Heavy hitting squishy melee against big hitters...help

[Torm51]

So I am currently building a rogue companion but am stuck between going Ranged gunner (again) as it works very well or going melee rogue this time.  I have no experience with squishy melee in dps.  How would does it work? I am having nightmares of The master below just turning around and breathing on my rogue since he has the lowest deflection.  I understand that's what shadow beyond is for but it breaks as soon as I make an action so the AI will probably just turn right back around to him as soon as he's in melee range.  So I am thinking he only goes in when those big hitters are hard CCed (Paralyze, petrify) but what is he doing the rest of the time If the hard hitter isn't finished?  I guess he should be by then?  I am not going to have a 100% immobilize CC on big bosses like the Master etc

 

I was thinking of equipping him with a blunder buss/pistol for when he cant be in melee range but to make those effective against high DR I would have to pick up at least penetrating shot, quick switch and maybe gunner and the build starts becoming to thinned out in the talents section not being very good at one particular thing..

 

PS with Shadow Beyond is Backstab worth it?

[Raven Darkholme]

For bossfights as this melee rogues suck.

[AshenPlanet]

Lol.

Rogues using ranged weapons do about 1/4 the DPS as melee rogues, and that's with optimizing deep wounds, poison, etc to the best of their ability.

If you are going to do a rogue, don't waste your time on a ranged weapon.

 

Rogues actually do better than any other class for single target DPS, if built properly.

Backstab is always a waste of time also, whether or not you use shadowing beyond.

 

Max his/her deflection, it's his weakest and most important defense.

Duel-weild fast melee weapons.

Use eder or pallegina or both with him using a two-handed weapon or dual-weilding on the front line.

Make liberal use of mother to keep his opponents on phantom foes / mental binding.

Make liberal use of aloth to keep targets slickened / blacksight.

 

With maxed dex and Per, you should have as high a reflex as you can get, so even if you are caught in a breath, you'll have a chance of surviving it.

 

[Torm51]

Ya I already screwed this one up then as I have him with max might and Dex.  I thought since hes dps those would be important.  Didn't think to build him like a tank.  He does have a super high reflex save thanks to his high dex.  I keep him safe for now with exactly that a Ciphers CC.  anything that engages him takes a CC.  So I am going to have to work it that way.  if hes caught bad just vanish (WoW term haha) and keep anything that he engages tied up.  It has worked so far.  Just worried about big bosses.

 

actually this is exactly what I am setting up with the slight variation of Shadow from Beyond.  Questionable pick but its another sneak attack at least.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Torm51

[Gromnir]

speaking from personal experience,  pump perception and dexterity high enough to make a difference v. the master below is doomed.   our go-to option is aoe charming/dominating the kobold ads so that the big lizard blasts them instead o' you.  still worried 'bout death o' your rogue? gotta priest in your party?  watchful presence and barring death's door is spells worthy o' consideration.  hell, a well-timed withdraw is perfect. and if your rogue dies, so what?  priest, in saint's war armour, can revive the fallen.

 

torm's rogue build is likely perfectly viable for a glass cannon.  high might & high dex is ideal for generating dps, though talent and ability allocation is more important. am in agreement that backstab is a waste-- your goal is maximize reliable sneak attack options and damage.  backstab is nice if you wanna impress folks with a screenshot o' a big damage hit, but am thinking that backstab value is more ego stroke than anything. aloth and hiravias both have access to Many spells that create sneak attack options for your rogue... though again, the aforementioned priest is overlooked for such.  priest seals can render foes prone or blind, and seal spells is hazards, so they get wacky inflated accuracy. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[GoldenAnkh]

You can create a rogue with a decent Deflection. (Sacrifice Might, not Dex, to get Resolve/Perception -- attacking more often means more opportunities to take advantage of status conditions, avoid overkill, get crits for spellstrike weapons, etc. -- just make sure you have a second set of maces/stilettos for high DR targets, where Might is more useful.) You do have to manage yourself in combat, though, to make sure you don't get zeroed in on -- CC is the way to go here.

 

Backstab is terrible -- maybe when v2.0 comes out that'll change.

