Greece, EU and why we can't have nice things

[Elerond]

Not sure if it's been posted yet, but from the horse's mouth: http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/06/minister-no-more/#more-8433

 

I shall wear the creditors’ loathing with pride.

Also, pretty funny to see Bruce defend "democracy" right up to the point where it is put into practice (cf. Crimea, Greece). Then it's all propaganda, manipulation, etc. Or, should I say, it would be funny if people recognized him for the poe that he is.

Funny, but not surprising. Say what you will about Bruce, but he's consistent about his disdain for self-rule and freedom.

 

 

Democracy is bit more complicate as are said issues here for example how Estonia's president commented Greece's referendum and their governments comments after it. 

 

"Gedankenexperiment in democracy: the other 18 €zone members hold referenda: "Do we raise our taxes to bail out Greece"? The odds of a yes?"

 

https://twitter.com/IlvesToomas/status/617795814530920448

[Sarex]

But countries are entities. Your argument is a de facto off-the-hook piece of theory crafting.

 

Bottom line - Greece, the country, made up of voters and politicians, happily accepted truckloads of EU cash from Northern Europe. They squandered it. They don't want to pay it back. As there is no shared European demos, not unnaturally the creditors are pissed off.

 

How that debt is structured and how fairly it's applied is another issue altogether. But the crux of the matter is that nation-states are responsible for collective economic decisions made by their government.

 

And on the flip side of that coin, if your country carries a big stick it can forgo all that responsibility, for their economic decisions or any other.

[BruceVC]

Not s

Funny, but not surprising. Say what you will about Bruce, but he's consistent about his disdain for self-rule and freedom.

 

 

Well if freedom and self-rule means you destroy your economy and cause your citizens to suffer, due to malfeasance and corruption, for years if not decades under economic hardship then I am opposed it ...you right KP 

 

 But we both know its more complicated than that  since the root causes of this Greek crisis have nothing to do with freedom but more to do with mismanagement, intransigence and demagoguery 

Edited July 6, 2015 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

 

 

Good point. I'm conflicted myself and find myself torn. On the one hand, Greece reneging on its debts is wrong. It rewards sloth and corruption. On the other, the EUs treatment of Greece is quasi-imperial, larded with self-interest. I'm a Hobbesian realist who also agrees with JSM. Hmmm.

 

What do you think?

 

I've found that it's harder to take sides if you stop treating countries as individuals and applying the same logic. "Greece" cannot renege on or pay its debts because it's an abstract entity, not a person, and it cannot act or make decisions. And once you begin digging into what is owed, to whom, why, and under what circumstances were those debts contracted, the issue becomes very muddled. Hell, even considering "Greeks" as a whole is silly, because you are lumping together an unskilled burger flipper that puts in 60 hours a week in two jobs for a pittance, an old lady that has to make do with a 400€ pension, and Papandreou.

 

Should the debt be repaid in full? Does it matter? It's all make-believe anyway... that's the real issue IMO.

 

 

 

 

Bottom line - Greece, the country, made up of voters and politicians, happily accepted truckloads of EU cash from Northern Europe. They squandered it. They don't want to pay it back. As there is no shared European demos, not unnaturally the creditors are pissed off.

 

 

 

Why are so many people on this thread battling to grasp or accept  such  simple and irrefutable truths about this Greek crisis...it truly stupefies me 

[Malcador]

There are legal and political realities where citizens of a region just can't have there own state or just breakaway and join another.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Well if freedom and self-rule means you destroy your economy and cause your citizens to suffer, due to malfeasance and corruption, for years if not decades under economic hardship then I am opposed it ...you right KP

Yes because destroying the economy and causing citizens to suffer because you accepted terms to impose austerity on an already depressed economy so you can get a loan you couldn't pay back is a very responsible thing to do. The former finance minister spoke of three ways Greece could pay off its debt in a sustainable manner in the video Messhugger linked, if you don't think he's right feel free to argue why he's wrong.

 

But it's good to know you think democracy is bad when people don't vote how you want them to.

 

 But we both know its more complicated than that  since the root causes of this Greek crisis have nothing to do with freedom but more to do with mismanagement, intransigence and demagoguery 

Yes, Germany has really been ****ing things up the last few years.

