The current refugee wave in Europe

[Mr. Magniloquent]

If accepting refugees were supposed to be some sort of apology for a century of coup de'tats and destabilization, I'd perhaps see some reason accept a gigantic mass of young, single, male, welfarists with no desire to assimilate during a worldwide depression. Otherwise, it's just suicide. Then again, Europe's birth rate is negative, so perhaps the respective oligarchy's are looking for more mules to keep the ponzi schemes going. Questionable premise at best.

 

Ultimately, I find it hard to sympathize with any group here. Europe assists and instigates the third world in its own destruction, so now the third world is moving to Europe to return the favor. WWII left a heavy scar on the continent. Anyone there with a spine firm enough to reject them will be crucified. We live in interesting times.

[ktchong]

 

Nah the USA  owes those countries nothing, it has already scarified enough trying to implement a Democracy in Iraq...

 

 

Oh yes, the US invaded Iraq because Amerians wanted to sprinkle fairy dust on Iraqis, bring Jesus to them, give them Christmas presents and Easter eggs and Disneyland, yadda yadda yadda.

 

Talk about denial and the white savior/superiority complex.  

Edited September 10, 2015 by ktchong

[Drowsy Emperor]

That much of what is happening now is western doing goes without saying. Arab countries, Turkey etc. were on a firmly secular path once until constant political destabilization pushed them into the arms of fundamentalism. All countries targeted for regime change functioned as relatively secular dictatorships - Ghaddafi's Libya, Syria, Saddam's Iraq. Let's not forget how the government of Iran came about, or who supports the worlds biggest exporter of terrorism and fundamentalism (Saudi Arabia) without question. But even if it all is the doing of the US and the few EU vassals, the populace never actually supported these wars and what support there was was manufactured through lies and constant propaganda/indoctrination. 

 

The fact is that the EU population is a prisoner of its own elites, elites that follow policies that have nothing to do with the well-being of the people that elected them in office. Has no one noticed that regardless of the government, the political course of the large EU countries is always the same? Always the creeping neo-liberalism dismantling the welfare state, whether its the socialists or conservatives in office, always the same dogma of multi culturalism, often supporting US interventions without seeking the popular opinion. A democracy where all the choices lead to the same outcome is no democracy at all. 

 

I think that with this crisis we may soon reach a tipping point. It is not the elites that will have to live with these vagrants, its the average citizen, and if this thread is anything to go by, none of them are happy about it.

 

Sweden is probably where it will burst at the seams, as they're a relatively small country that has imported an obscene amount of muslims, to the point that Swedes are set to become a minority in their own country in a few decades.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Nah the USA  owes those countries nothing, it has already scarified enough trying to implement a Democracy in Iraq...

 

 

Oh yes, the US invaded Iraq because Amerians wanted to sprinkle fairy dust on Iraqis, bring Jesus to them, give them Christmas presents and Easter eggs and Disneyland, yadda yadda yadda.

 

Talk about denial and the white savior/superiority complex.  

 

Sure because a Democracy and having a free society is a bad idea right ...where do you live again North Korea? 

[BruceVC]

If accepting refugees were supposed to be some sort of apology for a century of coup de'tats and destabilization, I'd perhaps see some reason accept a gigantic mass of young, single, male, welfarists with no desire to assimilate during a worldwide depression. Otherwise, it's just suicide. Then again, Europe's birth rate is negative, so perhaps the respective oligarchy's are looking for more mules to keep the ponzi schemes going. Questionable premise at best.

 

Ultimately, I find it hard to sympathize with any group here. Europe assists and instigates the third world in its own destruction, so now the third world is moving to Europe to return the favor. WWII left a heavy scar on the continent. Anyone there with a spine firm enough to reject them will be crucified. We live in interesting times.

 

 

 

 

Nah the USA  owes those countries nothing, it has already scarified enough trying to implement a Democracy in Iraq...

 

 

Oh yes, the US invaded Iraq because Amerians wanted to sprinkle fairy dust on Iraqis, bring Jesus to them, give them Christmas presents and Easter eggs and Disneyland, yadda yadda yadda.

 

Talk about denial and the white savior/superiority complex.  

 

If you don't mind me asking why are you guys so anti-Western? I have no issue with your view in the sense you are perfectly entitled to your own views....I dont need to try to convince you why Western countries offer there citizens the best quality of life .