 

You can also play "The Pool Guy", as I call it, to remove 95% of your glass cannon worries. You know those long-handled skimmers they use to scoop leaves out of a pool? Give your rogue a quarterstaff or a pike, and turn on reckless attack. Fire a sneak attack shot in the 1st two seconds with an arbalest/arquebus,. Then park your rogue behind your tank. It gets ridiculous when you get Tall Grass. You only really lose out on the flanking bonus, and with a Cipher and/or other party members, you'll get that anyway after the battle starts. Just make sure you know which conditions qualify you for sneak attack.

[Torm51]

Gents,

 

As usual thanks for the input.  You guys are great.

[AshenPlanet]

Nothing is screwed up, really. 

As long as you didn't gimp your Per and Res too badly, you can still make it work with equipment and a talent.

You can also always make it different next time, and see how much easier it is.

 

What I did on my last rogue, hearth orlan (best rogues imo):

str 10 , dex 19, con 7, per 20, int 3, res 19.

You could go with 14 str and 3 con if you wanted to really min-max (17 str is max), but I went with a little higher con.

 

The main thing is get as much deflection as what's available.

Take superior deflection, use a +10 def ring, etc. to get it as high as possible.

You should be dual-weilding fast melee weapons with maximum padded armor to be attacking as fast as a halfling can.

Keep in mind, your deflection will never be high enough to not get hit by everything.

That's not what you are trying to do, dragons and bosses will always hit you.

What you are trying to do is not be the lowest Deflection guy on the front line...

 

So give eder and pallegina two-handed weapons or dual-weilding, guardian stance, etc. so that they are near where you are and not a lot higher (no shields), but they can be in heavy armor.

They both get a lot more base deflection than rogues do, but if you maxed yourself out with stats, talents, and equipment, you should still be comparable to them.

This way you will be sharing the front line with 1 or 2 people who can take many of the hits instead of you.

 

I never bothered with backstab or finishing blows, backstab is terrible, and finishing blows is per rest...

You shouldn't be thinking along the lines of "at least I get 1 more sneak attack", you should be engineering the situations so that you always get sneak attacks, and always deathblows as soon as that is available at 9th level.

Use mother, use aloth, use durance, use hiravias, whoever you have with you, to add status effects to your opponents, with 2 status effects on them, you do crazy damage!

If you didn't use the flanking spell (phantom foes), like if you opened with mental binding instead, then move Eder or pallengina around to give you flanking.

They don't do anywhere near the damage you can do, so make them run around...  

Or, you could use shadowing or escape or coordinated positioning to do it yourself...

 

 

[Raven Darkholme]

A melee rogue that focuses on deflection is not gonna work, shields suck for dps and you're not gonna tank the master without shield.

[Luckmann]

I personally can't envision a Deflection-focused Rogue to work out very well, but... Dual-Wielding Riposte?

Or even a Weapon-and-Shield Style, One-Weapon Style, Riposte Rogue in Clothing? Maybe? Use Vengiatta Rugia or Hiro's Mantle for Retaliation attacks.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Luckmann

[AshenPlanet]

A melee rogue that focuses on deflection is not gonna work, shields suck for dps and you're not gonna tank the master without shield.

This sounds like you've never played a rogue...

 

Shields don't work.

[Torm51]

I figured I would ditch defense not to negative values but not positive either and have him hit as hard and as fast as possible using my PC Paladin tank and a Priest for support to keep him alive with LoH and all the priest support spells and a cipher setting him up with CC/sneak attack effects.  Its working well so far and he isn't all that squishy with a bit armor and with high Dex his attack speed is still high.  I have him in a Cuirass right now (Hand and Key) I think its too heavy though...maybe drop him down to scale or padded? Just padded seems a bit soft for a front liner.  Zealous Endurance gives him 3 extra DR its more for my tanks but it helps him.  Granted against hard hitters it wont really but hes not going to be getting hit by hard hitters as I have multiple escapes for him.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Torm51

[Gromnir]

 

A melee rogue that focuses on deflection is not gonna work, shields suck for dps and you're not gonna tank the master without shield.

This sounds like you've never played a rogue...

 

Shields don't work.

 

from our personal experience, dps rogue deflection don't work against the mistress below.  the deflection necessary to withstand the mistress requires a character with tank abilities and talents coupled with the shield deflection bonuses and other tanky gear.  

