from utility outside of combat and that utility tends to predate its use as a weapon. Spears were for hunting. Axes for chopping wood. Pole arms for pruning trees, especially in orchards and the like. Even daggers have utility outside of combat. Hell, while I don't carry a 'dagger' on hikes, you can rest assured I take a more or less equivalent length knife with me and, like folks throughout the centuries, I find having a relatively short, sharp blade quite useful. I don't deny that sometimes those weapons looked wildly different from the original functional tools, but they still reflect their history. Take swords and battle axes. Hell, take some of the crazy assed pole arms from the so called middle ages.

 

As far as why the hatchet carries a deflection bonus, that's a good question. Njall had a pretty good point about game balance, although I would contend that tomahawks are quite marshal in nature. A hatchet tends to be a term that we use for the tool, and I would agree that the game tends to emphasize the utility aspect in the description, but they're basically small battle axes.

 

...But all this sounds kind of argumentative as I read over it, and that's not my intention. I'm also curious myself if it's just balance or if there's some historical basis for the deflection attribute. Maybe it's like our Zenbane friend here says and it has to do more with it's speed and construct being more useful for 'deflection' or some such, although I'm sure I understood that completely. Not uncommon as I get older, I'm afraid. :Cant's sheepish grin icon:

[Parasol_Syndicate]

Almost becomes a self fulfilling prophecy, because anyone armed with only hatchets is going to very careful in a fight. 

[aweigh0101]

devs hatched an idea about it

[Cantousent]

You know, I should probably warn you for being a relentless jokester, aweigh, but I have to admit that I tend to find you damned funny. 'hatched an idea.' What a doofus.

 

On a more serious note, I did a search to see if maybe there was some reason given in the wiki and around, but no dice. Maybe there is and I'm just not seeing it. Considering Sawyers penchant for history and weapon depiction, it wouldn't surprise me if there is some sort of logical basis for it. After all, there are plenty of weapons besides hatchets, so they didn't *have* to put them in. Anyhow, I think of them more as tomahawks.

[Nonek]

Not a big deal, but what is the logic behind giving hatchets the +5 deflection bonus? Hatchets are the only weapon with this bonus, and that seems to make hatchets the best possible weapon for any defensive character. This makes me a little sad, since a "hatchet wielding" knight... doesn't sound very cool;)

 

Also... not that I have any hatchet combat experience, but it doesn't strike me as a weapon that would be easy to block with? 

 

A Main Gauche would seem to be a far more logical weapon for that bonus, and fitting for the period, haven't seen one referenced in a game in quite a few years however. As you say though a Rapier would be even more suitable, a fearsomely long blade, a solid guard and both light and maneuverable. The perfect single combat weapon really, i'd take that over virtually any other implement.

[Teioh_White]

Rapier does seem more fitting than a hatchet, but I won't profess any martial knowledge that a Rapier in actual combat would make it easier to parry an attack than some other weapon. It'd also be nice, as daggers and clubs already have the 'accurate' trait. (yes yes, I know all 3 cover different damage types, but I'd prefer a bit more difference than just that).

 

Not sure what would take hatchet's new trait would be, I guess could change dagger's damage type to pierce, and then put the old accurate trait on hatchet, but that's by far the most boring solution. (As it'd just be a slight change on what we have now).

[Elerond]

Rapier is excellent in attacking but it isn't any more effective in defending oneself than any other one handed sword, although it long blade gives one edge over shorter edged swords in duel. But there is reason why rapier fencing schools teach used in their teaching also buckler or defensive dagger.

 

Deflection bonus for hatchet isn't necessary most simulative gameplay bonus, but there are some merits that hatchets have that could be argued to give such benefits. Like for example like all axes they have heavy head so it is relatively easy to force more equally balanced weapons off from their course. Fighting hatchets most likely look more like combat tomahawks or boarding axes (which as we now know them are more military/combat oriented variants of typical hatchet [which is one handed axe with head that has cutting blade and hammer head, which actually covers quite broad variation of different kinds of axes]). And from that we get to fighting hatchets in Eora, that probably have long and narrow cutting blade that wides towards cutting edge like typical tomahawk or possible bearded axe and it also has longer hammer head to balance the head with possible sword breakers, which would make it excellent weapon to bind opponent's weapon, but same time giving some options to make counter attacks.

 

So we could say that hatchets in Eora have such defensive design that isn't common in our world but don't make them less possible to exist than for example those small sword like rapiers that people insist to use instead of much more heavier variants that were common in our world. And so on.

[Crucis]

I'd think that a parrying dagger or "main gauche" would be a more appropriate weapon to have a deflection bonus than a friggin' hatchet, of all things.

 

And for that matter, how about getting some 2-handed great axes and hammers into the game?  They're common fodder for fantasy games.  It just looks wrong not having a bad arse dwarf wielding a great axe or 2H hammer in a game like this. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by Crucis

[Zenbane]

I'd like to see you use a Dagger to Parry a Sword sometime, Crucis. Please post that video lol

[Valorian]

Parrying dagger, I endorse you. 

