white march news

[Luckmann]

 

So you have a feel about others feels regarding feels, Strawnir?

 

Good stuff.

 

Meanwhile, the forum continues to not care. I'm not sure why you even continue to try to defend Sawyer, when I think practically everyone else is aware of the fact that Romances and Strongholds simply do not compare in the way he suggested.

 

after your most recent strawman faux pas, one wonders why you would continue embarrassing yourself with the strawnir nonsense.  am still looking for that josh post where he says he hates romances.

 

in any even, Gromnir didn't make a feel argument.  we were rational, which is difficult for you.  we noted that even if obsidian had no hard evidence to explain their belief that strongholds is disliked by many, that still leaves 'em with their own feel impressions which appear to conflict with yours.  so, as between embracing your feel and the collective feel o' the developers, why would the obsidians choose your feel argument over their own impressions?

 

am not sure how we can make this stuff any more simple for you.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Well first, I thought it was settled that Gkathellar mixed Avellone and Sawyer up? I do remember something about that Stretch Goal too, though, but that could've been Avellone too, I don't remember.

 

Second, I don't think you could be rational even if you were assimilated to the Borg Collective or spent a decade in a Vulcan prison camp. You don't have it in you.

 

Third, their feelings on the matter really don't matter for the argument that was brought forth, the comparison between romances and strongholds that was made. They don't compare in the least. That's not a feeling, Strawnir - and if you had anything else to go on in the argument, rather than "feels", deflection and belittling, you would've brought it up already. Not even the blindest of dedicated sawyerites can defend that, and you know it.

[Gromnir]

*chuckle*

 

is funny.  you actual is gonna try and throw gk under the bus?  gk simple observed that a particular action by josh were weird 'cause o' what he thought were josh hate o' romance.

 

you, on the other hand, did actual strawman. we need review?  

 

"Yet I've yet to see that many oppose strongholds as a concept at it's most fundamental level, and to even compare it to romances is just hyperbole, especially considering that Sawyer hates romances himself. I think that in this case, it's really just another representation of his irrational hangups that have marred the game."

 

you did not attribute your misconception to gk at the time or thereafter.  furthermore, you used the mistake as evidence that josh has irrational hangups that marred the game.  that is classic strawman.   oh, and there were no confusion by gk of sawyer and avellone as the quote we posted from avellone were clear new to him.  is possible that he got his preconception from other sources who were confusing sawyer and avellone, but the one avellone quote we can find that is anti-romance were clear not what motivated gk's personal error.

 

regardless, is a cowardly way to escape error.  and your error does not diminish the strawman.  even if you wanted to go all spineless and blame gk, it would still be your strawman.

 

your second and third points... well point 2 ain't a point, and point 3 is so typical irrational,  your feel is not feel 'cause they is based on experience? "No, what we've got is experience on these boards, Gromnir."  that was your response to our criticism that you were using feel. obsidian feel is based on... what?  less than your impressions gleaned from board experience?  they got a multitude o' developers who has worked on games that included strongholds. they have more experience. IF your feel is not feel, than neither is theirs.  if experience monitoring boards is not feel, then why would obsidian choose your experience over theirs? on the other hand, if your board impressions is nothing more than feel, then why on earth would your feel be superior to the collective impressions o' cain, sawyer, urquhart and other?  any rational attempt to look at this has your arguments being shredded. 

 

*shakes head sadly*

 

as we noted earlier, is nothing wrong with using other than rational.  the problem is when folks who ain't rational is believing that they is.  thanks for illustrating... again.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Luckmann]

*chuckle*

 

is funny.  you actual is gonna try and throw gk under the bus?  gk simple observed that a particular action by josh were weird 'cause o' what he thought were josh hate o' romance.

 

you, on the other hand, did actual strawman. we need review?  

 

"Yet I've yet to see that many oppose strongholds as a concept at it's most fundamental level, and to even compare it to romances is just hyperbole, especially considering that Sawyer hates romances himself. I think that in this case, it's really just another representation of his irrational hangups that have marred the game."