 

I am just interested, in my own country I face anti-Western sentiment all the time on these radio talk shows I listen to and frequent 

 

But it generally comes from 2 main groups

• A section of the Muslim community ...they are Sunni but obviously due to Apartheid they have even more conservative views that I find absurd and at times insulting.
• Sections of the black South African community but I dont blame them as they are not very well informed about global events. So there dislike is normally really illogical and is based on weird anachronistic views of Colonialism and they are very sensitive to any comparisons to the West. But I have learnt how to make a point to  them that doesn't get misunderstood    . And then there are a small number of white South Africans who are anti-Western...I know its a disgrace. But never doubt how far a human being can fall....they just annoy me and I correct them when I can

 

So what are your reasons? Drowsy is Serbian so I get that but no idea what motivates you guy around your views 

[Darkpriest]

There was that one point in history around 1800 years ago whe a certain pan european empire failed to assimilate various cultures and when a certain religion became dominant. At that point people following that religion believed in conversion by sword and flame...

 

Now we have a similar situation and i sure would not like to live in times around 150-200years from now.

[BruceVC]

There was that one point in history around 1800 years ago whe a certain pan european empire failed to assimilate various cultures and when a certain religion became dominant. At that point people following that religion believed in conversion by sword and flame...

 

Now we have a similar situation and i sure would not like to live in times around 150-200years from now.

 

You anti-American guys are really dramatic.....such theatrics, you guys make me laugh because I really believe you believe what you say 

 

I need to go to the bank so I'll tell you guys why I like the West when I get back 

[Elerond]

 

 

 

Nah the USA  owes those countries nothing, it has already scarified enough trying to implement a Democracy in Iraq...

 

 

Oh yes, the US invaded Iraq because Amerians wanted to sprinkle fairy dust on Iraqis, bring Jesus to them, give them Christmas presents and Easter eggs and Disneyland, yadda yadda yadda.

 

Talk about denial and the white savior/superiority complex.  

 

Sure because a Democracy and having a free society is a bad idea right ...where do you live again North Korea? 

 

 

If USA's goal was to implement a democratic system in Iraq they failed quite miserably in their efforts.

 

Because they failed, for example, to ensure Iraq's government has control over the land, remove power from local militant leaders, ensure democratic right for entire Iraq's population, not just for Shias, they failed to secure Iraq's boarders after they demolished secure forces from Saddam's regime. And quite lot of other mistakes that were made during invasion in Iraq.

 

And this don't take account it how strange and undemocratic it is for outside power to push democratic system in country where there is no clear demand for such.

 

But anyway because of lot of things there is civil war in Iraq which results will determine what kind country (countries) it will become and what kind of governance they will have. Currently free society and democracy don't seem to be the winning side.

[Starwars]

I really agree with whoever said that there's a serious lack of nuance in the political debate about this, at least here in Sweden, and it's very frustrating.

 

One the one hand, you have the Swedish Democrats which are, in my opinion nutjobs, angry men with an axe to grind, who are all about good ol' swedish values (lulz) and who can't seem to shake their previous attachments to nazism. They're not fond of immigration at all. They're gathering a lot of support because...

 

... the rest of the big parties tend to be of the "WELCOME EVERYONE!!! WE'RE HUMANITARIAN UNLIKE THOSE SWEDISH DEMOCRATS!" side of things. And there's... very little middle-ground to be found.

 

I think I'm one of the soft-hearted teddybears I know of but even I see that just dumping a lot of people into another culture without good plans for integration is not a good idea. I'm all for immigration, I think of it as a valuable resource in the end. But for god's sake, the society must treat it as such. There must be a good plan for turning it into something productive, both for the immigrant obviously and also for the society which we live in.

 

But in Sweden right now, there's just the war between the two extremes. Either immigrants are BAD, or they're AWESOME LET'S GET EVERYONE!

 

It sucks.

[Meshugger]

 

 

I want as much constitutional freedom at a local level, but at the same time i recognize the right of families, ethnic groups and to extent nations to be allow to exist and determine their future themselves. 

 

 

 

...As long as they know their place and don't stink up your country with their filth, right?

 

Or am I wrong to think the stance "your freedom to determine your future for yourself extends just as far as I'm comfortable with your presence" sounds somewhat... less lofty than your original statement?

 

 

 

Removal of borders will destroy everything and will only leave a mono-culture

 

 

That's a pretty big assumption.

 

I mean, you seem to simultaneously hold the opinion that the existence of national and ethnic groups is a factor that reinforces communities, but holds no inherent power and has to be held up artificially by the existence of borders. That strikes me as a really weird position. (And not just because the whole idea of nations as distinct entities is a comparatively modern one, yet people managed to have functioning societies without them for millennia.) As far as I can see, national identity is either a strong enough meme to self-perpetuate even without borders, or it's meaningless in a global society and there's no point in mourning its passing.

 

 

 

Removal of borders will (...) only leave (...) aimless consumerists that serve no higher purpose than what materialism can buy. 

 

 

 

Again with the assumptions. What do you base this on?

 

 

 

 

The quote is relevant because one of the most influencal people in the european elite dreamed about a world without frenchmen and germans, and in extent, a world without France and Germany. 

 

 

 

I fail to see how that would be a terrible loss.

 

 

 

Mass-emigration in times when the native population is dwindling is simply genocide built into the system.