 

Anyways the referendum has plenty to do with self-rule which is a key component of freedom. Which given the posts the last few pages is what people are talking about ITT.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Well if freedom and self-rule means you destroy your economy and cause your citizens to suffer, due to malfeasance and corruption, for years if not decades under economic hardship then I am opposed it ...you right KP

Yes because destroying the economy and causing citizens to suffer because you accepted terms to impose austerity on an already depressed economy so you can get a loan you couldn't pay back is a very responsible thing to do. The former finance minister spoke of three ways Greece could pay off its debt in a sustainable manner in the video Messhugger linked, if you don't think he's right feel free to argue why he's wrong.

 

But it's good to know you think democracy is bad when people don't vote how you want them to.

 

 But we both know its more complicated than that  since the root causes of this Greek crisis have nothing to do with freedom but more to do with mismanagement, intransigence and demagoguery 

Yes, Germany has really been ****ing things up the last few years.

 

Anyways the referendum has plenty to do with self-rule which is a key component of freedom. Which given the posts the last few pages is what people are talking about ITT.

 

 

Ah yes the famous and fallacious " its Germany's fault and the Troika for insisting on terms and austerity "

 

Yet as usual this argument overlooks the obvious, why did the the Greek government need the initial loans? Because the government was about to go bankrupt...so once you again you cannot avoid the whole mismanagement of state institutions and finances  by the previous Greek government

 

Nice perspective KP, lets attack  the Germans for having a strong and growing economy and believing that for the EU  to succeed its member states have to adhere to certain rules and regulations. And lets also blame them for supporting  austerity when needed 

Edited July 6, 2015 by BruceVC

[Elerond]

 

Yes, Germany has really been ****ing things up the last few years.

 

Anyways the referendum has plenty to do with self-rule which is a key component of freedom. Which given the posts the last few pages is what people are talking about ITT.

 

 

Referendum also has lot of to do with that Greeks (as society) don't like cuts in their standard of living and their government asked of them do they want make those cuts or do they trust them in their claim that other euro countries will give them more money if they say no for the cuts. Which as seen by many (even by quite lot of euro area's political leaders) that Greece try to vote that other countries should pay their bills, which has seen as anti-freedom and anti-self-rule thing to do.

[HoonDing]

EU was a mistake. It's nothing but trash.

[Malcador]

EU was a mistake. It's nothing but trash.

Worked out well for France and Germany, no ?

[BruceVC]

 

 

Yes, Germany has really been ****ing things up the last few years.

 

Anyways the referendum has plenty to do with self-rule which is a key component of freedom. Which given the posts the last few pages is what people are talking about ITT.

 

 

Referendum also has lot of to do with that Greeks (as society) don't like cuts in their standard of living and their government asked of them do they want make those cuts or do they trust them in their claim that other euro countries will give them more money if they say no for the cuts. Which as seen by many (even by quite lot of euro area's political leaders) that Greece try to vote that other countries should pay their bills, which has seen as anti-freedom and anti-self-rule thing to do.

 

 

No Elerond...haven't you heard?

 

A Democracy is where you get to vote if you don't want to pay off your loans and then if you do vote this then the people who lent you the money must just adsorb your debt...

 

 

That's a Democracy because " people voted for this "  and if you don't agree with this you are opposed to freedom and self-rule 

[BruceVC]

EU was a mistake. It's nothing but trash.

 

Says the guy sitting nicely in his safe, prosperous and  comfortable first world country 

[HoonDing]

I'm immune to white guilt.

[cirdanx]

 

 

 

Well if freedom and self-rule means you destroy your economy and cause your citizens to suffer, due to malfeasance and corruption, for years if not decades under economic hardship then I am opposed it ...you right KP

Yes because destroying the economy and causing citizens to suffer because you accepted terms to impose austerity on an already depressed economy so you can get a loan you couldn't pay back is a very responsible thing to do. The former finance minister spoke of three ways Greece could pay off its debt in a sustainable manner in the video Messhugger linked, if you don't think he's right feel free to argue why he's wrong.

 

But it's good to know you think democracy is bad when people don't vote how you want them to.

 

 But we both know its more complicated than that  since the root causes of this Greek crisis have nothing to do with freedom but more to do with mismanagement, intransigence and demagoguery 

Yes, Germany has really been ****ing things up the last few years.

 

Anyways the referendum has plenty to do with self-rule which is a key component of freedom. Which given the posts the last few pages is what people are talking about ITT.

