Greece, EU and why we can't have nice things

[cirdanx]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Private and public ownerships have their own good and bad sides. But privatisation of public owned assets like ports, electric grid, postal service, don't mean that state will lose money, but it can mean that those sectors will hire less people, cut services in non-profitable areas, increased service costs. But monetary flow from those services to state usually increases signifigantly, because state don't anymore need to spent money to run those services, they just get money part of their sales, salaries, and other monetary transactions.

 

So in monetary sense privatisation is nearly always better for the state, but that don't mean that all effects caused by privatisation is better for the state.

 

Eveything has a good and a bad site. There is no reason to point out the obvious. BUT I disagree with the privitasation, we are talking about Greece biggest income here sold to bankers, as long as the ports etc are in goverment property they decide what goes in/out how it gets taxed etc. Now they won´t they are forced to completley sell out how is that not clear? How can anyone support this? Privatatzion is one thing, but ****ing forcing everything including the life line (in/export) and the islands for bankers..i mean seriously...think people.  Or..has anyone seen a good side on this despite "may/possible/fantasy". No?

 

The Fin minister was clearly against it. But then, FInland can´t take much more cant it? :>

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/15/finland-boom-election-recession-oulu-miracle-timber-nokia

 

 

It is not sold to bankers, but their privatisation is given to independent fund which have strict specifications where money from the privatization should go (demands to found such fund shows how deep the distrust is between debitors [mainly Germany] and Greece government), but Greece still is owner of those assets until said independent fund has found buyer for those assets. Also it will be Greece itself that decides what of their public assets they will sell, but as their ports, postal service, islands and electric grid have highest value on private sector and weakest profitably in public sector, it is natural that they are the suggested assets to be privatisated. Where for example I havenät seen suggestions of privatizing very profitable Hellenic Petroleum anywhere, even though it alone would worth that 50 billion euros that set to be size of that privatisation fund.

 

Finnish ministers don't know what they think about privatisation, but Finland has gone through heavier privatisation of public assets than what is now (and previously) demanded from Greece (given that estimated values for Greece assets are even close to their real value), and our ministers still plan to do more privatisation especially in medical and eldery care sectors. Also Finland itself is currenlt going through heavy austerity methods, because of decrease in our economy in recent years (which is also lead situation where two thrid of our goverment is controlled by EU and euro critical parties).

 

It gets sold over some ways and it will end there. A bank is also owend by a person This is no secret nor are the owners.

 

You....seem very naive, despite the fact that Finland went thru that? What do think will happen? In the past Finladn woudl devaluted its currencfy and went back up in the market...now...well if you think that this situation is good. Then good luck. Because austertity never worked, and it also didn´t work  for Finland. This time however will be differend. But then, good luck with that billions on loses with Russian trade thanks to the EU

 

 

Funds aren't banks. They are corporations that handle financial matters for somebody else, like for example buy and sell stocks for people. Many banks have funds that they use to offer such services for their customers, but in this case we speak about new independent (not owned by anybody) fund that will handle selling of those assets. 

 

Devaluating currency is very over valued method to solve economical problems of state. Of course it is nice for state that has lot of income in other currencies to say that their own currency is now only tenth of its previous value in those other currencies and then pay loans that they have taken in their own currency off, nice and easy. But it isn't nice and easy for citizen of state, because such measure means that they lose quite lot money which can often be destatating amount. For example it was November when Finnish goverment decided to devalue Finnish mark, which meant that thousads of businesses had just ordered stuff that they planed to sell in Christmas markets and most of those companies had all their monetary assets in Finnish marks, which meant that overnight value of their orders had rised to tenfold in Finnish marks, meaning that most of them didn't have money to pay their orders, which lead flood of bankruptcies. Also banks that had loaned money to goverment and who had bussiness in abroad found themselves in situation where they didn't have money to give people which lead their bankruptcies, which mean that hundreds of thousands Finns lose their savings. This cause massive rise of suicades in Finland. So in my opinion stability of euro even with all it problems is much better for general population of Finland than give back ability to control our currency to our government. 

 

And if you think that devaluting currency isn't very extremely form of austerity then I think you don't know what you speak.

 

Funds are created directly by banks or with bank support in the background as a creditor, which again makes them the owner of the funds. There is  no such things as "not owned by anyone" that should be clear, someone somewhere owns that. Even if its the bonds or the dept directly. I mean seriously if that would be true i could get a credit that is owmed by noone..give me a million...no ones own it..nope..someone owns my ass then

 

I understand what you say, yes a devaluation has always negative sides. No question there. But in the end it helps not only to hinder or mild a crisis but it also gives the power to your national bank and with that to your country. Your country has done that very often and it helped.

