Final boss too easy for a full party?

[hugeheadliang]

Potd, high level, still won the fight easily. Compared to adra dragon who wiped my whole party with a single breath..  (1 lv12+ 5lv11 at arda fight, 6 lv13 at final boss)

btw, is there any ways to lure the xaurips around the adra dragon separately? I could kill those tree men first, but the dragon always came after the xaurips..

Edited October 15, 2015 by hugeheadliang

[gkathellar]

Well, you are level 13, and the final boss was originally supposed to be doable at level 10 or so. That's a pretty big factor.

[Vorad]

Perhaps the design of the final battle as well is to blame, there are only 2 "adds" that's not much for a "tank" to take care of. Also the fact that many of the high end boses are not immune to cc makes these fights more easy. Higher resistances, DR, more immunities either to elements or type of damage etc we need more of these things. A solution for the player would be to either go there with an under level party but most of us don't really like that since we want to reach the maximum potential of the character or go there with a poor balanced party without optimizing stats/builds etc again something which most of us won't do since by nature we strive to do "the best we can". So in the end I believe at least for PotD difficulty the bosses should be 1-6 levels higher than the max level allowed for players in this case 15-20 level boss(depending on wether he has adds or not and how many) vs 14 level player with extra unique abilities and more immunities, all this only for PotD of course.

[hilfazer]

 

btw, is there any ways to lure the xaurips around the adra dragon separately? I could kill those tree men first, but the dragon always came after the xaurips..

 

It was possible

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewxtIFixUb8

 

and most likely still is.

[hugeheadliang]

Well, you are level 13, and the final boss was originally supposed to be doable at level 10 or so. That's a pretty big factor.

So the high level option was not added at 2.0? I thought it was for lv13 or lv14 characters..

 

Perhaps the design of the final battle as well is to blame, there are only 2 "adds" that's not much for a "tank" to take care of. Also the fact that many of the high end boses are not immune to cc makes these fights more easy. Higher resistances, DR, more immunities either to elements or type of damage etc we need more of these things. A solution for the player would be to either go there with an under level party but most of us don't really like that since we want to reach the maximum potential of the character or go there with a poor balanced party without optimizing stats/builds etc again something which most of us won't do since by nature we strive to do "the best we can". So in the end I believe at least for PotD difficulty the bosses should be 1-6 levels higher than the max level allowed for players in this case 15-20 level boss(depending on wether he has adds or not and how many) vs 14 level player with extra unique abilities and more immunities, all this only for PotD of course.

Agreed. Bosses should have some resistance to cc, maybe half the duration or something.

 

 

 

btw, is there any ways to lure the xaurips around the adra dragon separately? I could kill those tree men first, but the dragon always came after the xaurips..

 

It was possible

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewxtIFixUb8

 

and most likely still is.

 

ty. will try later

[Tigranes]

The main quest final bosses will generally be weaker than optional endgame fights, because nobody has to fight the Adra Dragon, but everybody is meant to have a shot at defeating Thaos. A casual-er player who doesn't do all the quests and faces Thaos around level 10 with an unoptimised party lacking some of the best loot shouldn't be able to roll over Thaos, but they shouldn't have to go back and grind or something. Or so goes the idea in most modern games hoping to reach more than a few thousand hardcore players.

 

The number of threads in this very forum about how Thaos is 'impossible' to beat testify to this.

[AndreaColombo]

It is possible to scale up the final fight; you should get the option upon jumping the pit. I got it but I was level 14.

 

Would be strange, however, to leave 13th-level characters out of it.

[Vorad]

I don't think there is an issue with casual gamers they can still play the game in easy and have fun. If someone is casual and tries to play in hard/potd then complain about the fight being to hard I believe that's unfair to the game itself since they can always switch to easy. The opposite is not true however and I believe many will agree with me that once you get to grasp the mechanics of the game/system then with an optimized party you can blast your way through any fight in game even at potd difficulty.

The easy/hard mode could stay exactly as they are for casuals, I personally was speaking of the potd which could use some lifting for the players who wish some extra challenge.

[AndreaColombo]

Yes, PotD could use more difficulty but not in the artificial form of inflated stats and added immunities. It should have smarter A.I. and better encounter design imo. That would make for interesting challenges.

[hugeheadliang]

It is possible to scale up the final fight; you should get the option upon jumping the pit. I got it but I was level 14.

 

Would be strange, however, to leave 13th-level characters out of it.

I already chose "high level", the encounter was still not challenging at all..

[Klice]

Maybe I'm not that good at meta gaming or at all, I didn't find him THAT easy (hard + expert). Even though I didn't had a perfect strategy, it did took me 4 hours of trying to get him finally (with the tank dying right at the end, grumble).

 

So, how are you doing to find the boss so easy ? Lots of exploit ? Optimisation to the death ?

