The current refugee wave in Europe

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Article behind link is in Finnish, as I don't have seen any articles about this in English, so I must use this

http://yle.fi/uutiset/irakilaiset_varoittavat_toisiaan_somessa_alkaa_tulko_suomeen_taalla_on_kauheaa/8320618?ref=leiki-uu

 

Iraqi refugees in Finland have started to advice other refugees that they should not come in Finland or even Europe because even though there is safe life will be much harder and very humiliating. Also it is mentioned that everything is expensive, toilets are unclean, refugee centers give very small portions of food, refugees can't work. Also it is mentioned that some refugees say in social media that they want to return in home.

 

So what do you think isn't our social paradise on Earth that nice (very likely) or do these people just try make their own situation better in future by dissuading their commorades from coming here (or other places in Europe)?

 

Doesn't sound like them being much of refugees if an incoming cold winter and an economic downturn would make them think twice.

 

//edit: They were Iraqis, lol

 

I'm fine if less refugees come to Europe because they think life is hard in the EU...life is harder in the EU than people assume 

 

 

So Elerond and Meshugger if you guys are feeling guilty about Finland creating such a bad impression of the EU....don't feel guilty. People also need to see the negative of the EU that isn't even that severe 

 

 

Finland will create much worse impression in time period from December to February when temperature here is averagely between -10 - -30 degree of Celsius and you see sun only couple hours in day. Culture shock that it causes for people from ME is enormous even when one is prepared to it not to mention people that aren't.

 

Do people have to work if its -30 ?And what public transport, is it operational in this cold ?

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

Article behind link is in Finnish, as I don't have seen any articles about this in English, so I must use this

http://yle.fi/uutiset/irakilaiset_varoittavat_toisiaan_somessa_alkaa_tulko_suomeen_taalla_on_kauheaa/8320618?ref=leiki-uu

 

Iraqi refugees in Finland have started to advice other refugees that they should not come in Finland or even Europe because even though there is safe life will be much harder and very humiliating. Also it is mentioned that everything is expensive, toilets are unclean, refugee centers give very small portions of food, refugees can't work. Also it is mentioned that some refugees say in social media that they want to return in home.

 

So what do you think isn't our social paradise on Earth that nice (very likely) or do these people just try make their own situation better in future by dissuading their commorades from coming here (or other places in Europe)?

 

Doesn't sound like them being much of refugees if an incoming cold winter and an economic downturn would make them think twice.

 

//edit: They were Iraqis, lol

 

I'm fine if less refugees come to Europe because they think life is hard in the EU...life is harder in the EU than people assume 

 

 

So Elerond and Meshugger if you guys are feeling guilty about Finland creating such a bad impression of the EU....don't feel guilty. People also need to see the negative of the EU that isn't even that severe 

 

 

Finland will create much worse impression in time period from December to February when temperature here is averagely between -10 - -30 degree of Celsius and you see sun only couple hours in day. Culture shock that it causes for people from ME is enormous even when one is prepared to it not to mention people that aren't.

 

Do people have to work if its -30 ?And what public transport, is it operational in this cold ?

 

 

-30 don't usually cause any big problems, schools and such start to close when it goes below -40. Public transport will operate if there aren't technical problems like Italian made trains that have problems to work in such temperatures.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

Article behind link is in Finnish, as I don't have seen any articles about this in English, so I must use this

http://yle.fi/uutiset/irakilaiset_varoittavat_toisiaan_somessa_alkaa_tulko_suomeen_taalla_on_kauheaa/8320618?ref=leiki-uu

 

Iraqi refugees in Finland have started to advice other refugees that they should not come in Finland or even Europe because even though there is safe life will be much harder and very humiliating. Also it is mentioned that everything is expensive, toilets are unclean, refugee centers give very small portions of food, refugees can't work. Also it is mentioned that some refugees say in social media that they want to return in home.

 

So what do you think isn't our social paradise on Earth that nice (very likely) or do these people just try make their own situation better in future by dissuading their commorades from coming here (or other places in Europe)?

 

Doesn't sound like them being much of refugees if an incoming cold winter and an economic downturn would make them think twice.

 

//edit: They were Iraqis, lol

 

I'm fine if less refugees come to Europe because they think life is hard in the EU...life is harder in the EU than people assume 

 

 

So Elerond and Meshugger if you guys are feeling guilty about Finland creating such a bad impression of the EU....don't feel guilty. People also need to see the negative of the EU that isn't even that severe 

 

 

Finland will create much worse impression in time period from December to February when temperature here is averagely between -10 - -30 degree of Celsius and you see sun only couple hours in day. Culture shock that it causes for people from ME is enormous even when one is prepared to it not to mention people that aren't.