 

What do you do know? nothing, you are bound to the euro and the eurozone. You can´t decide, you as your country. You are ****ed. You are a good canditate to be the next greece, has austeriy helped you? Has the EU law helped you? Has the Euro helped you?

 

No. It hasnt. Just like here, for everything you gained (your expansion out of your crisis) you had to pay...now comes the end. Example, the Fin export went up, but as soon as the euro went up dozens of companies had to close and thousands lost their job. Well, it was the same here.

 

Devaluting your currency is NOT austerity, this doesnt even come close, and i that means i don´t know a thing, than so be it.

 

I think i have a very clear view.

 

 

Funds aren't created to work as creditor, but instance that handles somebody elses money. Creditors are instances that give people, corporations and goverments loans. Banks have usually both and if they aren't pure finnancical banks they also offer possiblity to deposit money which their creditor side usually then loans forward partially (because these days bank usually aren't allowed to loan full amount). In case of Greece's privatization fund there is created new institution (which funded by EU and itself) that should not have ties to banks and governments, which only purpose is to find buyers for the assets that Greece government decides to sell and then they control money that is get from those trades so that 25 billion goes to fund Greece's banks, 12.5 billion is put to pay their debts and 12.5 billion will be invested in Greece. Of course it is possibility that some bank will bought those assets that are put on sale, but most probably buyers will be international mega corporations (which some own banks) and richer citizens and corporations of Greece. And until point where assets are sold they are owned by Greece's state and Greece goverment is able to take them off from sale and put something else to be sold instead. So Greece don't relinquish any their assets before they get paid, but they can't change where money goes as it is already decided, except in case of surplus (they get more than 50 billion). 

 

It is much more important (for general public) to have stable currency than be able to control it fully. There is always other means to balance your economy and it also works as incentive for goverments actually do financically solid decisions as they can't just but everything to shoulders of others when they mess up.

 

Devaluating a currency is austerity method, it is extreme method for government to cut their spendings by cutting value of their debt and this cut is heavilly paid by people of state because value of their money drops. In my opinon goverment should always use much more controlled methods of austerity where it is much easier to predict consequences of choosen actions. In devaluating it is always blind strike in darkness and then hope for the best, because there is always so much unforseen consequences.

 

Funds are created in the structre within the EU, but they operate exactly like bank funds.

 

http://europa.eu/about-eu/funding-grants/index_en.htm This is how a bank operates.

 

Not to mention we were not talking about funds but credits. Or do you think its just an accident that GoldmanSachs man Draghi sits in the EU as the top fin Min?

 

If your answers to that is yes, dont bother answering.

 

Finland is on the bring. Just like others. But you still can get credits so..for a while you will do fine. Not long though, and fear for Austria too.

 

Dept is no solution. This will come down on our heads in the next years...and i´m not looking forwar to it. Honestly i´m afraid.

 

My point stays, it would be better to leave the Euro zone.

 

 

 

Tisparis biggest shame will be that he didn´t leave the EU. This deal is death and nothing more for Greece...ah and of course privatization for the banks. It´s robbery and nothing else.

From what I can see it is "coup" that is the hashtag trending right now.

 

 

Thats from the ex fin-min...and now that he can speak freely it´s interesting to get an inside view.

 

It´s questinable what is the truth, but considering how everything went, i give him the benefit of doubt.

[Barothmuk]

You see my friend, this is what happens when you don't follow Capitalism and go this hybrid socialist route Greece tried to implement 

Your ****posting doesn't get nearly the credit it deserves.

[BruceVC]

 

You see my friend, this is what happens when you don't follow Capitalism and go this hybrid socialist route Greece tried to implement 

Your ****posting doesn't get nearly the credit it deserves.

 

 

You and I share many common causes and views, like criticism of GG and a belief in certain SJ values 

 

 

Yet you don't share my support of Capitalism and the West...but thats fine. We can't agree on anything 

[Gorth]

Funny fact. Denmark went through a similar phase in its history in the 1980's

 

Decades of financial mismanagement by various (mostly social democrat, i.e. moderate left) governments had left the country with a humongous debt, threatening the future viability of the "welfare state".