 

you did not attribute your misconception to gk at the time or thereafter.  furthermore, you used the mistake as evidence that josh has irrational hangups that marred the game.  that is classic strawman.   oh, and there were no confusion by gk of sawyer and avellone as the quote we posted from avellone were clear new to him.  is possible that he got his preconception from other sources who were confusing sawyer and avellone, but the one avellone quote we can find that is anti-romance were clear not what motivated gk's personal error.

 

regardless, is a cowardly way to escape error.  and your error does not diminish the strawman.  even if you wanted to go all spineless and blame gk, it would still be your strawman.

 

your second and third points... well point 2 ain't a point, and point 3 is so typical irrational,  your feel is not feel 'cause they is based on experience? "No, what we've got is experience on these boards, Gromnir."  that was your response to our criticism that you were using feel. obsidian feel is based on... what?  less than your impressions gleaned from board experience?  they got a multitude o' developers who has worked on games that included strongholds. they have more experience. IF your feel is not feel, than neither is theirs.  if experience monitoring boards is not feel, then why would obsidian choose your experience over theirs? on the other hand, if your board impressions is nothing more than feel, then why on earth would your feel be superior to the collective impressions o' cain, sawyer, urquhart and other?  any rational attempt to look at this has your arguments being shredded. 

 

*shakes head sadly*

 

as we noted earlier, is nothing wrong with using other than rational.  the problem is when folks who ain't rational is believing that they is.  thanks for illustrating... again.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I.. what? I wasn't throwing Gkathellar under the bus. He even said it himself! Gkathellar confused Sawyer and Avellone, and I followed suit because he brought it up. When Gkathellar said he got them mixed up, I realized the mistake, but how is that relevant? Classic Strawnir. Someone makes a largely unrelated mistake, and you bring it up as some core part of an argument in an attempt to deflect from the issue. Classic.

 

And nope, not a strawman. Just a mistake, which I'm perfectly all right with admitting. It in no way changes the issue with the hangups marring the game, because it was just "yet another". In this case I was mistaken, so.. my bad? I didn't attribute it to Gkathellar, because why would I? He got them mixed up, and I mixed them up in turn. You're obsessed with assigning blame, thinking others are too, but I'm not blaming Gkathellar for anything, I was merely explaining why I erred, and I have no problems with admitting that. I screwed up that part. It doesn't actually change anything, but there you have it. You want an apology for that? I'm sorry.

 

Does that make you feel better?

 

As for the ol' feel argument, Strawnir, the issue was that Sawyer made a claim with no basis in reality. You've inferred a great deal there, whereas the very rational thing to do is to look at what we know. You say he's pulling on this or that experience, here or there, and these people and those people, but it's all conjecture at best, baseless assumptions at worst. Like I've said, if you had an argument to make, besides deflection or belittling others, you would've made it already. Supposedly, it's some great debate, a contentious issue, comparable to romances, yet there is no evidence to support that.

 

No megathreads. No flamewars. No pitchforks or irrational harangues on either side. No moderator-enforced reigning in of the two camps. And that's still completely beside the fact that the main issue is still that one is in the game, the other is not, and so comparing them and using it as an excuse as to why it's not being worked on, or as a defence as to it's sucky-ness is nothing short of ridiculous and childish. Even if the roles were reversed, it would still be unacceptable. And I say that as someone that hates romances as a concept.

 

You keep calling this feels, but at the end, you still have nothing, zero and nil to support your argument, while the very absence of an ongoing stronghold controversy speaks for itself. The silence is deafening. Again, Strawnir, why do you even keep pushing this? And you keep doing it everywhere, whether it's this specific issue or something else, picking fights like a dementia patient having flashbacks at a convention. Someone call the keepers.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Luckmann

[Gromnir]

*eye roll*

 

you serious do not understand strawman.  there is no intent attribute.  did you attribute a weak argument to sawyer which he did not make? yes.  did you then use that false attribution to diminish sawyer's position?  yes.

 

" It doesn't matter whether the misrepresentation or distortion is accidental and due to misunderstanding the argument or is intentional and aimed at making it easier to refute. Either way, one commits the straw man fallacy." -- from the skeptic's dictionary

 

am getting tired explaining.  there would almost never be a strawman fallacy if we eliminated any and all mistakes.  you thought that is what sawyer said?  doesn't matter.  if you heard somewhere in an interview you cannot recall?  don't matter.  if you assumed, based on a stretch goal you cannot actual point to at the moment that...