 

Do people have to work if its -30 ?And what public transport, is it operational in this cold ?

 

 

-30 don't usually cause any big problems, schools and such start to close when it goes below -40. Public transport will operate if there aren't technical problems like Italian made trains that have problems to work in such temperatures.

 

That sounds hectic to me....you must realize I dont think I have ever experienced anything lower than -10. And this is  only from Skiing in Austria...so how cold is your average ski resort?

 

Anyway the thought of -30 terrifies me a little. I am just imagining having to go to work in that cold...going to gym...meeting people at bars, it must be tough at times to motivate yourself 

[Rosveen]

 

 

 

 

Article behind link is in Finnish, as I don't have seen any articles about this in English, so I must use this

http://yle.fi/uutiset/irakilaiset_varoittavat_toisiaan_somessa_alkaa_tulko_suomeen_taalla_on_kauheaa/8320618?ref=leiki-uu

 

Iraqi refugees in Finland have started to advice other refugees that they should not come in Finland or even Europe because even though there is safe life will be much harder and very humiliating. Also it is mentioned that everything is expensive, toilets are unclean, refugee centers give very small portions of food, refugees can't work. Also it is mentioned that some refugees say in social media that they want to return in home.

 

So what do you think isn't our social paradise on Earth that nice (very likely) or do these people just try make their own situation better in future by dissuading their commorades from coming here (or other places in Europe)?

Doesn't sound like them being much of refugees if an incoming cold winter and an economic downturn would make them think twice.

 

//edit: They were Iraqis, lol

I'm fine if less refugees come to Europe because they think life is hard in the EU...life is harder in the EU than people assume

 

 

So Elerond and Meshugger if you guys are feeling guilty about Finland creating such a bad impression of the EU....don't feel guilty. People also need to see the negative of the EU that isn't even that severe

Looking at it globally, life is awesome in the EU. Sure, it isn't perfect, but nowhere is - and how many places have it better? How many of these places can be easily reached by African and Middle-Eastern refugees?

 

That said, there is definitely a cultural and geographical shock involved in this kind of migration. It's no heaven on earth.

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

I'm fine if less refugees come to Europe because they think life is hard in the EU...life is harder in the EU than people assume 

 

 

So Elerond and Meshugger if you guys are feeling guilty about Finland creating such a bad impression of the EU....don't feel guilty. People also need to see the negative of the EU that isn't even that severe

 

Finland will create much worse impression in time period from December to February when temperature here is averagely between -10 - -30 degree of Celsius and you see sun only couple hours in day. Culture shock that it causes for people from ME is enormous even when one is prepared to it not to mention people that aren't.

 

Do people have to work if its -30 ?And what public transport, is it operational in this cold ?

 

 

-30 don't usually cause any big problems, schools and such start to close when it goes below -40. Public transport will operate if there aren't technical problems like Italian made trains that have problems to work in such temperatures.

 

That sounds hectic to me....you must realize I dont think I have ever experienced anything lower than -10. And this is  only from Skiing in Austria...so how cold is your average ski resort?

 

Anyway the thought of -30 terrifies me a little. I am just imagining having to go to work in that cold...going to gym...meeting people at bars, it must be tough at times to motivate yourself 

 

 

I would say that during days temperature is somewhere between -5 - -15 degrees of Celsius on average day in Lapland's resorts and during nights it is probably somewhere -10 - -20 degrees of Celsius. There is usually one to five those  -20 - -30 days during winter and couple that are colder. Past few years winters have been warmer than that, but this year seem to indicate that winter will again be colder.

 

-30 makes it uncomfortable to be outside long periods of time, especially if there is wind, as protecting your face can be tricky, and I would not recommend heavy exercise as breathing such cold air isn't good for your lungs when you take deep breaths. But in warm clothing it isn't problem to be outside even several hours at the time (although I would recommend not try such in first time when you are in such temperature, as you don't know how your body reacts towards such coldness and it can be surprisingly tiring).

Edited September 21, 2015 by Elerond

[Meshugger]

-30 is just a bit inconvenient when it comes to breathing. It feels like your nosehair is about to freeze, but anything else is just people being too dumb to dress properly. The biggest hurdle for refugees is that we do not like to small talk; talking about nothing is simply socially unacceptable and a lot of people will have to learn that the hard way through hearing silence and people giving you the look of "myötähäpeä" (=compassionate shaming, people are sharing the burden of you making a fool of yourself. Think of it being ashamed for your behalf). 