 

The Conservative party got the rather ungrateful task of trying to salvage the country's finances before hitting the point of not return into a total collapse and the country went through almost a decade of voluntary austerity measures, affectionately known as "The Potato Diet" (no more meat for you!).

 

It was turbulent times, salary cuts, unemployment etc. But guess what? I think Denmark came out of it all the better, with a strong economy, balancing budgets and economic growth throughout the nineties and naughties.

[BruceVC]

Funny fact. Denmark went through a similar phase in its history in the 1980'ss

 

Decades of financial mismanagement by various (mostly social democrat, i.e. moderate left) governments had left the country with a humongous debt, threatening the future viability of the "welfare state".

 

The Conservative party got the rather ungrateful task of trying to salvage the country's finances before hitting the point of not return into a total collapse and the country went through almost a decade of voluntary austerity measures, affectionately known as "The Potato Diet" (no more meat for you!).

 

It was turbulent times, salary cuts, unemployment etc. But guess what? I think Denmark came out of it all the better, with a strong economy, balancing budgets and economic growth throughout the nineties and naughties.

Exactly, Denmark is consistently in the top 5 for "Happiest Citizens in the world " ....this matters even if people dismiss it as these studies look at a wide range of metrics

 

Now we take the African continent as I mentioned where we have at least 20 % of countries that have almost broken economies ...and they have been like that for decades

 

And the saddest part is they can transform there economies but there is no political will  but the leaders live a good life and average citizen just seems to accept it ....or they blame Colonialism 

[Zoraptor]

Looks like the IMF may refuse to back the bailout due to insufficient (well, no) debt restructuring. Weird world it is where I agree wholeheartedly with the IMF, but when they're right, they're right.
 

It is much more important (for general public) to have stable currency than be able to control it fully. There is always other means to balance your economy and it also works as incentive for goverments actually do financically solid decisions as they can't just but everything to shoulders of others when they mess up.

Not really- by the simple logic if Greece revalued its currency instead of devalued then suddenly everyone in Greece would be rich, since devaluation makes them poor, and it would be an excellent way to get ludicrously cheap imports too. They'd have a bigger debt, but everyone would be rich, spend up large, then they could devalue and pay off the debt while holding all the assets they'd bought when the revaluation went through! It doesn't really work that way, unless you do a deliberate governmental devaluation which is a very big deal, and which Greece wouldn't need to do since as soon as they go back to the drachma its face value will drop with no intervention required. It'll still drop their purchasing power for imports, but it isn't like their purchasing power is anything to write home about with 40+% poverty and 25% unemployment anyway.

 

It's a lot more nuanced anyway, a stable currency is a symptom of a healthy, sustainably growing economy (with exceptions for certain major currencies, such as Euro and USD) and is ideally what you want, but a stable currency in an unhealthy economy is a sign of currency manipulation- and you don't get more manipulated than having a 3rd party in charge of your currency's value, as Greece has. In a proper system- ie not the Eurozone- the currency floats according to economic strength precisely because it is a consequence of and moderator of said economic strength, a strong economy sees the currency rise in value, a weak one sees it fall and that has effects on competitiveness and import/ export balance. That is and always has been Greece's main problem in the Euro, their currency is massively overvalued relative to their actual performance, a devaluation from what is now for them a purely arbitrary Euro valuation with no relation to their economic performance would actually remove an imbalance. Anything else merely propagates it.
 
Of course, now it's going to be horrible for Greece because they are so out of whack with their actual performance, but continuing to propagate that imbalance in the name of stability is like insisting a starving man continue eating the same rations that have lead to the starvation because that is 'stable' or that a child stuck six feet off the ground on a see saw because a fat kid is on the other end should stay there because that is 'stable'.

[Varana]

I don't know why it doesn't occur to any of those advocating for Greece to leave the Eurozone that in the past few days, there has been a (not helpful at all) paper by Schäuble exploring the possibility of a "Grexit", and the Greek government was strictly against that. And after the referendum, they didn't use that to negotiate leaving the Euro at all but fired their divisive finance minister and came back with new proposals.

That looks awfully like increasingly desperate attempts to stay in the Euro.

And it's also quite telling that basically everyone at the negotiations tries to find ways to keep Greece while getting their country back on track so that the problem doesn't come back in five years. You might disagree whether the measures would bring that change about, but that's their goal. Those arguing for a Grexit are armchair economists and American ones (or no economists at all) who sit at the sidelines and watch. European governments want to keep Greece in (including the Greek one), the European peoples want to keep Greece in (including the Greek one).