 

 

Ah yes the famous and fallacious " its Germany's fault and the Troika for insisting on terms and austerity "

 

Yet as usual this argument overlooks the obvious, why did the the Greek government need the initial loans? Because the government was about to go bankrupt...so once you again you cannot avoid the whole mismanagement of state institutions and finances  by the previous Greek government

 

Nice perspective KP, lets attack  the Germans for having a strong and growing economy and believing that for the EU  to succeed its member states have to adhere to certain rules and regulations. And lets also blame them for supporting  austerity when needed 

 

 

You are right that Greek was broke, but they were allready broke before and should have never been accepted into the EU by their standarts, didn´t bother germany much back then. I think you are right, that blaming germany is silly, there are way more factors, but germany is one of them.

 

Besides that, your last words...austerity doesn´t work. That is not a new revelation, infact they knew this 2 years ago as IMF documents showed back then:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/03/1176099/-Austerity-doesn-t-work-New-IMF-report-details-the-damage

 

Referendum also has lot of to do with that Greeks (as society) don't like cuts in their standard of living and their government asked of them do they want make those cuts or do they trust them in their claim that other euro countries will give them more money if they say no for the cuts. Which as seen by many (even by quite lot of euro area's political leaders) that Greece try to vote that other countries should pay their bills, which has seen as anti-freedom and anti-self-rule thing to do.

 

 

You are not wrong, but their standart of living has allready been run into the ground thru years of austerity. How much can you cut until the majority of people are living in poverty? Where should the money come from? Looking at the planed payback and greece´s budget it is obvious they can´t pay. And if you lend someone money, who clearly can not pay it back, then you are as responsible for for the loss as the guy taking the money.

[Elerond]

EU was a mistake. It's nothing but trash.

 

That depends on perspective, EU made it possible that Finland was able to rise quite fast from its economical turmoil, as it make sure that European markets were stable, easy to access and level of bureaucracy dropped significantly, which made fast economical growth a possibility. But of course economical disparity between EU countries also created situations that caused and still cause problems that didn't exist before EU at least in same scale. And of course there has been things of seer stupidity on the way and some on the horizon, but overall EU has produced more good than bad for the Finland at least, although now some people start to see it more a hindrance than asset. 

[213374U]

But countries are entities. Your argument is a de facto off-the-hook piece of theory crafting.

 

Bottom line - Greece, the country, made up of voters and politicians, happily accepted truckloads of EU cash from Northern Europe. They squandered it. They don't want to pay it back. As there is no shared European demos, not unnaturally the creditors are pissed off.

 

How that debt is structured and how fairly it's applied is another issue altogether. But the crux of the matter is that nation-states are responsible for collective economic decisions made by their government.

 

There is no "bottom line", and claiming otherwise is an oversimplification. There is no simple "they". That's my point.

 

Do you read and vote over every bit of budget legislation that is passed in the UK? Do you make sure that all deals that involve the government are done in perfect accordance to the law of the land? Do you watch over government officials to make sure they act in the best interests of the people? Not only you don't do that, you couldn't do it even if you wanted to. And yet, you are supposed to assume responsibility for your political representatives' mistakes, abuses, corruption and general idiocy, under the terms of a social contract that you were never given an option not to sign. Not just you, but also those who, unlike yourself, lack the ability to make informed political decisions.

 

(I'm a master theorycraftsman, I'll have you know)

 

 

 

Democracy is bit more complicate as are said issues here for example how Estonia's president commented Greece's referendum and their governments comments after it. 

 

"Gedankenexperiment in democracy: the other 18 €zone members hold referenda: "Do we raise our taxes to bail out Greece"? The odds of a yes?"

 

https://twitter.com/IlvesToomas/status/617795814530920448

 

By all means, hold referendums throughout the EU! That would of course inevitably lead to the immediate breakup of the EU. Yes, that would be democracy. At its worst, democracy is the rule of the stupid, the cowardly and the selfish. In spite of that, I would never dare claim that German taxpayers shouldn't have a say in how their government spends money. What is your point? Some things are too important to decide democratically?

 

Might as well boot up Skynet already.

 

 

 

Referendum also has lot of to do with that Greeks (as society) don't like cuts in their standard of living and their government asked of them do they want make those cuts or do they trust them in their claim that other euro countries will give them more money if they say no for the cuts.