 

So if you hate the cold, the dark from november to march, the silence and people being ashamed on your behalf, get out.

 

Back to topic.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Meshugger

[BruceVC]

-30 is just a bit inconvenient when it comes to breathing. It feels like your nosehair is about to freeze, but anything else is just people being too dumb to dress properly. The biggest hurdle for refugees is that we do not like to small talk; talking about nothing is simply socially unacceptable and a lot of people will have to learn that the hard way through hearing silence and people giving you the look of "myötähäpeä" (=compassionate shaming, people are sharing the burden of you making a fool of yourself. Think of it being ashamed for your behalf). 

 

So if you hate the cold, the dark from november to march, the silence and people being ashamed on your behalf, get out.

 

Back to topic.

Dude are you being serious about that Finnish  dislike of small talk...that doesn't sound very nice. South Africans are very comfortable and enjoy making small talk....I would also battle to live in Finland. I make small talk all the time....but I dont see it as irrelevant as it helps to build a rapport with someone..normally a stranger. And that can be useful   

[Elerond]

 

-30 is just a bit inconvenient when it comes to breathing. It feels like your nosehair is about to freeze, but anything else is just people being too dumb to dress properly. The biggest hurdle for refugees is that we do not like to small talk; talking about nothing is simply socially unacceptable and a lot of people will have to learn that the hard way through hearing silence and people giving you the look of "myötähäpeä" (=compassionate shaming, people are sharing the burden of you making a fool of yourself. Think of it being ashamed for your behalf). 

 

So if you hate the cold, the dark from november to march, the silence and people being ashamed on your behalf, get out.

 

Back to topic.

Dude are you being serious about that Finnish  dislike of small talk...that doesn't sound very nice. South Africans are very comfortable and enjoy making small talk....I would also battle to live in Finland. I make small talk all the time....but I dont see it as irrelevant as it helps to build a rapport with someone..normally a stranger. And that can be useful

Here example how people in my home city will react when you try to small talk with us. Although you can get much more out if you offer couple rounds in bar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4fSiWSphe4

[Bartimaeus]

In my experience, it's not so much the temperature that matters, but rather the wind conditions: air is a terrible, terrible conductor of heat...except when it's moving. I'd rather take -30F (-34C) or maybe even -40F (-40C) with no wind than even 0F (-18C) with even moderate wind conditions.

 

I love the cold...the less sunlight, the better, and I hate small talk. I should move to Scandinavia. Although Scandinavia has really long summer days, too, doesn't it? Stupid Earth tilting and all that.

[BruceVC]

 

 

-30 is just a bit inconvenient when it comes to breathing. It feels like your nosehair is about to freeze, but anything else is just people being too dumb to dress properly. The biggest hurdle for refugees is that we do not like to small talk; talking about nothing is simply socially unacceptable and a lot of people will have to learn that the hard way through hearing silence and people giving you the look of "myötähäpeä" (=compassionate shaming, people are sharing the burden of you making a fool of yourself. Think of it being ashamed for your behalf). 

 

So if you hate the cold, the dark from november to march, the silence and people being ashamed on your behalf, get out.

 

Back to topic.

Dude are you being serious about that Finnish  dislike of small talk...that doesn't sound very nice. South Africans are very comfortable and enjoy making small talk....I would also battle to live in Finland. I make small talk all the time....but I dont see it as irrelevant as it helps to build a rapport with someone..normally a stranger. And that can be useful

Here example how people in my home city will react when you try to small talk with us. Although you can get much more out if you offer couple rounds in bar.

 

 

That video was really really funny

 

And it explains what you mean perfectly reasonably when you say " Finns aren't really into small talk " 

[BruceVC]

In my experience, it's not so much the temperature that matters, but rather the wind conditions: air is a terrible, terrible conductor of heat...except when it's moving. I'd rather take -30F (-34C) or maybe even -40F (-40C) with no wind than even 0F (-18C) with even moderate wind conditions.

 

I love the cold...the less sunlight, the better, and I hate small talk. I should move to Scandinavia. Although Scandinavia has really long summer days, too, doesn't it? Stupid Earth tilting and all that.