 

as an aside, the mistress below party killer (rogues included) for us is the breath weapon.  the breath does corrode damage, but am not recalling if it targets deflection or reflex.  our best defenses, other than consumables to temp inflate endurance, is the options we mentioned earlier in this thread. you may also load up on scrolls o' paralysis and revival if you want an easier run at the dragon.  scrolls o' confusion is also groovy as the dragon will attack confused ads.  grieving mother's mass dominate is similar efficacious, particularly as a couple o' the adragan (sp?) ads can petrify. is kinda funny when battle is won 'cause the adragans keep petrifying the dragon.

 

to torm: we suspect others will disagree, but the hand and key breastplate is not a bad option for the battle in question.  sure, it slows down your rate o' attack, but the breastplate offers considerable charm/dominate protection, and the ads will try and dominate you if they can. if you do not use cheese tactics to wipe out the ads before the dragon battle begins, a rogue with meh will saves will get benefit from the breastplate.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 8, 2015 by Gromnir

[Torm51]

 

 

A melee rogue that focuses on deflection is not gonna work, shields suck for dps and you're not gonna tank the master without shield.

This sounds like you've never played a rogue...

 

Shields don't work.

 

from our personal experience, dps rogue deflection don't work against the mistress below.  the deflection necessary to withstand the mistress requires a character with tank abilities and talents coupled with the shield deflection bonuses and other tanky gear.  

 

as an aside, the mistress below party killer (rogues included) for us is the breath weapon.  the breath does corrode damage, but am not recalling if it targets deflection or reflex.  our best defenses, other than consumables to temp inflate endurance, is the options we mentioned earlier in this thread. you may also load up on scrolls o' paralysis and revival if you want an easier run at the dragon.  scrolls o' confusion is also groovy as the dragon will attack confused ads.  grieving mother's mass dominate is similar efficacious, particularly as a couple o' the adragan (sp?) ads can petrify. is kinda funny when battle is won 'cause the adragans keep petrifying the dragon.

 

to torm: we suspect others will disagree, but the hand and key breastplate is not a bad option for the battle in question.  sure, it slows down your rate o' attack, but the breastplate offers considerable charm/dominate protection, and the ads will try and dominate you if they can. if you do not use cheese tactics to wipe out the ads before the dragon battle begins, a rogue with meh will saves will get benefit from the breastplate.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

All adds will be fought if I get that far in this PoTD trial of Iron. I am not going that far in the endless paths until level 12 and full builds.  I have done it prior to level 12 and a full build and won but I don't want to risk it here.  I agree the most dangerous guy to get dominated in my party is my rogue and with is so so will defense he gets targeted a lot.  That coupled with either the priest buff or Bond of Duty (Playing a Goldpact Knight this time as my PC I love Paladins haha)  might take this at 12 but its not that good really cause I have the priest...though extra coverage can be good/it lets the priest use some other spells on that level spell list.  Really if my paladin has it and I have the priest buff Dominate should be a none issue with my party (although Greater LoH might be a better talent spent at 12 instead of Bond of Duty).

Edited July 8, 2015 by Torm51

[Raven Darkholme]

 

A melee rogue that focuses on deflection is not gonna work, shields suck for dps and you're not gonna tank the master without shield.

This sounds like you've never played a rogue...

 

Shields don't work.

 

That's exactly what I wrote, what's your point?

 

The only guy doing absolutely accurate posts here is Gromnir, sounds like he actually did that fight with a melee rogue while you are proud if some shades don't skewer you.

[MadDemiurg]

Engaging enemies 1 by 1 with prone/stun on crit weapons is a good option. Another option is to use reach weapons, but they have lower dps than dw. Otherwise CC all the way. If you rely on CC too much though you'll end up babysitting the rogue and hampering performance of other team members to make the rogue work, which can be a net loss in overall efficiency in the end.

[GoldenAnkh]

One thought -- the OP didn't specify POTD in his requirements, and he's not soloing (he says he's building a companion). Granting there are exceptions to the rules in boss fights, etc., here's a more general answer why melee rogues need deflection for two reasons 98% of the time:

 

(1) Not so obvious: The PC with the lowest deflection often gets specifically targeted by monsters (especially teleporting shadowy undead). If the rogue is targeted (e.g., he doesn't get a deflection buff, the squishies drop/are too far away/behind the tank(s), etc.), he's probably running/Shadowing Beyond, and thus not DPSing.

(2) The obvious one: Not only does deflection cause misses, but it turns crits->hits and hits->grazes. This is key to survivability.