 

HA!

 

at least if you could point to something sawyer said and then claim that your misinterpretation were reasonable, we could see nullification o' strawman.  is one o' the failures o' logic that two people can read the same thing and come to different conclusions as to meaning.  is often a reason why accusations o' strawman is misplaced on these boards.  person 1 says "X."  person 2 reads "X" and understands it to mean "Y."  yell "strawman" every time somebody misreads or misunderstands that which is subject to multiple meanings is a ridiculous use o' strawman.  even when is technical accurate strawman, is still often a silly criticism given the fluidity o' language.

 

you didn't misinterpret.

 

oh, and change the syllogism.  change so that you are mere identifying gk observation about josh hate of romances, then use gk observation to conclude that, "I think that in this case, it's really just another representation of his irrational hangups that have marred the game."  well guess what, you has simple taken one logic fallacy and replaced it with another.  is still a loss.

 

oh well, by inches we will get you to learn the fallacy you so love to spam (incorrect.)

 

 

the rest is meaningless.  honest.  your personal message board impressions is a feel arguement, but even if you ridiculous bootstrap such silliness into legitimacy, there ain't no way you is gonna convince anybody that your message board experience is qualitatively better than sawyer's much less o' the combined impressions o' the obsidian collective which sawyer is having access to.  you sure as hell can't prove some kinda luckman superiority o' board experience impressions. so, the obsidian developers made a choice for strongholds based on hard data or impressions from their years o' experience.  in either case, is no reason to see your experience as superior.  alternatives? 

 

again, you are being irrational.  is precisely 'cause you are using irrational arguments and irrational thinking that Gromnir cannot prove to you where is the flaws in your reasoning.  you don't have data or game tester observations.  you got impressions from board experience.  You is the one that needs prove. you gotta somehow prove to the obsidians that your gut-feels based on all your invaluable board experience is better than their feel. so, get cracking on that.  is hopeless, but am curious to see you struggle... more.

 

and keep working on strawman.  you will reach enlightenment.  almost by accident you is gonna need be right eventually.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 19, 2015 by Gromnir

[Nakia]

I think that because the 2.x patch and expansion where announced but no further information has been given we are feeling a bit agitated.

As far as critiquing PoE goes as don't care who is responsible for what.  I play a lot of games and have no idea of the name of the Leads" names.  Sure I can check the credits but it isn't important to me when it comes to critiquing the game.  I am critiquing the game not the individual.

 

Now back to the Stronghold, some of us like playing house and some of us don't.  That is fine.  A lot of work went into the Stronghold but it is my feeling that OE bit off more than it could chew.  I do think they did a good job with what they were able to do.  My quarrel is currently that the Stronghold is NOT optional and we were told that it is.  I don't mind being told to go there to find some guy named Maerwald who might be able to help me.  I go there and after being forced to kill the guy I suddenly find through no choice of my own I own the bloody thing.   Right there for me the role playing aspect breaks down.   It seems that anyone wanting to travel from the north west part of the map to the south has to go through the Stronghold.  The road to Defiance Bay is blocked unless you repair the Eastern Bastion.  Hold on there if this is my stronghold I don't want a bunch of strangers traipsing through the place.  My imagination goes into overdrive.  Then I find that my excess party members get stuck in a an insect, rodent infested ruing.   Living conditions are atrocious if I don't fix the place up.  Even if I just fix the main keep, the barracks and Brighthold I get attacked by things.  Od Nua is also supposed to be optional but if you want to do it you have to repair the blasted Eastern Bastion.  Sure the Bastion is a freebie but my character still has to tell that poor entombed steward to do it.  I am now in possession of a albatross.

 

The Stronghold is not optional!  That is my opinion, my feeling, my thoughts.

[Gromnir]

I think that because the 2.x patch and expansion where announced but no further information has been given we are feeling a bit agitated.

As far as critiquing PoE goes as don't care who is responsible for what.  I play a lot of games and have no idea of the name of the Leads" names.  Sure I can check the credits but it isn't important to me when it comes to critiquing the game.  I am critiquing the game not the individual.