 

(emphasis mine)

 

This is a good point, and one of the common complaints leveled against the referendum. A clear, unequivocal question could have stuck the government (even more) between a rock and a hard place. If they had asked whether to reject any conditions imposed by international creditors that were deemed unfair and/or unfeasible regardless of consequences, even if it means leaving the eurozone, the referendum might have gone differently — though I personally doubt it. As it stands the question posed was an unintelligible mess and pointless because the terms alluded to therein no longer applied after defaulting on june 30th.

Edited July 6, 2015 by 213374U

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Ah yes the famous and fallacious " its Germany's fault and the Troika for insisting on terms and austerity "

If it's fallacious prove why austerity is good and Greece is wrong.

 

Yet as usual this argument overlooks the obvious, why did the the Greek government need the initial loans? Because the government was about to go bankrupt...so once you again you cannot avoid the whole mismanagement of state institutions and finances  by the previous Greek government

Compounded by adopting the Euro which caused a large trade deficit. Not to mention that the money from the bailouts have largely gone to financial institutions rather than Greeks.

 

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/7/1/greek-bailout-money-went-to-banks-not-greece.html

 

Nice perspective KP, lets attack  the Germans for having a strong and growing economy and believing that for the EU  to succeed its member states have to adhere to certain rules and regulations. And lets also blame them for supporting  austerity when needed 

Austerity isn't needed, quite the contrary it's actively harmful to a depressed economy. The terms Germany is pushing for won't result in a Greece that is able to pay its debts, if the last five years have been any indication it will just perpetuate the situation of slow growth and kick the can down the road.

[Gfted1]

So, serious question. Why doesn't Greece just start pumping some of that black gold? They could turn the whole thing around in ~7 years, be running a surplus in 10. I mean, its a lot of money to repay and to rebuild infrastructure and whatnot, but its not that much. Were only talking 242B Euro, right?

[Elerond]

 

Democracy is bit more complicate as are said issues here for example how Estonia's president commented Greece's referendum and their governments comments after it. 

 

"Gedankenexperiment in democracy: the other 18 €zone members hold referenda: "Do we raise our taxes to bail out Greece"? The odds of a yes?"

 

https://twitter.com/IlvesToomas/status/617795814530920448

 

By all means, hold referendums throughout the EU! That would of course inevitably lead to the immediate breakup of the EU. Yes, that would be democracy. At its worst, democracy is the rule of the stupid, the cowardly and the selfish. In spite of that, I would never dare claim that German taxpayers shouldn't have a say in how their government spends money. What is your point? Some things are too important to decide democratically?

 

Might as well boot up Skynet already.

 

Point is that even though that Greece is independent country, they are part of union which they joined voluntary and which rules they now have problems with. So when they organize referendum where they ask should they follow rules of that union or not, then question rises how democratic that referendum is when citizens of other member states of the union aren't part of that referendum, because as referendum now stands it is minority of citizen of union voting about how much rules of the said union tie them and still assume that other member states of union still follow rules of as they currently stand. Of course this is whole thing put in very simply and really don't reflect reality as it is, but it reflects as much reality as claims that Greece referendum is some sort example of democracy and people's will.

 

If topic of Greece's referendum would had been do Greece exit said union or do they continue be members in said union then it would had been much simpler issue and one that definitely is something that people of Greece have right to decide, but as it now it is very difficult to say what referendum was about in first place and was it about something that is matters of Greece or something that is matters of said union.

 

And yes I think people should have right to say how their governments spent their money, but I also acknowledge that when country is member of union that it has voluntary and by democratic process joined, then people of that country/state have voluntary relinquished some of their ability to control how things are run at least as long as they continue to be members of that union.

 

And I would say that somethings are too complex to decide with direct democracy, because people don't usually have enough knowledge about those subjects to cast informed vote which is why most democratic countries use representative democracy and people usually only vote about their representatives and issues that would fundamentally change how country is run.

 

But anyway I hope that there there will be resolution for this crisis that allow Greece recover their economic turmoil relatively fast and with relatively little damage to people of Greece and with out significant economical and/or political damage to union. I quite dislike rhetorics that currently surround topic especially from Greece's, Finland's, France's, and Germany's leaders, because all the huffing and puffing about people's need to pay their debts, evil institutions, throwing blame every direction, etc. don't help anyway in solving the crisis, they are just useless distraction that only let situation get worse. But as myself don't have any real answers or power to solve situation, I am forced to hope that those that currently have mandate from people to govern our nations will actually use their power to find solution that will work best for our short and long run interests and execute that solution so that it actually will work.