 

 

 

You may want to brush up on your definition of "genocide".

 

 

Fantastic. If you feel that it is "no terrible loss" if germans or frenchmen would to dissappear, i do not know what to tell you. Do you apply the same level of empathy for Israel, Japan and Tibet perhaps? Or is it just countries within the western civilization?

 

My assumptions about nations, people and borders come from history, literature (the dystopias of Huxley and Orwell and more) and human nature itself. There's always a will to power, to something greater. There's always the next Genghis Khan around the corner waiting to forge his next empire and people willing to follow him. It is the power to wield, use and will to violence. Private companies and nations are no different in how this will is manifested.

 

1) People always care for their families first, then the community and so on, based on the shared values, religion, social behaviour and morality; a nation is stretching the limit. Case in point: Notice how there has been creation of more states in Europe since 1990

2) If there are no nations with a strong national spirit, their resolve to keep the social fabric together will slowly wither away for each generation until collapse. With such collapse comes chaos and war, that is inevitable.

3) Mass-immigration from countries that do not share the same values as the host nation is a symptom of a weak society to frail to sustain itself. Notice that it is mass-immigration, not immigration itself. Controlled immigration where the majority culture can slowly absolve the new culture is ok.

4) People make culture, it cannot exist by itself. The current cultures and values in europe are the result of hundreds of generations of forefathers living here. It's not a commodity or an attitude. Having destructive policies that are actively undermining that heritage is revolting, especially since it is all in the name of being "progressive".

5) Monopoly of violence either lies with an armed population or a strong army. You can't have neither, because that will be open season for any organised enterprise to march in.

6) If a nation has no control over their own property or laws, it is not a nation, is at best a target demographic of customers. The private companies only act out of self-interest for increased revenue and they will use violence if they can get away with it.

 

People who talk about abolishing borders, disarming the public and welcoming the world into a big orgy of altruism are either cynically plotting to destroy society or are simply naive. They are however in for a very rude awakening when they understand the truth: Pacifism is an ideal, war is a fact. That is the way of men.

[Darkpriest]

 

 

There was that one point in history around 1800 years ago whe a certain pan european empire failed to assimilate various cultures and when a certain religion became dominant. At that point people following that religion believed in conversion by sword and flame...

 

Now we have a similar situation and i sure would not like to live in times around 150-200years from now.

 

You anti-American guys are really dramatic.....such theatrics, you guys make me laugh because I really believe you believe what you say

 

I need to go to the bank so I'll tell you guys why I like the West when I get back

I am not anti-american. I am anti-stulid. It just happens that muricans in their ignorance did a lot of stupid things. Even brits during the 1800s had better understanding of that region...

 

Also i wish i could glimpse into the future and have my last laugh...

Edited September 10, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Rosbjerg]

I think this illustrates the point very well

 

Swedish professor and TED speaker Hans Rosling. Using apples to visualize his facts, Hans Rosling explains the current situation in Syria.

 

Edit: hmm, it won't embed youtube videos for me now.

But do yourself a favor and look up his videos on youtube, he's a master of explaining statistics in a way that modern media seems incapable of.

[Meshugger]

I think this illustrates the point very well

 

Swedish professor and TED speaker Hans Rosling. Using apples to visualize his facts, Hans Rosling explains the current situation in Syria.

 

Edit: hmm, it won't embed youtube videos for me now.

But do yourself a favor and look up his videos on youtube, he's a master of explaining statistics in a way that modern media seems incapable of.

 

Here's a counterpoint:

 

[Darkpriest]

Well the funny thing is that people who were immigrants 2-3 generations ago MAX and what made these countries successful in the first place now get strict regulations on migrants. I understand the logic about natural development resources etc. But they are being hypocrits. Perhaps they first should get approved by native popuplace of those lands...

 

If someone is able to find work, pay taxes and is not a criminal shpuld be simy.allowed to move and work as long as he gets paid the same amount as if the citizen would be doing the same type of work.

 

If he does not have a job semd him home. If he commits a crime (like theft) send him and all his relatives home. Simpler solutions that allow those willing to work hard to create their own American dream... also the person mus assimilate to the local culture. Not demand own conditions cause reasons... you are a ****ing guest so live and behave like a good guest.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Darkpriest

[HoonDing]

tbh this talk about "incompatible cultures" is exaggerated

 

after all we've tolerated the British for centuries now

[Fighter]

 

Swedish ambulance union demands military gear for Muslim no-go zones.

The Swedish police recently released a map of 55 no-go zones, where law enforcement in effect have ceded control to predominantly immigrant gangs.

 

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/03/16/swedish-ambulance-union-demands-military-gear-for-muslim-no-go-zones/

 

Is this for real?