 

It may not be the the optimal rogue weapon, but a hatchet gives +5 deflection. Dual-wield two of these and you boost Deflection by 10. Take a rogue whose deflection is 15 less than the accuracy of his opponent. The rogue will always get struck (35% graze, 50% hit, 15% crit). Now, give the same rogue two hatchets and he'll be missed 10%, grazed 35%, hit 50%, and crit 5% of the time. That's a 1/6 overall reduction in incoming damage, solely because it's a 2/3 reduction in crits that either debilitate the rogue for a longer time and/or splatter him in one shot.

 

A rogue still needs a set with mace/stiletto/sabers/etc. for dual-wielding against high-DR opponents, of course.

[MalVeauX]

So I am currently building a rogue companion but am stuck between going Ranged gunner (again) as it works very well or going melee rogue this time.  I have no experience with squishy melee in dps.  How would does it work? I am having nightmares of The master below just turning around and breathing on my rogue since he has the lowest deflection.  I understand that's what shadow beyond is for but it breaks as soon as I make an action so the AI will probably just turn right back around to him as soon as he's in melee range.  So I am thinking he only goes in when those big hitters are hard CCed (Paralyze, petrify) but what is he doing the rest of the time If the hard hitter isn't finished?  I guess he should be by then?  I am not going to have a 100% immobilize CC on big bosses like the Master etc

 

I was thinking of equipping him with a blunder buss/pistol for when he cant be in melee range but to make those effective against high DR I would have to pick up at least penetrating shot, quick switch and maybe gunner and the build starts becoming to thinned out in the talents section not being very good at one particular thing..

 

PS with Shadow Beyond is Backstab worth it?

 

Heya,

 

I'm currently pushing a melee rogue, centered on single handed weapon, no shield, wearing no armor, with high dex, high int, high per, and some might. Focusing on accuracy over all else, to go after more crits and just keep hitting so I have consistent output. He absolute crushes single targets. He's squishy as all get out though. So what I do in general is as combat starts I send the Rogue off to flank and let my tank(s) get engaged. After the first blows begin, I move the Rogue in to start dealing damage.

 

For certain fights you can always buff for that fight (enchant armor with damage reduction to a damage type specifically, on something like padded armor for example, to keep some speed, while getting some survivability). I play with a Priest, so having those "get out of jail free" spells helps tremendously when your Rogue gets knocked out. Withdraw & Revive are awesome.

 

Very best,

[Torm51]

One thought -- the OP didn't specify POTD in his requirements, and he's not soloing (he says he's building a companion). Granting there are exceptions to the rules in boss fights, etc., here's a more general answer why melee rogues need deflection for two reasons 98% of the time:

 

(1) Not so obvious: The PC with the lowest deflection often gets specifically targeted by monsters (especially teleporting shadowy undead). If the rogue is targeted (e.g., he doesn't get a deflection buff, the squishies drop/are too far away/behind the tank(s), etc.), he's probably running/Shadowing Beyond, and thus not DPSing.

(2) The obvious one: Not only does deflection cause misses, but it turns crits->hits and hits->grazes. This is key to survivability.

 

It may not be the the optimal rogue weapon, but a hatchet gives +5 deflection. Dual-wield two of these and you boost Deflection by 10. Take a rogue whose deflection is 15 less than the accuracy of his opponent. The rogue will always get struck (35% graze, 50% hit, 15% crit). Now, give the same rogue two hatchets and he'll be missed 10%, grazed 35%, hit 50%, and crit 5% of the time. That's a 1/6 overall reduction in incoming damage, solely because it's a 2/3 reduction in crits that either debilitate the rogue for a longer time and/or splatter him in one shot.

 

A rogue still needs a set with mace/stiletto/sabers/etc. for dual-wielding against high-DR opponents, of course.

 

 

Definitely playing PoTD and trial of iron!

[Raven Darkholme]

 

One thought -- the OP didn't specify POTD in his requirements, and he's not soloing (he says he's building a companion). Granting there are exceptions to the rules in boss fights, etc., here's a more general answer why melee rogues need deflection for two reasons 98% of the time:

 

(1) Not so obvious: The PC with the lowest deflection often gets specifically targeted by monsters (especially teleporting shadowy undead). If the rogue is targeted (e.g., he doesn't get a deflection buff, the squishies drop/are too far away/behind the tank(s), etc.), he's probably running/Shadowing Beyond, and thus not DPSing.