Sorry but I find it hard to believe any of you guys hate small talk.,...you guys engage in small talk basically every single day on these forums 

[Gfted1]

I don't mind the cold, I can just layer up. What I hate is the freaking snow. Looks good for five minutes but jacks my commute all to hell. I have a policy where if the weather report calls for 4 or more inches of snow then I just take the day off work.

[Malcador]

Reality becomes more weird than fiction. Remember the guy that got tripped over by the Hungerian TV-woman? It turns out that the Kurdish group PYD is accusing him of being in front and fighting along Al-Nusra (Al-Queda in Syria) against the Kurds. 

http://rudaw.net/NewsDetails.aspx?pageid=159906

Ah, that camera woman had extremist-dar. First he's accused of being a smuggler, now this.

[Meshugger]

Although Scandinavia has really long summer days, too, doesn't it? Stupid Earth tilting and all that.

 

In the north, the sun goes up at 29th of may and goes down on 20th of august. I live way further south where we have only about 21 hours of sunlight during midsummer's eve.

 

http://news.sky.com/story/1551853/sky-finds-handbook-for-eu-bound-migrants

 

Let me guess, it is run on millions of EU tax payers money.

 

//edit: Rumors are flying around that one refugee has been hospitalized with Leprosy. 

Edited September 21, 2015 by Meshugger

[Bartimaeus]

Yeah, see, the long, cold winter nights would be great, but the long summer days would be what drive me to lunacy. Summers in the north U.S. are already too much for me.

 

Sorry but I find it hard to believe any of you guys hate small talk.,...you guys engage in small talk basically every single day on these forums

Face-to-face communication is a very different beast from interface-to-interface communication.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[Malcador]

Sorry but I find it hard to believe any of you guys hate small talk.,...you guys engage in small talk basically every single day on these forums 

Depends, if it's with strangers I'll never see again it's pointless and awkward or they are trying to hold my attention for some nefarious reason.

[Ineth]

It doesn't really matter what type of person Mohammad was, it matters how the vast majority of Muslims see him.  They do not see him as a violent warlord.

 

I think they do, when it comes down to it.

 

They won't use words like "warlord" and "genocide" to refer to it of course, nor focus on it when they call him an example to be followed.

 

But the key points about his life's story as described by the Quran and Hadiths - that he led an army, that he conquered nations and subjugated nonbelievers, that he used various forms of violence to punish those who "deserved" it - that's not really contested among moderate Muslims, is it?

 

You're right that it "doesn't really matter what type of person Mohammad was" according to actual historians. But it very much matters what Islam's own holy texts have to say about the matter, and how Islams highest religious institutions (e.g. the Al-Azhar University in Cairo in the case of Sunni Islam) interpret it.

 

---

On a side note:

The same goes for Judaism and Moses, who was also a warlord. But the difference is that unlike Islam's Muhammad and Christianity's Jesus, Moses is not portrayed as a super-human being in Judaism, nor a "perfect example to be followed" - he is portrayed as a normal man who served god in some ways but screwed up in others, and religious Jews are taught to learn from his life both things to do and things not to do.

Whereas Jesus and Muhammad (according to their respective religions) left earth by "ascending" into heaven to sit next to God, Moses died a normal death (before he reached his goals, no less, as a punishment from god) and was buried somewhere in the desert.

 

So that's why I kind of excluded Judaism from the comparison until now - it doesn't have a "larger than life" founder whose example a reformation could call believers to "go back to", like the other two book religions do.

[HoonDing]

Comparing ISIS to Knights Templar is laughable.

[Ineth]

[...] in order to support your underlying hypothesis - which I'm guessing is that the current movements of Islam is incompatible with peace?

 

No, my main point - in response to Hurlshot's original comment - was that the religions are different, and will have to go different paths towards secularism and enlightenment - if they are to reach it at all.

 

One shouldn't put too much stock in the theory that Islam is just Christianity offset by 500 years, and will naturally take the same path. (i.e. the "boys will be boys" attitude towards Islam which is popular among the political left in the West.)

 

Instead, the West should should take Islam seriously for what it is now, and do more to support secularists and civil rights activists in the Muslim world so they can make a stand against the fundamentalists.

[Zoraptor]

It doesn't really matter what type of person Mohammad was, it matters how the vast majority of Muslims see him.  They do not see him as a violent warlord.

 

You could just watch "The Message" if you want an idea of how the more moderate Muslim sees his faith and the Prophet.  Despite its age, it is still a pretty relevant film.     