 

Now back to the Stronghold, some of us like playing house and some of us don't.  That is fine.  A lot of work went into the Stronghold but it is my feeling that OE bit off more than it could chew.  I do think they did a good job with what they were able to do.  My quarrel is currently that the Stronghold is NOT optional and we were told that it is.  I don't mind being told to go there to find some guy named Maerwald who might be able to help me.  I go there and after being forced to kill the guy I suddenly find through no choice of my own I own the bloody thing.   Right there for me the role playing aspect breaks down.   It seems that anyone wanting to travel from the north west part of the map to the south has to go through the Stronghold.  The road to Defiance Bay is blocked unless you repair the Eastern Bastion.  Hold on there if this is my stronghold I don't want a bunch of strangers traipsing through the place.  My imagination goes into overdrive.  Then I find that my excess party members get stuck in a an insect, rodent infested ruing.   Living conditions are atrocious if I don't fix the place up.  Even if I just fix the main keep, the barracks and Brighthold I get attacked by things.  Od Nua is also supposed to be optional but if you want to do it you have to repair the blasted Eastern Bastion.  Sure the Bastion is a freebie but my character still has to tell that poor entombed steward to do it.  I am now in possession of a albatross.

 

The Stronghold is not optional!  That is my opinion, my feeling, my thoughts.

going to the stronghold and doing the critical path quest is not optional.  that is a good thing, no?  place the stronghold at a critical path quest point that cannot be accidental overlooked means that the player will be guaranteed to have stronghold features available to him, regardless o' the desire to use.  is too much paternalism?  dunno.  optional or not, the stronghold required considerable developer resources and were a stretch goal.  perhaps have stronghold be part o' raedrics hold quest and there is the possibility that folks will miss.  am understanding why developers wouldn't want the option to miss.

 

in any event, all o' the stronghold features is optional.  you do indeed need fix eastern bastion... for free.  fixing forces you to use stronghold interface at least once... no accidental mss. is that single critical path construction transformative?  do you need become embroiled in stronghold by fixing the eastern bastion? you need not use any additional stronghold features.  you don't need rest.  you don't need hirelings.  you need not build a single hall or hedge or wall beyond the initial freebie. you don't need concern self.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nakia]

 Gromnir, I am well aware that fixing the Stronghold up is optional and I am well aware of the time and resources the developers put into the stronghold.  My reactions to the stronghold are simply my own.  this is a role playing game and the stronghold jars with me.    That is my opinion which is not right or wrong for others. How I feel doesn't affect how others feel and how they feel doesn't affect how I feel.  I am merely expressing my opinion.  You are free to have your own opinions and to consider my reactions irrational, stupid or just plain dumb.  Doesn't change anything.

[Gromnir]

 Gromnir, I am well aware that fixing the Stronghold up is optional and I am well aware of the time and resources the developers put into the stronghold.  My reactions to the stronghold are simply my own.  this is a role playing game and the stronghold jars with me.    That is my opinion which is not right or wrong for others. How I feel doesn't affect how others feel and how they feel doesn't affect how I feel.  I am merely expressing my opinion.  You are free to have your own opinions and to consider my reactions irrational, stupid or just plain dumb.  Doesn't change anything.

am not criticizing.  am more curious about a sequel implementation.  how would one improve given what we have seen?  for instance, we see some question positioning o' the stronghold on the crit path.  similarly, we could see divorcing any mention o' stronghold responsibilities from the critical path. how would such impact gameplay?  thats what we were kinda discussing, yes?

 

is not genuine white march news, so is kinda off-topic, but if folks wanna genuine consider future improvements, am game... as it were.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nakia]

For reasons I will not go into a future sequel is not a priority for me.  Since we are like vultures in the wilderness waiting for news I don't think going off topic matters much.  We don't have a topic to discuss so why not the stronghold?  

 

As I said a lot of time and effort went into the stronghold.  There are possible twelve quests.  I have only done a few never completed all of them.  Everyone has his or her own opinion as to how the stronghold can be improved.