If Greece leaves the Euro, their state probably defaults, people try to move money out of the country by all means available, the economy collapses, and all that for the distant hope that it might get better after a while (and even Greeks don't trust their state that much). That may not be a guaranteed outcome but it is probable enough that a "Grexit" comes down to a huge gamble with the lives and fortunes of millions of people which can easily go completely wrong. I don't think that gambling with your country is responsible politics.

The issue is not so much Greek debt in itself. Most Greek debts are held by the IMF and European institutions - if it's nullified, those who pay are European taxpayers. Is that democracy? Countries like Germany could probably get over it relatively unscathed, but good luck explaining that to people in Slovakia (with less GDP/capita than Greece even now), Spain or Portugal (who are struggling themselves), or the Baltic states (who went through drastic austerity measures already). You might even be able to sell that - if the result would be that the Greek crisis would be over.

But it wouldn't be. Greece runs a deficit all by itself even without any debt. And that's the problem. And while it may be debatable what would change that, at this point in time, basically no one trusts any Greek government to even implement the reforms everyone agrees on. Cutting military spending, tax reform, targeting tax evasion, cutting privileges e.g. of the Orthodox Church, reform of the bloated pensions system and civil sector - nothing has happened, neither under PASOK, nor ND, and not even Syriza. Negotiations don't break down because of which reforms exactly should be implemented. They break down because no one believes that Greece would implement any reforms at all. Their policy (not only Syriza's) over the past years has largely been trying to continue as they did with the kind of state that got them into the mess in the first place while suffering none of the consequences of that mismanagement. Sadly, you can't have the cake and eat it, too.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Varana

[Chilloutman]

Most people want Greece in EU, not in Eurozone, that is big difference

[BruceVC]

I don't know why it doesn't occur to any of those advocating for Greece to leave the Eurozone that in the past few days, there has been a (not helpful at all) paper by Schäuble exploring the possibility of a "Grexit", and the Greek government was strictly against that. And after the referendum, they didn't use that to negotiate leaving the Euro at all but fired their divisive finance minister and came back with new proposals.

That looks awfully like increasingly desperate attempts to stay in the Euro.

And it's also quite telling that basically everyone at the negotiations tries to find ways to keep Greece while getting their country back on track so that the problem doesn't come back in five years. You might disagree whether the measures would bring that change about, but that's their goal. Those arguing for a Grexit are armchair economists and American ones (or no economists at all) who sit at the sidelines and watch. European governments want to keep Greece in (including the Greek one), the European peoples want to keep Greece in (including the Greek one).

If Greece leaves the Euro, their state probably defaults, people try to move money out of the country by all means available, the economy collapses, and all that for the distant hope that it might get better after a while (and even Greeks don't trust their state that much). That may not be a guaranteed outcome but it is probable enough that a "Grexit" comes down to a huge gamble with the lives and fortunes of millions of people which can easily go completely wrong. I don't think that gambling with your country is responsible politics.

The issue is not so much Greek debt in itself. Most Greek debts are held by the IMF and European institutions - if it's nullified, those who pay are European taxpayers. Is that democracy? Countries like Germany could probably get over it relatively unscathed, but good luck explaining that to people in Slovakia (with less GDP/capita than Greece even now), Spain or Portugal (who are struggling themselves), or the Baltic states (who went through drastic austerity measures already). You might even be able to sell that - if the result would be that the Greek crisis would be over.

But it wouldn't be. Greece runs a deficit all by itself even without any debt. And that's the problem. And while it may be debatable what would change that, at this point in time, basically no one trusts any Greek government to even implement the reforms everyone agrees on. Cutting military spending, tax reform, targeting tax evasion, cutting privileges e.g. of the Orthodox Church, reform of the bloated pensions system and civil sector - nothing has happened, neither under PASOK, nor ND, and not even Syriza. Negotiations don't break down because of which reforms exactly should be implemented. They break down because no one believes that Greece would implement any reforms at all. Their policy (not only Syriza's) over the past years has largely been trying to continue as they did with the kind of state that got them into the mess in the first place while suffering none of the consequences of that mismanagement. Sadly, you can't have the cake and eat it, too.