[Ineth]

EU was a mistake. It's nothing but trash.

 

Opening the intra-European borders (for both people and goods) was a great idea.

 

But they could have done that using a straightforward multilateral treaties, without establishing the undemocratic and totally-out-of-control bureaucratic monster that is Brussels, and without establishing a common currency.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Ineth

[Meshugger]

So, serious question. Why doesn't Greece just start pumping some of that black gold? They could turn the whole thing around in ~7 years, be running a surplus in 10. I mean, its a lot of money to repay and to rebuild infrastructure and whatnot, but its not that much. Were only talking 242B Euro, right?

 

That's because Hellenic Petroleum, its subsidiaries and others do pay little to no taxes. They pretty much dictate the policy in greece along with the army and the barons of the naval industry. Even Varoufakis himself have said so.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Meshugger

[213374U]

Point is that even though that Greece is independent country, they are part of union which they joined voluntary and which rules they now have problems with. So when they organize referendum where they ask should they follow rules of that union or not, then question rises how democratic that referendum is when citizens of other member states of the union aren't part of that referendum, because as referendum now stands it is minority of citizen of union voting about how much rules of the said union tie them and still assume that other member states of union still follow rules of as they currently stand. Of course this is whole thing put in very simply and really don't reflect reality as it is, but it reflects as much reality as claims that Greece referendum is some sort example of democracy and people's will.

 

Which rules are you referring to, in particular? The same ones that are changed literally on the fly when it's convenient for France and Germany decided they aren't such a good idea? The same rules that weren't really so closely enforced when it was politically expedient to allow Greek accession?

 

Further, I don't know of any EU treaty that precludes national referendums or forces member countries to accept economic impositions from non-EU entities with no recourse. Illegal impositions, btw, as the IMF a) acted in bad faith, b) blatantly ignored their own Guidelines and Articles of Agreement and c) disregarded their own internal Debt Sustainability Analyses that predicted an increase in debt-to-GDP ratio as a result of the measures but released fake figures to go ahead with the program anyway.

 

 

 

And yes I think people should have right to say how their governments spent their money, but I also acknowledge that when country is member of union that it has voluntary and by democratic process joined, then people of that country/state have voluntary relinquished some of their ability to control how things are run at least as long as they continue to be members of that union.

 

And I would say that somethings are too complex to decide with direct democracy, because people don't usually have enough knowledge about those subjects to cast informed vote which is why most democratic countries use representative democracy and people usually only vote about their representatives and issues that would fundamentally change how country is run.

 

As for the first, you are right, and yet way off the mark. The Greek government isn't messing with exchange or interest rates, as those are exclusive ECB prerogatives which Greece agreed to give up when they joined the EU. "Some of their ability" doesn't mean "all of their ability", and in this case the Greek government is simply exercising its remaining sovereignty. I like the "comply or GTFO" undertone in your statements, though.

 

Regarding the second, the only valid criteria is one of importance. If an issue is both important enough to warrant popular vote and complex enough that the people at large can't make heads or tails of it, then you have an uneducated populace that simply cannot sustain a democracy, the same way that a child that cannot handle his own affairs needs to rely on parents. So we either accept that peoples are masters of their own fate, or they aren't and must be ruled by wise men committees and enlightened despots. "Only sometimes" isn't a solution. Especially when, in this context, you don't want people to make the call and yet you expect them to meekly suffer the consequences.

 

edit: I really need to be less of an ****

Edited July 7, 2015 by 213374U

[cirdanx]

 

EU was a mistake. It's nothing but trash.

 

Opening the intra-European borders (for both people and goods) was a great idea.

 

But they could have done that using a straightforward multilateral treaties, without establishing the undemocratic and totally-out-of-control bureaucratic monster that is Brussels, and without establishing a common currency.

 

 

No the borders were a horrible idea. It just opened the gates for smuggling and crime. We see this now in the current immigrant crisis on how easy it is to get into countries. Crime rates have been on a constant rise here since we opened the borders.

 

The funny part ist that the G7 conference is a good example for this. In that insanely short time, they made controls as they did before. The result, they catched 135 with open arrest warrants and registered almost 11 thousand(!) violations of the residence act and other things. I would rather take the nuisance of controls on borders than just open them up like this.