[Elerond]

I'd like to see you use a Dagger to Parry a Sword sometime, Crucis. Please post that video lol

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9VGPJhHHAM

 

Parrying sword with dagger and one hand sword is quite similar because you can't/shouldn't use point end of sword to block because there is high change that your sword will give up (as your wrist needs to endure usually too much force which is why it you should try to block as near guard as you can) and you will get hit or at least your opponent has much easier time to bind your sword.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI-zSSoiWvk

Edited November 6, 2015 by Elerond

[aweigh0101]

vikings used short swords/daggers with hatchets, twas quite common. i'm sure many many others did too. reason is very simple: 

the medieval (for lack of an exact term/period) hatchet, or hooking-axe, or sometimes referred to as the "spade" was used to swing and embed it in the enemy's wooden shields, wooden bucklers so as to pull with force and either 1) disarm them of the shield and/or 2) pull them off kilter and towards the incoming dagger stab. oldest tactic in the book.

the "hatchet" was also used defensively by forming a crossguard on the main-hand weapon, usually a mace, a dagger of some sort, a short spear (spear + hatchet is absolutlely glorious in terms of sheer versatility of options for disarming / controlling space / nullifying opponent options) or whatever. longswords weren't really that common, "arming swords", whatever. those swords were completely useless against a kitted and armored teutonic knight, for example. instead they would leave the arming sword with the horse and use either a mace/morningstar (beautiful for beating armored opponent as the blows dent and produce shockwaves in the metal that lead to massive concussions) with a hatchet-type "axe" or a second mace in the off-hand.

one other thing i remember from some texts was also they liked to use hatchets specifically against poorly made linked-chain ests, these "hatchets" were more reminiscent of a spiked hook tho, and not really the same thing as the PoE hatchets.

EDIT: while the above videos were very enjoyable i have to say that in all honesty the combination of sword and dagger-types is almost entirely a Modern invention. in the melee there is almost zero practical use for this combination, as 1) sword is useless in a melee unless it is one similar to the gladius to be used for specific forms of stabbing in combination with their shield or a spear in the off-hand and 2) swords and daggers will not help deflect or block or parry a mace swing. maces and axes were the real bread and butter of the french, german and english medieval melee. and spears of course, those are.. probably the best most versatile weapon ever made. a stick with a pointy end. its uses and applications in the hands of a master are infinite.

versus these sword and dagger dudes a french soldier, let'smake him a deserter for extra trauma drama he'd be rocking almost certainly a club or a mace, and a hatchet. first thing he would do to the sword and dagger guy is... knock him out with a 100% lethal slingshot of rock. ok, ok, i'll play along (even tho that is exatly what would happen) he'd just wait for the sword guy to swing and catch a backswing or a ripost with either his mace or use the hatchet in a reverse hook swing. simply put the sword/dagger guy would lose the instant he attempts to deflect or parry either one of the swings, the hatchet swing or the club swing. both of those would get the better of the exchange and poor sword guy would have to say GG.

of course, this is all imaginary fantasizing, obviously either one could win this dumb duel. oh last thing carrying around sword an dagger would definitely mark you for getting jumped these objects were pricey.

Edited November 6, 2015 by aweigh0101

[Jarmo]

There's certainly no reason to be found outside the game.

Most likely some kind of game-balancing-gimmick-whoaa-thing.

[Elerond]

If you mean by modern 16th century, then yes rapier and dagger style is modern, but if you mean that it invented in 1900+ then you should look actual rapier fighting manuals and other sources from 16th century which actually show and tell that such style was used and it was common within civilians (and as second video tells they were nearly non-existent combination on battlefields). Second video is actually made by person that who has schooled in historical European martial arts.

 

Also vikings and teutonic knights didn't really fight as viking era ended about 100 years before foundation of Teutonic Order.

 

It should also noted that swords which we call longswords, didn't come to use until 14th century, so it is quite true that they weren't common weapon during viking era.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Elerond

[djphong]

 

Courtesy of History Channel

Here's a great scene of Hatchet in action

Edited November 6, 2015 by djphong

[Heijoushin]

So far, the arguments we've got:

 

1. It's small and fast (so are many other things)

2. It's a tool not a weapon, therefore it has utility, therefore it can block (what?)

3. The head is heavy, so it can move other weapons off course. (Hmmm... maybe..?)

4. Someone mentioned "hooking axes". Another person mentioned tomahawks. This sounds plausible, except that the in-game art is a pretty boring tree cutting kind of hatchet. 

5. Game balance. Nuff said. 

 

I'm not very convinced, but thanks for all the opinions!

Edited November 6, 2015 by Heijoushin

[Cantousent]

I don't know about anyone else, but I was never trying to convince you, Heijoushin. The problem is, no one seems to have a purely logical reason for why the hatchet has a deflection value. There might not be one. Unless and until one of the devs comes in to give a more or less official answer, speculation will be all we have. ...But I don't think anyone means disrespect. We're just discussing the issue that you broached.

 

My point about the utility of the hatchet wasn't that it started out as a tool and therefore could block. Rather, it was from the angle that, just because it serves as a tool does not mean that it doesn't function very well as a weapon and could *not* block. The relationship between utility and blocking wasn't causal. It might have utility as a tool but nevertheless have utility as a weapon and one such utility *might* be deflection, but I don't know.

 

At any rate, I gladly give opinions. All the time. I don't know that they mean much, but I seem to have a bag of infinite holding that contains nothing but personal opinions. :Cant's wry grin icon:

[aweigh0101]

you know... one-handed battle-axes (modern terminology for this weapon, but watever) when used by a trained axe man were even more effective than a "hatchet" or any sort of hook/axe in parrying, disabling, catching and hooking. the butt of the battle-axe (this includes inumerable variants, being simplistic here) was also used as an offensive poke and also as a defensive backswing. this is... like, factual man.

shouldn't the PoE axes then also a deflection modifier? i assume a nice +10 since they're bigger and shinier.

hmm sounds like patch undocumented nerfing to me!

[Silent Winter]

.... a "hatchet wielding" knight... doesn't sound very cool;)

actually that sounds really cool - I can see it now: "Sir Hatchetsalot of the Forest"  Right, that's my next character