[Class Build] The Juggernaut - a heavy armored Monk

[Boeroer]

Yeah - especially if you have high defenses and thick armor it can take some time until you get some wounds. A few cc attacks at the beginning could make fights a lot easier if you lack other CC options.

[hilfazer]

My Juggernaut 3.0 will be skipping Turning Wheel for either Force of Anguish or Stunning Blows. I find the Turning Wheel to be kinda lackluster, especially as I spend my wounds as quickly as I get them.

 

Turning Wheel is a typical Wound Stacker monk feat. Yo are a Wound Spender. It's simply not for you.

[Boeroer]

Depends. Most of the time - when I'm not using thick armor - I get wounds faster than I can spend them with Torment's Reach - and that only costs 1 wound. So you will have 10 attacks with Torment's Reach that get +50%, +45% and so on. Force of Anguish is also cheap. If you like to use it only now and then Turning Wheel could still be good for you.

[Stasis_Sword]

My Juggernaut 3.0 will be skipping Turning Wheel for either Force of Anguish or Stunning Blows. I find the Turning Wheel to be kinda lackluster, especially as I spend my wounds as quickly as I get them. Either option would get me some CC, Stunning Blows is a nice Alpha strike as it doesn't need wounds but Force of Anguish lasts a really long time. Being able to keep a few enemies out of action would be pretty useful. I'm leaning towards going with FoA.

 

I would be interested in seeing your 3.0 build.

 

Quick lash question. If I had 25% fire and 25% lightning that would be 25% fire damage vs 25% fire DR and 25% lightning damage vs 25% lightning DR right? So if stacking was +50% lightning damage vs 25% lightning DR that would make lots of sense (less so if it was again 50% lightning DR).

 

Any recommendations on weapons that work well for monks?

[MaxQuest]

Any recommendations on weapons that work well for monks?

A thing to keep in mind is that Torment's Reach is a full attack.

So equipping two sabres will benefit it greatly. (namely: Resolution, Purgatory, Bittercut).

 

Another approach is to make use of proc effects. Prone from We Toki and stun from Cladhalíath can affect everyone in the cone.

Edited April 1, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Stasis_Sword]

 

Any recommendations on weapons that work well for monks?

A thing to keep in mind is that Torment's Reach is full attack.

So equipping two sabres will benefit it greatly. (namely: Resolution, Purgatory, Bittercut).

 

Another approach is to make use of proc effects. Prone from We Toki and stun from Cladhalíath can affect everyone in the cone.

 

 

I knew that it was a full attack, but I had no idea it was also a carnage cone that could proc effects. That's awesome.

[Boeroer]

Erm... are you sure the cone works like carnage now? Because back in the days it didn't. All the on crit effects would only apply to the initial target. When did that change?

[MaxQuest]

Erm... are you sure the cone works like carnage now? Because back in the days it didn't. All the on crit effects would only apply to the initial target. When did that change?

I don't know when it was changed, since I checked it only once. It was on 3.00 version.

 

But yeah, Torment's Reach attempts to apply on-crit procs to everyone being crit'ed in it's cone. I have mentioned that here.

And here is the screenshot of distant Spore being affected by these effects. 

 

Not to mention that Torment's Reach can hit a distant enemy several times...

Edited April 1, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Oh, that's so cool!

 

I want to build a disabler monk with FoA, Stunning Blows and Skyward Kick next and this is really good news for him.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

Although it still doesn't act completely like carnage (Weakening from Enervating Blows, Dazed from Glittering Gloves and bonus damage from Turning Wheel do apply only to the main target), you gotta check the damage it deals...

 

Also in case you are not aware: link

Edited April 1, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Stasis_Sword]

Although it still doesn't act completely like carnage (Weakening from Enervating Blows, Dazed from Glittering Gloves and bonus damage from Turning Wheel do apply only to the main target), you gotta check the damage it deals...

 

Also in case you are not aware: link

 

So you're saying if I want to use high int to fill the screen with torment's reach I better hurry before it gets fixed? 

[MaxQuest]

^ They might change just the description and leave it be. Aarik wasn't sure himself how it was intended to work

But Torment's Reach will be worth it, even if it won't 'auto-propagate' itself, as long as it hits at least 2-3 targets.

 

-- edit --

In the case of 3 enemies, it would be 2x(1+2) instead of 2x(1+4) hits.

And if we would take those spores, it would result in ~360 dmg instead of 613. Still pretty good.

Edited April 1, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Although it still doesn't act completely like carnage (Weakening from Enervating Blows, Dazed from Glittering Gloves and bonus damage from Turning Wheel do apply only to the main target), you gotta check the damage it deals...

