The current refugee wave in Europe

213374U · October 8, 2015

I guess they should just take the women and kids and tell the men to hike it back home

What happens when the men are already at home, though? Couldn't find data on Germany (wonder what's up with that), but it's not like women being murdered by men is exactly a new thing here.

Ah, wait. I remember now. Honor killings are absolutely more abhorrent than honor-less killings because <reasons>. *nods sagely*

Btw, remember when police could "guarantee security"? Yeah... me neither.

Malcador · October 8, 2015

What happens when the men are already at home, though? Couldn't find data on Germany (wonder what's up with that), but it's not like women being murdered by men is exactly a new thing here.

Ah, wait. I remember now. Honor killings are absolutely more abhorrent than honor-less killings because <reasons>. *nods sagely*

Btw, remember when police could "guarantee security"? Yeah... me neither.

I suppose they are more abhorrent due to blood killing blood after coldly coming to that conclusion for nebulous concepts. Is a bit more vile than flipping out and killing your son in a rage, but not much. Killing is killing, but blow away a 9 year old and a 30 year old and people react differently (some drunk killed 3 kids here in Toronto, there is a Jihad on him now, for example).

BruceVC · October 8, 2015

I guess they should just take the women and kids and tell the men to hike it back home

What happens when the men are already at home, though? Couldn't find data on Germany (wonder what's up with that), but it's not like women being murdered by men is exactly a new thing here.

Ah, wait. I remember now. Honor killings are absolutely more abhorrent than honor-less killings because <reasons>. *nods sagely*

Btw, remember when police could "guarantee security"? Yeah... me neither.

Please don't tell me this is your way of saying " lets not be too concerned with honor killings because there is already systemic violence against women in Western countries " ..........

That would be a sad and egregious point to make :blink:

Ineth · October 8, 2015

Ah, wait. I remember now. Honor killings are absolutely more abhorrent than honor-less killings because <reasons>. *nods sagely*

I agree with the rest of your post, but this strikes me as a strange thing to deny.

Yes, when all the people whom you trust and depend on the most conspire to murder you for your "crime" of being a rape victim, that is definitely more abhorrent than most other common scenarios of someone being killed.

There are good reasons why the justice system recognizes many degrees of malice (from involuntary manslaughter to first-degree murder) and considers extenuating and aggravating circumstances on top of that. Killing is bad, but there are many shades of bad.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Ineth

213374U · October 8, 2015

I suppose they are more abhorrent due to blood killing blood after coldly coming to that conclusion for nebulous concepts. Is a bit more vile than flipping out and killing your son in a rage, but not much. Killing is killing, but blow away a 9 year old and a 30 year old and people react differently (some drunk killed 3 kids here in Toronto, there is a Jihad on him now, for example).

No, I don't see how it is. If purposefully killing outside of immediate self-defense is unacceptable, blood ties cannot make it worse, as "unacceptable" is an absolute. You are making an emotional argument, not a rational one.

Killing is killing, as you say. People reacting differently is precisely why we have courts and laws to decide on this sort of thing coldly, instead of letting it be handled by angry mobs with torches and pitchforks.

Yes, when all the people whom you trust and depend on the most conspire to murder you for your "crime" of being a rape victim, that is definitely more abhorrent than most other common scenarios of someone being killed.

There are good reasons why the justice system recognizes many degrees of malice (from involuntary manslaughter to first-degree murder) and considers extenuating and aggravating circumstances on top of that. Killing is bad, but there are many shades of bad.

I don't know how it works in the US, but my understanding is that aggravating circumstances work roughly as follows:

a) whether there is premeditation of some sort (separating manslaughter from murder, mens rea)

b) whether the means are chosen deliberately so the victim cannot possibly defend themselves (i.e. using a gun or a bomb, running them over with a car or poisoning, thanks Mr. White)

c) whether abuse of superiority is involved (i.e. a parent killing a child, a cop killing a suspect in custody etc.)