 

Well thats one way of looking at it, here is another. Greece can leave 

 

• Other EU countries banks will transfer there citizens money out Greek banks
• Greece will still have pay most of the loans back, you cannot avoid the IMF and the EU debt
• This will set a clear message to the other countries undergoing austerity to continue
• Holidays in Greece will still be cheap
• Many countries in Africa aren't really part of the African Union...its not the end of the world

Just for the record why do you think most countries want Greece to stay in the EU ?Aren't they tired of all these issues ?

Edited July 15, 2015 by BruceVC

[Zoraptor]

That looks awfully like increasingly desperate attempts to stay in the Euro.

 

The Euro is politically popular in Greece. They want the incompatible combination of no austerity and euro membership, but of the two they apparently prefer Euro membership, something like 70% (?) want to accept the current deal despite it being stupid. That makes it politically untenable for Greece to leave without being (or appearing to be) forced out.

 

And it's also quite telling that basically everyone at the negotiations tries to find ways to keep Greece while getting their country back on track so that the problem doesn't come back in five years. You might disagree whether the measures would bring that change about, but that's their goal. Those arguing for a Grexit are armchair economists and American ones (or no economists at all) who sit at the sidelines and watch.

Christine Lagarde is neither an armchair economist nor american, and her organisation is saying that they cannot lend to Greece under the current circumstances because the debt is odious and it would be illegal for them to contribute further to that. The European negotiators knew this before making the deal that relies on the IMF contributing. It's not so much disagreement about whether they'll achieve their goal, it's that they know that this deal won't get Greece back on track and that, as it stands, the deal is already dead as they've been told that one of their contributors cannot contribute under the conditions of their deal. Yet they still made the deal saying that the IMF would contribute, presumably not thinking that the IMF would leak then publicly say they won't contribute. That's a refusal to accept reality, it's very easy to insist that Greece must stay if you simply deny reality and decide that everything will work out fine in the end.

[BruceVC]

 

That looks awfully like increasingly desperate attempts to stay in the Euro.

 

The Euro is politically popular in Greece. They want the incompatible combination of no austerity and euro membership, but of the two they apparently prefer Euro membership, something like 70% (?) want to accept the current deal despite it being stupid. That makes it politically untenable for Greece to leave without being (or appearing to be) forced out.

 

And it's also quite telling that basically everyone at the negotiations tries to find ways to keep Greece while getting their country back on track so that the problem doesn't come back in five years. You might disagree whether the measures would bring that change about, but that's their goal. Those arguing for a Grexit are armchair economists and American ones (or no economists at all) who sit at the sidelines and watch.

Christine Lagarde is neither an armchair economist nor american, and her organisation is saying that they cannot lend to Greece under the current circumstances because the debt is odious and it would be illegal for them to contribute further to that. The European negotiators knew this before making the deal that relies on the IMF contributing. It's not so much disagreement about whether they'll achieve their goal, it's that they know that this deal won't get Greece back on track and that, as it stands, the deal is already dead as they've been told that one of their contributors cannot contribute under the conditions of their deal. Yet they still made the deal saying that the IMF would contribute, presumably not thinking that the IMF would leak then publicly say they won't contribute. That's a refusal to accept reality, it's very easy to insist that Greece must stay if you simply deny reality and decide that everything will work out fine in the end.

 

 

Zora don't you feel betrayed and disappointed by Tsipras decision to suddenly acquiesce to harsher austerity. He fooled us all and created loads of resentment and consternation between certain member  states. I didn't think he  would fold so quick, I assumed the new austerity measures would have been much less severe than the Troika ones as I thought he was vindicated by the NO vote .....thats what the Greek people expected, they feel understandably betrayed. I would be seriously angry if I was Greek

[Zoraptor]

I don't blame Tsipras. His population wants the Euro, and any exit from it would rely on the goodwill of his neighbours and the EU, an unlikely commodity since Greece would have to default immediately on their loans. He cannot juggle the contradictory requirements of a situation that was caused by his predecessors and poor imposed policies/ lack of goodwill from the eurozone against the desires of his people for an end to austerity and remaining in the Euro. Since those requirements are contradictory and he didn't cause said contradictions I cannot blame him.

 

I'd also largely absolve the IMF at this point, they made mistakes, largely admitted them and don't want to compound them further. Can't really ask for more than that from them.

[BruceVC]

I don't blame Tsipras. His population wants the Euro, and any exit from it would rely on the goodwill of his neighbours and the EU, an unlikely commodity since Greece would have to default immediately on their loans. He cannot juggle the contradictory requirements of a situation that was caused by his predecessors and poor imposed policies/ lack of goodwill from the eurozone against the desires of his people for an end to austerity and remaining in the Euro. Since those requirements are contradictory and he didn't cause said contradictions I cannot blame him.