[Raithe]

tbh this talk about "incompatible cultures" is exaggerated

 

after all we've tolerated the British for centuries now

 

Exactly, just like the English have tolerated the French, and the Germans...   I wouldn't say that the cultures are incompatible, just that they are quite different in their perspectives and attitudes on certain things. As such, they need to develop ways to mesh together and find a balance.

 

Unfortunately, the EU doesn't try that. It's a duct-taped monstrosity that evolved over time as a series of bureaucratic organisations between governments and now tries to apply a top-down "do what we say" approach full of red-tape.

 

 -- Then again, you do know why God made England so small? Otherwise we would have conquered the whole planet, not just run 3/4's of it for awhile.

[BruceVC]

 

Swedish ambulance union demands military gear for Muslim no-go zones.

The Swedish police recently released a map of 55 no-go zones, where law enforcement in effect have ceded control to predominantly immigrant gangs.

 

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/03/16/swedish-ambulance-union-demands-military-gear-for-muslim-no-go-zones/

 

Is this for real?

 

I'm not sure I believe this, I find it highly unlikely 

 

It smacks of Islamophobia 

[BruceVC]

 

I think this illustrates the point very well

 

Swedish professor and TED speaker Hans Rosling. Using apples to visualize his facts, Hans Rosling explains the current situation in Syria.

 

Edit: hmm, it won't embed youtube videos for me now.

But do yourself a favor and look up his videos on youtube, he's a master of explaining statistics in a way that modern media seems incapable of.

 

Here's a counterpoint:

 

 

 

 

Wow it doesn't take a lot to get people to clap for you and think you clever, imagine how sycophantic they would be towards me  ...I wasn't very impressed with his presentation

 

He makes several obvious points and fails to realize that the West can't fix everything.  So of course high skilled labor and professionals do immigrate ....but its a global world and we cant fault this 

 

But any country can turn itself around if they follow the rules of the free market and practice  Democrat principles and ensure good governance 

 

Look at BRICS ....only India is not going through some crisis or serious economic  challenger. And guess what the new Indian prime minister happens to be a very successful businessman who understands and follows Capitalism

[Rosbjerg]

Here's a counterpoint:

 

A fair point, but also too dramatic with the spilling over of course, especially seeing as birth rates are dropping across the world.

http://www.prb.org/publications/datasheets/2014/2014-world-population-data-sheet/data-sheet.aspx

And as you can see, basically we just need to help Africa now with literacy and development now.

 

 

No need for hyperbole, no need for exaggerations, lets take this discussion at face value - there is no "crisis", but we certainly benefit a lot more by helping nations help themselves. Especially because he's right in the fact that its basically the better offs that leave, which is a huge problem for the country they flee from.

[Raithe]

 

Here's a counterpoint:

 

A fair point, but also too dramatic with the spilling over of course, especially seeing as birth rates are dropping across the world.

http://www.prb.org/publications/datasheets/2014/2014-world-population-data-sheet/data-sheet.aspx

And as you can see, basically we just need to help Africa now with literacy and development now.

 

 

No need for hyperbole, no need for exaggerations, lets take this discussion at face value - there is no "crisis", but we certainly benefit a lot more by helping nations help themselves. Especially because he's right in the fact that its basically the better offs that leave, which is a huge problem for the country they flee from.

 

 

The trouble with helping Africa with literacy and development.. is how much of the money and aid sent gets skimmed off by the local warlords or actual members of the assorted official governments in those countries.

[Rosbjerg]

Yes, I would support entrepreneurial approaches - starting small businesses in Africa, using local management and understanding that work ethics take a minimum of a generation to form - and that they have to make and build an African approach themselves... Also remembering that this is a development we went through, painfully. Sending machinery and building infrastructure which requires a highly skilled and educated workforce is obviously an idiotic approach and so far we have only really rewarded laziness and corruption. To the point where I'm beginning to wonder if that's our goal.

 

We should instead try to blaster them and our own population with high quality education. More so than any military budget - then you'll see world development.

[BruceVC]

Yes, I would support entrepreneurial approaches - starting small businesses in Africa, using local management and understanding that work ethics take a minimum of a generation to form - and that they have to make and build an African approach themselves... Also remembering that this is a development we went through, painfully. Sending machinery and building infrastructure which requires a highly skilled and educated workforce is obviously an idiotic approach and so far we have only really rewarded laziness and corruption. To the point where I'm beginning to wonder if that's our goal.

 

We should instead try to blaster them and our own population with high quality education. More so than any military budget - then you'll see world development.

Guys why are you guessing about how to fix Afrixcas economic woes ? I live here and can tell you exactly what needs to be done 

 

A sensitive person would have been a little offended by how little you guys consider my view relevant 

[Malcador]

Typical Europeans thinking they know best what to do for Africa..

Edited September 10, 2015 by Malcador

[Raithe]

What Bruce, you can guess about how EU problems can be dealt with but we can't do the same with African issues?