Blood ties are a essentially a non-factor with regards to the gravity of the killing itself, unless the victim had a dependence relationship that was exploited by the killer(s). This doesn't seem to be the case here as she was standing on her own two feet. If she really depended on her family, then you are right, but that is already accounted for as an aggravating circumstance, which makes the case being a "honor killing" just an anecdote of shock value only because we are used to "other" sorts of killings around these parts.

Edited October 8, 2015 by 213374U

Malcador · October 8, 2015

No, I don't see how it is. If purposefully killing outside of immediate self-defense is unacceptable, blood ties cannot make it worse, as "unacceptable" is an absolute. You are making an emotional argument, not a rational one.

Killing is killing, as you say. People reacting differently is precisely why we have courts and laws to decide on this sort of thing coldly, instead of letting it be handled by angry mobs with torches and pitchforks.

Well something being abhorrent is an emotional response. Nothing wrong with people think mothers or brothers who kill their siblings or daughters are the worst kind of scumbag. But yes, the law should hammer them the same way it would some one who planned a murder of the guy who keeps listening to Faith No More next door.

Revenge certainly feels good, but is bad for society overall.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Malcador

Drowsy Emperor · October 10, 2015

With all due respect Hurlshot, you do not have the actual experience of living with Islam. The number of muslims in the states is still statistically insignificant and do not pose much of a threat. In Europe that is not the case.

I will definitely concede that point to you, it is hard to imagine what type of impact this surge of immigration and refugees can have on a country. I am definitely speaking as an outsider on this, and I appreciate your perspective.

My main point isn't that this isn't a dramatic issue for Europe, but that I believe it has less to do with the religion of Islam, and more to do with culture clashes and human nature. We can look at numerous situations throughout history in comparison where Islam was not in the picture, and yet the issues all look very similar.

But Drowsy you also don't really have experience living with Islam, what is the total percentage of Muslims in Serbia ...4 %, 5 % ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Serbia

You could only argue the whole " I have experience living with Muslims " if you grew up in a Muslim country or lived predominantly in the Muslim section of a city which I doubt you did either of those two things

And I'm same as are most people on these forums

Bruce,

you forget that at some point there was a country called Jugoslavia and forgot the story of two Balkan domestic conflicts (first, the one which dismantled Jugoslavia and second that ripped Kosovo away from Serbia). When you look at that 5% now, it may seem insignificant, but did you tie it to geographical distribution? Perhaps he lives in a part where muslim populace is a majority? Perhaps he was living in Serbian Kosovo before the changes?

Perhaps learn the region's history and ask questions first before undermining his position? Would you like if people would assume odd things about you, because they are misinformed about history of SA?

The Ottoman empire occupied and ruled Serbia from 1459-1817. The reality of living under Islam, the wars that preceeded it and the subsequent rebellion by which independence was won is basic history and a part of the national identity for anyone who grew up in Serbia. A lot of it still lingers to this day, from mundane things like turkish words to a tower built of the heads of those who participated in said rebellion. Getting rid of that influence took centuries and a lot of bloodshed. It is probably a blessing that the Ottomans were more interested in ruling and imperialism rather than the rabid luddite Islamism that KSA backs today, otherwise we probably wouldn't exist.

It is true that in modern times and after the breakup of Yugoslavia the number of muslims is low and that Serbia is not an attractive target for immigration - which means the number stays low. Nevertheless there are creeping threats from wahhabism in the south, the albanians that have aligned themselves with KSA and bosnian muslims seeking to assimilate the serbian half of bosnia and remove its constitutional powers and only a complete and utter idiot would want to help exacerbate the problem by being in favor of any sort of muslim immigration in Serbia or anywhere in Europe.

In fact, after the various terrorist attacks in Europe only a complete idiot would accept any immigration to any EU state from any muslim state when the world is full of poor and uneducated people from friendlier cultural contexts seeking to immigrate, but then, we have already established that idiots reign supreme in Brussels so that's nothing new.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

Darkpriest · October 13, 2015

I have a feeling that some journalist would be really happy if WW3 broke out....

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-step-closer-to-war-uk-pilots-given-green-light-to-shoot-down-hostile-russian-jets-in-syria-2015-10

like seriously, how can you not check your information sources first before going public with stuff like that...