(2) The obvious one: Not only does deflection cause misses, but it turns crits->hits and hits->grazes. This is key to survivability.

 

It may not be the the optimal rogue weapon, but a hatchet gives +5 deflection. Dual-wield two of these and you boost Deflection by 10. Take a rogue whose deflection is 15 less than the accuracy of his opponent. The rogue will always get struck (35% graze, 50% hit, 15% crit). Now, give the same rogue two hatchets and he'll be missed 10%, grazed 35%, hit 50%, and crit 5% of the time. That's a 1/6 overall reduction in incoming damage, solely because it's a 2/3 reduction in crits that either debilitate the rogue for a longer time and/or splatter him in one shot.

 

A rogue still needs a set with mace/stiletto/sabers/etc. for dual-wielding against high-DR opponents, of course.

 

 

 

Definitely playing PoTD and trial of iron!

Also the point is not, whether a melee rogue needs deflection, but whether he can be used against Adra Dragon.

[AshenPlanet]

One thought -- the OP didn't specify POTD in his requirements, and he's not soloing (he says he's building a companion). Granting there are exceptions to the rules in boss fights, etc., here's a more general answer why melee rogues need deflection for two reasons 98% of the time:

 

(1) Not so obvious: The PC with the lowest deflection often gets specifically targeted by monsters (especially teleporting shadowy undead). If the rogue is targeted (e.g., he doesn't get a deflection buff, the squishies drop/are too far away/behind the tank(s), etc.), he's probably running/Shadowing Beyond, and thus not DPSing.

(2) The obvious one: Not only does deflection cause misses, but it turns crits->hits and hits->grazes. This is key to survivability.

 

It may not be the the optimal rogue weapon, but a hatchet gives +5 deflection. Dual-wield two of these and you boost Deflection by 10. Take a rogue whose deflection is 15 less than the accuracy of his opponent. The rogue will always get struck (35% graze, 50% hit, 15% crit). Now, give the same rogue two hatchets and he'll be missed 10%, grazed 35%, hit 50%, and crit 5% of the time. That's a 1/6 overall reduction in incoming damage, solely because it's a 2/3 reduction in crits that either debilitate the rogue for a longer time and/or splatter him in one shot.

 

A rogue still needs a set with mace/stiletto/sabers/etc. for dual-wielding against high-DR opponents, of course.

 

Good points.

I usually start with a pair of hatchets that you get in the starting area from the temple/ruin defenders.

These are great weapons to start out with.

The only problem with hatchets is that there are no great magic hatchets, so their usefulness diminishes later in the game.

 

After leaving the ruins, I try to avoid fighting anything (except what's needed in cad nua) until I can pick up all the companions and get to defiance bay.

In the first town weapon shop, you can buy the best stiletto in the game, and you can get a +12 accuracy, very nice stiletto from the doemenals as early as 3rd level.

I use those pretty much exclusively until late game when you can get a superb rapier and superb dagger in deep endless paths.

As you said, these stilettos are good against high DR monsters, and specifically the stiletto you get in the first town shop is pretty awesome against anything, high DR or not, until you get to the very late game superb weapons, a few basic enchantments like fine and eventually exceptional, and a lash, is all it needs.

I'll wait to take focus noble and switch to the superb rapier/dagger for the late game.

In the late game, you'll regularly be hitting for 60+, and the DR isn't as big a deal.

 

Well made rogues work great against the dragons and the end boss.

They won't be the first/primary target if you build them right, and they're not the lowest deflection in the front line, and if they do fall to a breath or tail swipe, you should bring them back into the fight asap.

Whether or not they drop in the middle of the fight, they will do more DPS than anyone else in your party by a wide margin, even druids and wizards can't keep up with their crazy high single-target DPS.

[View619]

A Rogue focusing on deflection is terrible imo, the poor base deflection will just result in a sub-par total or sacrificing the class's major advantage to put them at an acceptable level through talent selection.

 

If you really want a Rogue that won't keel over on the front-lines, give it the ability to disengage consistently. That's done by increasing disengagement defense or fast attacks with a high interrupt chance. 

Edited July 10, 2015 by View619

[VahnXIII]

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78849-class-build-the-dynamite-melee-wizard-or-tnt-105/

 

This is the build I'm currently using and it's great fun. The best part is, things die quickly. Most of the time they will die before they even knew you were around if you position correctly. Highly recommend taking a look at least.

 

Cheers.