 

I'd also largely absolve the IMF at this point, they made mistakes, largely admitted them and don't want to compound them further. Can't really ask for more than that from them.

Okay fair enough so what was the purpose of the referendum and all the other theatrics like the trip to Russia?I think this was just part of the overall brinkmanship to make the Troika think he was serious about leaving the EU  and to hopefully get better terms around the loans ?

 

 

I

[Monte Carlo]

I don't blame Tsipras. His population wants the Euro, and any exit from it would rely on the goodwill of his neighbours and the EU, an unlikely commodity since Greece would have to default immediately on their loans. He cannot juggle the contradictory requirements of a situation that was caused by his predecessors and poor imposed policies/ lack of goodwill from the eurozone against the desires of his people for an end to austerity and remaining in the Euro. Since those requirements are contradictory and he didn't cause said contradictions I cannot blame him.

 

I'd also largely absolve the IMF at this point, they made mistakes, largely admitted them and don't want to compound them further. Can't really ask for more than that from them.

 

We can blame the bat-**** crazy Greek hive mind and, of course, the cretins who thought it was a great idea to allow Club Med into the euro in the first place.

[Darkpriest]

 

I don't blame Tsipras. His population wants the Euro, and any exit from it would rely on the goodwill of his neighbours and the EU, an unlikely commodity since Greece would have to default immediately on their loans. He cannot juggle the contradictory requirements of a situation that was caused by his predecessors and poor imposed policies/ lack of goodwill from the eurozone against the desires of his people for an end to austerity and remaining in the Euro. Since those requirements are contradictory and he didn't cause said contradictions I cannot blame him.

 

I'd also largely absolve the IMF at this point, they made mistakes, largely admitted them and don't want to compound them further. Can't really ask for more than that from them.

 

We can blame the bat-**** crazy Greek hive mind and, of course, the cretins who thought it was a great idea to allow Club Med into the euro in the first place.

 

 

Do not worry... socialism will eventually kill itself... those countries which had over 50years of pure socialism and governmental economics with 5year plans etc. know all too well how that road will end... everyone will be equally poor...

 

I like the idea of Free trade etc., but in the last 10-15 EU became more of a political beast, with tons of needless acts, bureaucracy, etc. that it will eventually collapse... there is way too much regulatory bodies and too many "socialistic" ideas. I liked EUR as a currency, but it needs to be implemented in countries, which have healthy fiscal policy and meet the convergence criteria... ALL THE TIME, and not like for example France, who decides to opt out of it once every 2-3 years to help their internal politics when some elections are coming etc. (although they start to suffer from that kind of internal politics)

 

If the data was fake, like in case of Greece, the only real solutions is for that country to leave the EUR zone, while remaining in EU zone, repair its economy, and then apply for EUR again, if they will ever want...

 

common currency has a lot of advantages, but it also has some disadvantages, and those disadvantages show, when economies are hit by an economic crisis. Then all the weaknesses in the structure of given economy show up, but they would not be this impactful, if you would be constantly running a healthy fiscal policy without a bloated governmental owned sector.

[Barothmuk]

Can't wait to see how the conservatives analyse TPP.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Can't wait to see how the conservatives analyse TPP.

They're going to be hailing it as a triumph of freedom.

Edited July 17, 2015 by KaineParker

[213374U]

Answer me this:

 

Greece gets a package to restructure debt that, in effect, allows Spain and Portugal to default and demand the same. EDIT - and stay in the Euro.

 

How do you manage northern Europe and the political reality that Germans, French, Dutch and others have to work harder and pay more taxes so southern Europe can keep on electing student politicians, retiring early and taking siestas? Who is going to vote for pro-European parties?

 

Why would they?

 

Club Med shouldn't be in the Euro. OK, my politics dictate that nobody should be in the Euro, but if you're gonna have one you need analogous economies to share a currency.

 

Work harder? Siestas? Well, let's take a look at the data [1] [2] [3] for a second.