On another note, CDU (?) in Bavaria, Germany is getting pissed off at Merkel's policy towards refugees... IIRC there was some talk among local authorities of refusing to allow more refugee entries into that particular "land" in Germany.

majestic · October 13, 2015

I have a feeling that some journalist would be really happy if WW3 broke out....

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-step-closer-to-war-uk-pilots-given-green-light-to-shoot-down-hostile-russian-jets-in-syria-2015-10

like seriously, how can you not check your information sources first before going public with stuff like that...

On another note, CDU (?) in Bavaria, Germany is getting pissed off at Merkel's policy towards refugees... IIRC there was some talk among local authorities of refusing to allow more refugee entries into that particular "land" in Germany.

Nah, the CDU isn't politically active in Bavaria, that would be the CSU - not that it really makes any difference. Technically they're different parties, but the CDU stays out of Bavaria and the CSU supports them on a federal level in return. They might as well be siamese twins as they're all but interchangeable.

Zoraptor · October 13, 2015

I have a feeling that some journalist would be really happy if WW3 broke out....

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-step-closer-to-war-uk-pilots-given-green-light-to-shoot-down-hostile-russian-jets-in-syria-2015-10

like seriously, how can you not check your information sources first before going public with stuff like that...

Especially since British jets aren't even supposed to be/ legally allowed to be flying in Syria after their- rather well publicised- parliamentary vote not to allow it during the 'red line' débâcle, that really should have been an indicator that the Sunday Times report was a load of old bollocks no matter how 'respected' (L0LMurdochLies) the Sunday Times theoretically is.

Pretty par for the course though, the quality of reporting on Syria is almost uniformly abysmal, despite Lavrov et alia saying that they would bomb all 'terrorists' just about everyone is still saying that Russia claims to be only attacking ISIS.

Darkpriest · October 14, 2015

Dresden, Germany - PEGIDA demonstration

cirdanx · October 14, 2015

I guess they should just take the women and kids and tell the men to hike it back home

What happens when the men are already at home, though? Couldn't find data on Germany (wonder what's up with that), but it's not like women being murdered by men is exactly a new thing here.

Ah, wait. I remember now. Honor killings are absolutely more abhorrent than honor-less killings because <reasons>. *nods sagely*

Btw, remember when police could "guarantee security"? Yeah... me neither.

It happened yes. So called "honor killings" where the susbects have argued that it´s fine and right in their believe, got treated as murder anyway because it´s law. One of the latest...some years ago in Austria...got 20 years and got shoved into a psychiatric clinc...because no one believed that it´s normal to even believe that ****.

In Germany it should work the same...however it´s a far bigger country, it happens more often. There is even a whole site dedicated to this thematic (only in german sadly) which shows cases that get swept under the rug. But i don´t know how valid these are. However, several cases are presented every year.

Darkpriest · October 16, 2015

So Hungary now closed its border with Croatia

Darkpriest · October 18, 2015

Well, it seems Russians started to clean up ISIS as well.

http://news.yahoo.com/air-strikes-convoy-syria-kill-40-monitor-191708956.html

Malcador · October 19, 2015

Drowsy Emperor · October 24, 2015

I found this video very interesting, and the topics go much further than what the title would suggest.

Ex-Al Qaeda from soviet invasion of afghanistan period talks about Al Qaeda today, Syria, ISIS, Saudis...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weiRHwsOq2U

Blarghagh · October 24, 2015

That title is funny because isn't that what Al-Queida started as?

Darkpriest · October 25, 2015

Meanwhile it seems that in countries like Germany and Sweden there are more people showing their discontent via increasing violence towards immigrants or outright setting on fire facilities for "refugees".

Meshugger · October 25, 2015

Polandball has all the answers: http://imgur.com/r/polandball/oIybKuo

Drowsy Emperor · October 25, 2015

That title is funny because isn't that what Al-Queida started as?

Yes, and he doesn't hide that fact. He used to be a jihadi, until he ended up in jail and subsequently changed his mind and turned to more political waters.

Regardless, he paints a pretty damning picture of everyone, from the Saudis to the US, ISIS, the so called syrian opposition etc.