 

Also in case you are not aware: link

Yeah... something's not right in PoE at the moment. Double ACC malus from Savage Attack, Thrust of Tattered Veils procs twice, and now I discovered that Iconic Projection hits multiple times while it passes the enemy/allies. It not only does it's described damage/healing, but a lot more. If the target is big (Spidr Queen, Ogres and the like) they get hit up to 6 times with it. I can't say I saw that in former game versions - prior to 3.0. They screwed up some core mechanic or something.

[Stasis_Sword]

 

Although it still doesn't act completely like carnage (Weakening from Enervating Blows, Dazed from Glittering Gloves and bonus damage from Turning Wheel do apply only to the main target), you gotta check the damage it deals...

 

Also in case you are not aware: link

Yeah... something's not right in PoE at the moment. Double ACC malus from Savage Attack, Thrust of Tattered Veils procs twice, and now I discovered that Iconic Projection hits multiple times while it passes the enemy/allies. It not only does it's described damage/healing, but a lot more. If the target is big (Spidr Queen, Ogres and the like) they get hit up to 6 times with it. I can't say I saw that in former game versions - prior to 3.0. They screwed up some core mechanic or something.

 

 

Sounds a lot like like bore from Borderlands 2. You could get an attack to multiply as it went through multiple hit boxes. Not as extreme, but it sounds similar.

[MaxQuest]

and now I discovered that Iconic Projection hits multiple times while it passes the enemy/allies. It not only does it's described damage/healing, but a lot more. If the target is big[...]

Sounds a lot like like bore from Borderlands 2. You could get an attack to multiply as it went through multiple hit boxes. Not as extreme, but it sounds similar.

If I am not mistaken, there was a similar thing in DA:Inquisition. Some big enemies (e.g. dragonlings) had few special points along their hitbox. If you would cast an AoE spell, it's damage could be multiplied, depending on how many of those points got covered. (in case of dragonling, iirc you could get x2, one point being on head, another on tail start).

 

P.S. Sorry KDubya for slightly derailing the thread

[Reent]

 

Although it still doesn't act completely like carnage (Weakening from Enervating Blows, Dazed from Glittering Gloves and bonus damage from Turning Wheel do apply only to the main target), you gotta check the damage it deals...

 

Also in case you are not aware: link

Yeah... something's not right in PoE at the moment. Double ACC malus from Savage Attack, Thrust of Tattered Veils procs twice, and now I discovered that Iconic Projection hits multiple times while it passes the enemy/allies. It not only does it's described damage/healing, but a lot more. If the target is big (Spidr Queen, Ogres and the like) they get hit up to 6 times with it. I can't say I saw that in former game versions - prior to 3.0. They screwed up some core mechanic or something.

 

I can't say that i never encountered the multi hit bug in earlier versions, because in fact i did encounter it sometimes - however never in my favor, i had quite some death because of it in the endless path.

So at least enemies hitting you too many times isnt new (for me)

[KDubya]

I'm pretty sure that the multiple applications of Torment's Reach and the applying of weapon effects inside the cone is a bug. If not it'd be way over-powered.

 

If this is still active in the current game I'd better hold off on my Juggernaut 3.0 run as it would really skew the results.

 

 

With regards to what weapons to use for a Monk I am a big fan of Fists. They auto update without needing to enchant, they do great base damage, and they are fast speed (something like 20/20 frames compared to 30/30 for average speed weapons). With zero recovery durganized weapons or mythic soulbounds they can be surpassed.

 

If you want to use weapons, works well if you have two Monks - one goes Fists and one uses weapons -, I'd look at dual wielding sabres. They do the highest base damage and will do more with Torment's spam then Fists will. Zahua can do this well as he starts with Torment's Reach at level one.

 

Another option would be as a MC to go two handed weapons and avoid Torment's Reach and instead focus on Force of Anguish and maybe Turning Wheel. Had a thought of a Monk with Durance's crush/fire staff being a jedi staff monk. Turning Wheel would help with any amount of wounds as it would add right to the fire damage. Wouldn't need any other weapon for immunities, maybe work in the ranged fists somewhere.

[Boeroer]

I tried a monk with durance's staff yesterday. Also took Turning Wheel and Lightning Strikes and Scion of Flame. It's OK but not as good as fists with Torment's Reach. One problem is that the game will always choose crush damage if foe's crush and burn DR are the same. Even if you would do more damage with burn damage. So in many encounters in which attacking with burn would be nicer because of Scion of Flame he just hits with crush. You could surpass that with Firebrand, that's burn only - but that's kind of weird on a monk.

Also: quarterstaffs are slow and don't hit much harder than fists. If you want to concentrate on CC, your hits are too slow (for my taste). Using FoA five times in a row feels like eternity compared to fists.