 

Thats the point a lot of people forget. We allready had treaties across europe, building upon them, in- and export could have been easier. But it also has a negative side, because of the easy import now we get a lot of cheap stuff, but that also has a backlash on the local small and middle economy. Unfortunally we can´t really do anything about it because the EU dictates these rules. Awesome.

 

And the common currency...a country without it´s own currency has no saying on the market and has no direct control on it´s economy. A currency can be used as a tool to stimulate your economy directly. Elrond here should know that, Finnland has devaluated it´s currency in the past very often to help them out of hard times. Can´t do that anymore, just like Greece is stuck with a Euro that is way to strong and hurts them even more. A common currency for so many different countries, with as many different GDP´s, wealth, laws etc. was the dumbest thing ever. If i could go back in time i would strangle our politicans for tricking us into it.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Well if freedom and self-rule means you destroy your economy and cause your citizens to suffer, due to malfeasance and corruption, for years if not decades under economic hardship then I am opposed it ...you right KP

Yes because destroying the economy and causing citizens to suffer because you accepted terms to impose austerity on an already depressed economy so you can get a loan you couldn't pay back is a very responsible thing to do. The former finance minister spoke of three ways Greece could pay off its debt in a sustainable manner in the video Messhugger linked, if you don't think he's right feel free to argue why he's wrong.

 

But it's good to know you think democracy is bad when people don't vote how you want them to.

 

 But we both know its more complicated than that  since the root causes of this Greek crisis have nothing to do with freedom but more to do with mismanagement, intransigence and demagoguery 

Yes, Germany has really been ****ing things up the last few years.

 

Anyways the referendum has plenty to do with self-rule which is a key component of freedom. Which given the posts the last few pages is what people are talking about ITT.

 

 

Ah yes the famous and fallacious " its Germany's fault and the Troika for insisting on terms and austerity "

 

Yet as usual this argument overlooks the obvious, why did the the Greek government need the initial loans? Because the government was about to go bankrupt...so once you again you cannot avoid the whole mismanagement of state institutions and finances  by the previous Greek government

 

Nice perspective KP, lets attack  the Germans for having a strong and growing economy and believing that for the EU  to succeed its member states have to adhere to certain rules and regulations. And lets also blame them for supporting  austerity when needed 

 

 

You are right that Greek was broke, but they were allready broke before and should have never been accepted into the EU by their standarts, didn´t bother germany much back then. I think you are right, that blaming germany is silly, there are way more factors, but germany is one of them.

 

Besides that, your last words...austerity doesn´t work. That is not a new revelation, infact they knew this 2 years ago as IMF documents showed back then:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/03/1176099/-Austerity-doesn-t-work-New-IMF-report-details-the-damage

 

 

People keep saying "austerity doesn't work, its been proven " 

 

This is a fundamental and relevant point and one I disagree with. Lets take Spain, yes they still have a high unemployment and high government debt but there economy is on the rebound despite what people like 2133 will  tell you. There banking sector is healthy and they have the one of the fastest growing economies in the EU 

 

http://www.brandonsun.com/business/breaking-news/moodys-raises-outlook-for-spains-banks-to-positive-ending-7-year-negative-rating-308123421.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/07/02/world/europe/ap-eu-spain-economy.html?_r=0

 

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/20/spains-improving-economy-is-not-reaching-everyone

 

 

And then we have Ireland which left the bailout program end of the 2013 and is fastest growing economy in the EU 

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/01/07/irelands-post-bailout-bonds-blowout/

 

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-to-be-fastest-growing-euro-area-economy-in-2015-1.2062814

 

Ireland also went through difficult austerity and came through stronger despite issues around social security cuts ....so to keep saying " austerity doesn't work"  simply doesn't reflect the reality. I'm not saying its not hard ....but that is not the same thing as saying it doesn't work 

 

 

http://news.yahoo.com/ireland-preparing-lift-austerity-measures-043224486.html;_ylt=A0LEVy9aX5tVqIEABOFXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByMHZ0NG9yBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM3BHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--

Edited July 7, 2015 by BruceVC

[Darkpriest]

 

There are legal and political realities where citizens of a region just can't have there own state or just breakaway and join another.

I wonder. Do Brits want their 13 colonies back? I am not sure it was legal to break off by some crazy people back in the time. Hating tea is not good enough reason one would think...