BruceVC · October 25, 2015

I found this video very interesting, and the topics go much further than what the title would suggest.

Ex-Al Qaeda from soviet invasion of afghanistan period talks about Al Qaeda today, Syria, ISIS, Saudis...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weiRHwsOq2U

i am going to watch this whole video, which is rare for me to watch any videos because they waste time but since the whole " the CIA is behind ISIS " must be one of the most absurd conspiracy theories ever suggested I want to understand the whole logic

BruceVC · October 25, 2015

That title is funny because isn't that what Al-Queida started as?

Yes, and he doesn't hide that fact. He used to be a jihadi, until he ended up in jail and subsequently changed his mind and turned to more political waters.

Regardless, he paints a pretty damning picture of everyone, from the Saudis to the US, ISIS, the so called syrian opposition etc.

Drowsy I could only stomach about 20 minutes with all the misinformation and comments like "Obama is now a Muslim and thats why he is supporting ISIS "

Please don't tell me you believe what he says in this video ?

Varana · October 25, 2015

Of course he does. It reinforces what he already "knew".

That guy may have had some insight into the inner workings of al-Qaeda, and it's kind of interesting what he has to say about its fall. Although even then, everything he says has to be taken with a truckload of salt. According to him, he was kind of the central figure of al-Qaeda and the only one who had any deeper knowledge about religion, and they don't kill him for being a defector because he's such a legend in their ranks. No comment necessary.

It is also quite clear that while he might have been quite high-ranking when al-Qaeda was in Afghanistan, he has no insider knowledge about ISIS whatsoever. His insistence on ISIS being an American creation is based on vague allegations, lies, and hearsay. The presenter tries to get some information out of him but fails. His accusation that ISIS is American rests on two things - they didn't kill any Americans (obvious bull****), and they didn't attack Israel (had a look at a map recently? also, they're not stupid). Funnily enough, he gives a very good reason why ISIS doesn't, for instance, carry out lots of terror attacks against Israel, America, or others, from their religious own mind-set.

Regarding al-Qaeda, you have to filter his responses heavily, but there's probably some genuine facts in there. As for ISIS, he's been clearly out of the loop for way too long.

Hurlshort · October 25, 2015

I didn't watch the video, 'cause who got time fo' that, but this guy sounds like the Henry Hill of terrorists.

BruceVC · October 25, 2015

Of course he does. It reinforces what he already "knew".

That guy may have had some insight into the inner workings of al-Qaeda, and it's kind of interesting what he has to say about its fall. Although even then, everything he says has to be taken with a truckload of salt. According to him, he was kind of the central figure of al-Qaeda and the only one who had any deeper knowledge about religion, and they don't kill him for being a defector because he's such a legend in their ranks. No comment necessary.

It is also quite clear that while he might have been quite high-ranking when al-Qaeda was in Afghanistan, he has no insider knowledge about ISIS whatsoever. His insistence on ISIS being an American creation is based on vague allegations, lies, and hearsay. The presenter tries to get some information out of him but fails. His accusation that ISIS is American rests on two things - they didn't kill any Americans (obvious bull****), and they didn't attack Israel (had a look at a map recently? also, they're not stupid). Funnily enough, he gives a very good reason why ISIS doesn't, for instance, carry out lots of terror attacks against Israel, America, or others, from their religious own mind-set.

Regarding al-Qaeda, you have to filter his responses heavily, but there's probably some genuine facts in there. As for ISIS, he's been clearly out of the loop for way too long.

Varana I know I keep saying this but its been great having you comment on these forums. Its clear you are well informed and your knowledge of history clearly shows as your comments are always interesting

I am surprised more people aren't giving you some credit for your insights but unfortunately my friend if you joined these forums for adulation you will be sorely disappointed....I joined about 3 years ago and I can count the number of times on one finger people recognised my view on topics like the ME :biggrin:

But at least I give you credit...a few people would even say thats better than no one ? :sorcerer:

There are a few people on these forums who do prefer to believe conspiracy theories like the West was behind the Arab Spring so dont think its you if very few people agree with you

Edited October 25, 2015 by BruceVC

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