And attacking from the back row is not a great option. How will you get any wounds? It's no fun to always shoot your monk in the back.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Boeroer

[Crucis]

I'm pretty sure that the multiple applications of Torment's Reach and the applying of weapon effects inside the cone is a bug. If not it'd be way over-powered.

 

If this is still active in the current game I'd better hold off on my Juggernaut 3.0 run as it would really skew the results.

 

 

With regards to what weapons to use for a Monk I am a big fan of Fists. They auto update without needing to enchant, they do great base damage, and they are fast speed (something like 20/20 frames compared to 30/30 for average speed weapons). With zero recovery durganized weapons or mythic soulbounds they can be surpassed.

 

If you want to use weapons, works well if you have two Monks - one goes Fists and one uses weapons -, I'd look at dual wielding sabres. They do the highest base damage and will do more with Torment's spam then Fists will. Zahua can do this well as he starts with Torment's Reach at level one.

 

Another option would be as a MC to go two handed weapons and avoid Torment's Reach and instead focus on Force of Anguish and maybe Turning Wheel. Had a thought of a Monk with Durance's crush/fire staff being a jedi staff monk. Turning Wheel would help with any amount of wounds as it would add right to the fire damage. Wouldn't need any other weapon for immunities, maybe work in the ranged fists somewhere.

 

I like using Fast weapons (daggers, rapiers, stilettos, clubs, etc.)  on my monk rather than Average speed weapons, even though they'll have a lower damage range.  It seem to fit in well with a monk's fast attack speed.  Of course, that may be less of a concern with a heavily armored "Juggernaut" monk, since your heavier armor is going to be slowing your monk down quite a bit.

 

And for what little it's worth, the idea of a heavily armored monk using fists seems wrong.  I'll concede that there can be a paradigm where heavily armored monks are possible, but at the same time, those heavily armored monks should probably be using weapons, not fists.  Conceptually speaking, at least.

 

 

 

[Crucis]

I tried a monk with durance's staff yesterday. Also took Turning Wheel and Lightning Strikes and Scion of Flame. It's OK but not as good as fists with Torment's Reach. One problem is that the game will always choose crush damage if foe's crush and burn DR are the same. Even if you would do more damage with burn damage. So in many encounters in which attacking with burn would be nicer because of Scion of Flame he just hits with crush. You could surpass that with Firebrand, that's burn only - but that's kind of weird on a monk.

Also: quarterstaffs are slow and don't hit much harder than fists. If you want to concentrate on CC, your hits are too slow (for my taste). Using FoA five times in a row feels like eternity compared to fists.

And attacking from the back row is not a great option. How will you get any wounds? It's no fun to always shoot your monk in the back.

 

The way that staffs have been implemented in PoE has always galled me.  Staffs just aren't reach weapons.  They're not meant to be held at one end and used like a really long club.  They're meant to be held in around the middle and used as a relatively fast and light, close quarters weapon.

 

Also, it's mildly annoying that there are no really nice mage staffs.  I'm not necessarily thinking that there should have been a mage staff like the Staff of The Magi in BG2.  But it would have been nice if there were some mage staffs that were conceptually similar.

 

And thinking of "reach" weapons, frankly, even pikes seem wrong.  Oh, not because RL pikes weren't capable of having that kind of range or reach, but because I don't think that long "reach" pikes would have ever been particularly useful except by combat formations designed take advantage of massed pikes.  One on one, it seems to me that a 10 foot "spear" would be far too unwieldy to be an effective weapon.  IIRC, there was one or two "reach" weapons in IWD2, but honestly I thought of their reach effect as more of a magical enchantment than a weapon being that long and unwieldy.

 

 

 

 

[JerekKruger]

I think the main weapon I'd consider using with the Monk instead of his fists would be the Blade of the Endless Paths. With a lash and two-handed style its damage will be close to that of max level fists, the DR reduction puts it over the edge and the attack speed enchant means you're not losing out on two weapon style. Perhaps Tidefall as well given how amazing the wounding ability is.

 

And thinking of "reach" weapons, frankly, even pikes seem wrong.  Oh, not because RL pikes weren't capable of having that kind of range or reach, but because I don't think that long "reach" pikes would have ever been particularly useful except by combat formations designed take advantage of massed pikes.  One on one, it seems to me that a 10 foot "spear" would be far too unwieldy to be an effective weapon.  IIRC, there was one or two "reach" weapons in IWD2, but honestly I thought of their reach effect as more of a magical enchantment than a weapon being that long and unwieldy.