 

So it turns out that Spaniards not only work longer hours than, say, Britons (and Germans!* Go go German diligence and work ethos!). We are also more productive while we're at it. We also have comparable official and effective retirement ages (fun fact: we retire later than them hard-working German übermenschen). So maybe let's start revising a few of these stereotypes? Or at least reference them a bit less. I'll just use my personal example. I don't always work weekends, but when I do, I work 15 hour a day shifts, in which I have to handle a workload that's split between three people during weekdays. And I do this on a part-time contract. I barely have time to take a dump and eat mate, let alone for siesta. Of course this is illegal and under-reported, but this sort of arrangement is fairly common.

 

Beyond that, I agree. Nobody should be in the ****ing Euro. Let northern Europe citizens decide if they want to loan Club Med south Europe banks more money, instead of having that **** decided by committee. It is their money, after all. We can't have them PIGS defaulting because, unlike Greece, the Eurozone couldn't soak it up, so Greece needs to be made an example of.

 

 

*Germans still have us beat in the productivity department though

[Monte Carlo]

Numbers, you know and I know that the endemic, low-level corruption in Spanish and Italian local government is a direct driver of low productivity. As for Greece...

 

I have friends working in Spain, nothing gets done without a bung.

 

It's part of the Latin malaise, and nothing you and I say can change it. Voting for student union Waaaahhhh! parties like Podema and Syriza won't change it either.

[melkathi]

I have friends working in Spain, nothing gets done without a bung.

 

Direct quote when I was trying to get electricity for my construction site:

"Look, since you are young and don't get it: I'd love to sign your permit, but nobody will believe I did it without getting paid off. So since they are going to say it ayway, I might as well take the money, right?"

[BruceVC]

 

I have friends working in Spain, nothing gets done without a bung.

 

Direct quote when I was trying to get electricity for my construction site:

"Look, since you are young and don't get it: I'd love to sign your permit, but nobody will believe I did it without getting paid off. So since they are going to say it ayway, I might as well take the money, right?"

 

Geez, is it really that bad ?

 

Did this happen to you personally or is this an exaggeration to enforce a point ? 

[Monte Carlo]

Nope, SOP in the PIGs

[melkathi]

 

 

I have friends working in Spain, nothing gets done without a bung.

 

Direct quote when I was trying to get electricity for my construction site:

"Look, since you are young and don't get it: I'd love to sign your permit, but nobody will believe I did it without getting paid off. So since they are going to say it ayway, I might as well take the money, right?"

 

Geez, is it really that bad ?

 

Did this happen to you personally or is this an exaggeration to enforce a point ? 

 

 

I no longer need to exaggerate

As I said direct quote from personal experience.

 

Working as an architect and trying to start a business has thrown me into almost every kafkaesque situation people can image. And then some.

[213374U]

Numbers, you know and I know that the endemic, low-level corruption in Spanish and Italian local government is a direct driver of low productivity. As for Greece...

 

I have friends working in Spain, nothing gets done without a bung.

 

It's part of the Latin malaise, and nothing you and I say can change it. Voting for student union Waaaahhhh! parties like Podema and Syriza won't change it either.

 

Oh, you bet. I disagree it's low-level, though. It's rampant, all-encompassing and systemic. It's also essentially cultural. To illustrate the point, one of the -very many- recent corruption scandals involves one of the top Catalan political families, who turns out have been demanding a bribe amounting to 3% of the price of any contract with the Catalan government since its inception, if the contractor wanted to get anywhere. This is a fraud calculated in billions we're talking about. Par for the course so far, right? Then the scion of the family gets indicted, his pops, the great symbol of Catalan nationalism and fighter of Spanish oppression is called to testify as a witness (because we don't actually dare charge him), and in one of the most culturally shameful displays I can remember, he is greeted by cheering crowds of people who were waiting for him to arrive at the court, who apparently applaud that he's been abusing his power and cheating them for 30+ years.

 

No, voting doesn't change anything because in order to make a name for yourself in politics, you need to be a pathological liar, a hypocrite and morally bankrupt so there is functionally no difference between candidates. It's these same mother****ers that ask for moar money from the ECB to cover their mismanagement, corruption and stupidity, not the loser that religiously pays his taxes and puts in 3+ unpaid extra hours every day, and gets to shoulder the burden of austerity for his trouble. But what alternative is there to voting? Taking the Bastille?

 

Funny that the romantically corrupt, bandit-idolizing culture is the least often referenced of applicable stereotypes, btw.

 

edit: heat melts mah brain

Edited July 18, 2015 by 213374U

[Ineth]

work longer hours

 

That's not very meaningful when comparing completely differently structured economies (e.g. manual labor vs office work; self-employment vs wage labor, etc.)