 

I would say though that if you reworded 'violent warlord' to use more favourable or neutral language most muslims would agree with that being a significant element of Muhammed because he was a (righteous, to their view) conqueror both historically and in the Koran. I'd make the distinction between those who see that violence and conquest as being, essentially, the end point and intrinsic to being a muslim and the vast majority who see it as being a means to an end under specific circumstances and not intrinsic except in those specific circumstances. The latter is, of course, both the majority view and also indistinguishable from the vast majority of those following even theoretically pacifist religions like buddhism or christianity or any other philosophy for that matter; everyone is perfectly willing to use violence for their ends under the right circumstances whether they be muslim or whatever.

[HoonDing]

"Violent warlord" is kind of a bizarre euphemism for child molester.

[Hurlshort]

Ah, very edgy, bagging on a 1300 year old religious icon.  Let's throw in some carpenter jokes as well.   

[Ineth]

I would say though that if you reworded 'violent warlord' to use more favourable or neutral language most muslims would agree with that being a significant element of Muhammed because he was a (righteous, to their view) conqueror both historically and in the Koran. I'd make the distinction between those who see that violence and conquest as being, essentially, the end point and intrinsic to being a muslim and the vast majority who see it as being a means to an end under specific circumstances and not intrinsic except in those specific circumstances. The latter is, of course, both the majority view and also indistinguishable from the vast majority of those following even theoretically pacifist religions like buddhism or christianity or any other philosophy for that matter; everyone is perfectly willing to use violence for their ends under the right circumstances whether they be muslim or whatever.

 

Yeah but in some religions, the violent fundamentalists can easily convince (especially young) believers that their way is indeed a "going back to the fundamentals!" by pointing at the example set by the religion's founder, whereas in other religions/philosophies they have to come up with auxiliary justifications.

 

 

Ah, very edgy, bagging on a 1300 year old religious icon.  Let's throw in some carpenter jokes as well.   

 

Isn't it commonly accepted now that "carpenter" was a mistranslation by Martin Luther, and that Jesus - if he existed - was most likely a stone quarry worker? (Considering a stone quarry apparently existed near where he grew up, and would fit the Greek word used to describe his day job). At least that's what I read in a 'popular history' article in an atheist magazine...

 

Not that "stone quarry worker" wouldn't lend itself to jokes too, mind you...

Edited September 21, 2015 by Ineth

[Zoraptor]

As has been pointed out several times, many of those looking back to the 'roots' of christianity decide that Jesus was a hippie and probably a commie too, and decide that looking right back to the OT is far more to their liking.

 

If people want to find a reason to inflict their beliefs on others they will do so whatever the underlying philosophy, the ability to simultaneously get power over others in some way and to pat yourself on the back for doing so 'morally' has always been a massive temptation- and there are plenty of atheists and secularists who follow that without the need for religion.

 

I'd also say that the root of christianity deradicalising was not the reformation itself but the 30 years war and other religious wars. It was only after those bloody internecine struggles where millions died that a quasi modern system of international states and proclamations of tolerance became the norm; and that was definitively after both sides had become very strongly radicalised for the century or so after the reformation.

[Oerwinde]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Article behind link is in Finnish, as I don't have seen any articles about this in English, so I must use this

http://yle.fi/uutiset/irakilaiset_varoittavat_toisiaan_somessa_alkaa_tulko_suomeen_taalla_on_kauheaa/8320618?ref=leiki-uu

 

Iraqi refugees in Finland have started to advice other refugees that they should not come in Finland or even Europe because even though there is safe life will be much harder and very humiliating. Also it is mentioned that everything is expensive, toilets are unclean, refugee centers give very small portions of food, refugees can't work. Also it is mentioned that some refugees say in social media that they want to return in home.

 

So what do you think isn't our social paradise on Earth that nice (very likely) or do these people just try make their own situation better in future by dissuading their commorades from coming here (or other places in Europe)?

Doesn't sound like them being much of refugees if an incoming cold winter and an economic downturn would make them think twice.

 

//edit: They were Iraqis, lol

I'm fine if less refugees come to Europe because they think life is hard in the EU...life is harder in the EU than people assume

 

 

So Elerond and Meshugger if you guys are feeling guilty about Finland creating such a bad impression of the EU....don't feel guilty. People also need to see the negative of the EU that isn't even that severe

Finland will create much worse impression in time period from December to February when temperature here is averagely between -10 - -30 degree of Celsius and you see sun only couple hours in day. Culture shock that it causes for people from ME is enormous even when one is prepared to it not to mention people that aren't.

Dark and cold, awesome music, sounds like my kind of place.