 

Indeed, pikes are a formation fighting weapon and would probably be a liability in the type of combat in PoE. At best you'd get one chance to hit your opponent as he closes, but if he parries you he can very quickly make your pike useless. That said, the "pike" in PoE is more like a spear in length, and wielding a spear two-handed, whilst not ideal, can be a decent duelling weapon (the shorter length allows you to use it as a quarterstaff if the enemy closes).

 

At least poleaxes makes sense as is. I've seen some people argue that they should have reach but I think they're getting confused between halberds and poleaxes. Poleaxes were (relatively) short and more of an individual combat weapon whereas halberds were longer and a formation fighting weapon.

[Boeroer]

and the attack speed enchant means you're not losing out on two weapon style.

Well, Dual Wielding itself halves your recovery time, and Two weapon style multiplies this with 1.2. A simple speed enchantment on the BotEP only adds a 1.2 multiplier - so it does not come even close to dual wielding in terms of speed. But the Speed enchant is surely good.

[KDubya]

I tried a monk with durance's staff yesterday. Also took Turning Wheel and Lightning Strikes and Scion of Flame. It's OK but not as good as fists with Torment's Reach. One problem is that the game will always choose crush damage if foe's crush and burn DR are the same. Even if you would do more damage with burn damage. So in many encounters in which attacking with burn would be nicer because of Scion of Flame he just hits with crush. You could surpass that with Firebrand, that's burn only - but that's kind of weird on a monk.

Also: quarterstaffs are slow and don't hit much harder than fists. If you want to concentrate on CC, your hits are too slow (for my taste). Using FoA five times in a row feels like eternity compared to fists.

And attacking from the back row is not a great option. How will you get any wounds? It's no fun to always shoot your monk in the back.

 

Well there goes that plan. I thought if it defaulted to fire damage it'd be nice with Scion of Flames and Turning Wheel.

 

 

 

I think the main weapon I'd consider using with the Monk instead of his fists would be the Blade of the Endless Paths. With a lash and two-handed style its damage will be close to that of max level fists, the DR reduction puts it over the edge and the attack speed enchant means you're not losing out on two weapon style. Perhaps Tidefall as well given how amazing the wounding ability is.

 

And thinking of "reach" weapons, frankly, even pikes seem wrong.  Oh, not because RL pikes weren't capable of having that kind of range or reach, but because I don't think that long "reach" pikes would have ever been particularly useful except by combat formations designed take advantage of massed pikes.  One on one, it seems to me that a 10 foot "spear" would be far too unwieldy to be an effective weapon.  IIRC, there was one or two "reach" weapons in IWD2, but honestly I thought of their reach effect as more of a magical enchantment than a weapon being that long and unwieldy.

 

Indeed, pikes are a formation fighting weapon and would probably be a liability in the type of combat in PoE. At best you'd get one chance to hit your opponent as he closes, but if he parries you he can very quickly make your pike useless. That said, the "pike" in PoE is more like a spear in length, and wielding a spear two-handed, whilst not ideal, can be a decent duelling weapon (the shorter length allows you to use it as a quarterstaff if the enemy closes).

 

At least poleaxes makes sense as is. I've seen some people argue that they should have reach but I think they're getting confused between halberds and poleaxes. Poleaxes were (relatively) short and more of an individual combat weapon whereas halberds were longer and a formation fighting weapon.

 

I've made Zahua into a two hander with TideFall and Greenstone Staff before. It is hampered by his choice of Torment's Reach which is much better with dual wielding. He was still really effective but not optimal. Blade of the Endless Paths would be another good choice for a two hander Monk.

[JerekKruger]

Well, Dual Wielding itself halves your recovery time, and Two weapon style multiplies this with 1.2. A simple speed enchantment on the BotEP only adds a 1.2 multiplier - so it does not come even close to dual wielding in terms of speed. But the Speed enchant is surely good.

 

True, although if you can reach zero recovery (by whatever means) then that half recovery from dual wielding becomes irrelevant.

 

If I understand the way it's calculated correctly, a durgan refined BotEP with Swift Strikes activated is at 27.5% recovery. Throw in another decent speed buff like hastening exhortation and you reach 2.07 recovery which allows you to wear durgan refined padded armour with no recovery. I think a potion of deleterious alacrity of motion will allow you to wear unrefined plate I think.

 

All that said, I might be making a mistake with respect to my calculations and what stacks with what.

 

I've made Zahua into a two hander with TideFall and Greenstone Staff before. It is hampered by his choice of Torment's Reach which is much better with dual wielding. He was still really effective but not optimal. Blade of the Endless Paths would be another good choice for a two hander Monk.

 

The Greenstone staff seems an obvious backup weapon for when your primary damage type doesn't work. The paralysis proc for the monk is actually pretty nice.

[AndreaColombo]

^ I don't think Hastening Exhortation stacks with Swift Strikes, unfortunately.