[Luma Akasha]

MO, it's like this:

 

 

 

[insert psychology stuff] The interaction of the seek circuit and the reward circuit in the brain causes humans to feel a form of euphoria when they successfully accomplish a physical or mental challenge. That is hard to simulate in a video game. The physical challenge is almost non-existent and the mental challenge is usually just a slight twist on the same tactics that you've been applying for the last 50 hrs of game play.

 

 

 

You do get a little of this in MMOs, because the physical challenge is a bit more (recall that release of tension you feel after downing the latest expansion's big bad the first couple of times) and the mental focus is greater since lack of attention can cause the oops that one-shots the raid of 10 - 72 people that you are working with (depending on the game.)

 

 

 

Single player games, particularly non-twitch games like rpgs, tend to be at most a touch tactical: pause-think-give orders-unpause, repeat. So most people will say that a fight is too hard until they figure it out at which point they will say it is too easy. This is more pronounced the more of an adrenaline junkie the player is.[/end psychology stuff]

 

 

 

The long and the short of it is that in single player games, people will tend to feel that it starts hard and becomes easier for the most part, barring the occasional fight. The better sense a person has of the game mechanics, the faster it will get easier for them. So few games have truly revolutionary mechanics, that simply having played a lot of games will make it almost instinctively easy.

 

 

 

In that particular fight, a decently built tank and/or a little CC goes a long way. Tank built Eder is practically indestructible, cc built Aloth/GM/Hiravias let you wiz right through, Durance can make your party crazy durable, and Sagani with pet talent investment and stormcaller is just ridiculously op. I haven't tried to build an Pallegina as a tank and Kana makes me sad (summons & invocations take too long to develop) although he does have a few really good songs.

[rjshae]

Making the final boss battle the toughest of the game is overly stereotyped anyway. I think it's more important to make the player feel satisfied with the outcome.

[AndreaColombo]

I haven't tried to build Pallegina as a tank and Kana will be as quiet as a calm sea. Which is not very quiet.

 

Fixed

Edited October 14, 2015 by AndreaColombo

[Luma Akasha]

 

I haven't tried to build Pallegina as a tank and Kana will be as quiet as a calm sea. Which is not very quiet.

 

 

Fixed

/readies smacking hand

 

I'm looking at you, AndreaColombo!

 

/glare

[Oralaina]

*giggles at Luma and Andrea*....

[Vorad]

 

So, how are you doing to find the boss so easy ? Lots of exploit ? Optimisation to the death ?

There are many threads already explaining tactics for the "hard" encounters not all of them involve "lots of exploit". Actually exploiting is not even necessary if you start the encounter at the appropriate level. Neither "optimization to death" is necessary", any party can work. All you need to do is cast a single aoe prone/stun/paralysis and it's gg from then on. This can be achieved with any kind of party and before people say "casters OP", just 1-2 scrolls of paralysis on any of your toons are more than enough. While this should be acceptable in easy difficulty since easy should be for everyone... I really believe that in potd mode the cc which can easily win you the fight should be toned down a bit.

[mosspit]

 

 

So, how are you doing to find the boss so easy ? Lots of exploit ? Optimisation to the death ?

There are many threads already explaining tactics for the "hard" encounters not all of them involve "lots of exploit". Actually exploiting is not even necessary if you start the encounter at the appropriate level. Neither "optimization to death" is necessary", any party can work. All you need to do is cast a single aoe prone/stun/paralysis and it's gg from then on. This can be achieved with any kind of party and before people say "casters OP", just 1-2 scrolls of paralysis on any of your toons are more than enough. While this should be acceptable in easy difficulty since easy should be for everyone... I really believe that in potd mode the cc which can easily win you the fight should be toned down a bit.

 

 

In the event where CC is toned down or bosses gaining immunity, what do you suggest can be done to succeed? "Super" bosses already have inflated stats and saves, high HP and high dmg. CC scrolls still need to overcome their high saves in order to take effect.

[daver]

Making the final boss battle the toughest of the game is overly stereotyped anyway. I think it's more important to make the player feel satisfied with the outcome.

 

Amen.  The most important part of a good rpg is the satisfaction of the story being complete.  The satisfaction of the player being able to say, " yes, these were the choices I made and this is how my story ended."  The ending is not so much about how difficult that final boss is, but how all loose ends are tied up (except those threads left loose that lead to an expansion or the next game in a series), and the player feels some satisfaction, some closure, of the hundreds of hours spent completing the story.  I don't mind at all difficult battles, but that shouldn't be the soul focus of that final encounter.

 

The final that sticks in my mind is that of Planescape Torment.  I had a charisma of 10, and was able to save my companions without a fight.  That wasn't my only option, just the one that I took.  And I felt good about it.