 

For me more life in the stronghold would be a big improvident.  A cook and maid for Brighthollow.  A couple of servants for the main keep.  They would need to be placed carefully to avoid fighting.  A librarian even if they don't give any quests would I think help.  If they added quests this would be a plus.  Make the place look like somewhere people actually live.

 

For a sequel I would change the crafting and enchanting system and make the lab a real lab for crafting and enchanting.  Changing the buildings and other environmental things would mean remaking the stronghold grounds and although I might think it could be a bit different it also might be counter-productive.

 

Someone suggested making possible to choose a deity for the chapel.  Question is in a sequel how important will those created gods be especially if we are continuing the adventures of the Watcher.

 

For a sequel since Caed Nua is supposed to be influential in the area  I would add farmlands, a settlement and maybe interaction with the Glanfaths.

 

People have also suggested giving a bit of story to the quests available for the excess party members.  That might help.

 

Edit: Oh and in a sequel make a road around the Stronghold to get to Defiance Bay.  I do not want caravans of traders and potential enemies wandering through my stronghold.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Nakia

[Lord_Mord]

 

 Since we are like vultures in the wilderness waiting for news I don't think going off topic matters much.  We don't have a topic to discuss so why not the stronghold?

 

Offtopic, OK. But this is getting creepy.

[Gromnir]

as there is still no news, we observe a few o' our issues with the stronghold.

 

the stronghold ultimately were 'bout as exciting as a take-out menu.  sure, there we loads o' options, but most o' em were having little appeal.  the warden building were giving value 'cause the bounties were offering much in the way o' cash, experience and equipment.  the curio shops and gardens were worthy too.  most o' the other stuff?  *shrug*  am understanding that the stronghold were 'sposed to be a sink, but we saw only a very limited number o' options as providing value.  on the positive side, it sounds as if the rest bonuses is getting increased significantly and the duration o' stronghold bonuses will be lengthened. 

 

also, while josh noted that many folks dislike strongholds, we do not believe that the poe stronghold is gonna change anybody's opinions.  the ordinary interactions we had with the stronghold were annoyance factors.  while off doing some quest, we get a message that we will be attacked in 3 days by trolls or skeletons or levitating, psychic, spider-people.  heck, perhaps we get a message that in spite o' the fact that we got over 40 security and as many hierlings as possible, one o' our prisoners escaped.  am still not certain what triggered the special goods merchant, but hey, after functional waiting 20 game hours before we got another opportunity to buy his stuff, he offered us nothing we would actual wanna use.  sure, is not as if we were forced to buy, but perhaps offer us 3 options and let us pick one would work a bit better to be ensuring we would get some value from the so infrequent special goods merchant. converse, the "fun" o' the stronghold were extreme limited: a few o' the bounty battles were challenging and the ogre hierling had a couple quirky comments to be making.  the most common interaction with the stronghold were a rather mechanical opportunity to pay for improvements, and those improvements were offering a prestige or security value, neither o' which ultimate meant much to us.

 

the aforementioned prisoner aspect struck us as being woeful underdeveloped, and as noted earlier, am not certain how the escape chance were generated.  even so, the prison/jail were actual one o' the few stronghold features, other than warden bounty fights, the struck us as having the capacity to be entertaining.  take folks prisoners and potential ransom them, or sell 'em to slavers or shady animancers... which were a redundant descriptor as far as we could tell. prisoners actual offered some feedback when prompted.  were one o' the better features, but it were underused.  is an ideal place where a couple minor quests could' been added... or perhaps give select prisoners a chance to join as unpaid hirelings, who might then escape or betray you or whatever.   

 

"now what?"  ok, so we buy all the building options.  what else is there to do for stronghold?  fight off some o' those annoyance battles?  candlekeep led to something.  sure, candlekeep were likely too much as it were critical path necessity, though you could avoid doing any candlekeep and still have a positive nwn2 game conclusion.  nevertheless, even if the obsidians didn't wanna have their limited quest pool tied to the stronghold, there shoulda' been at least one quest or event that made a meaningful check o' your prestige/security levels. had us working towards... nothing.  possibility: depending on prestige/security, there could be three possible stronghold ultimate encounters.  wouldn't need be a quest per se, but mere some kinda recognition that your stronghold efforts had been leading somewhere.  hell, for folks that like in-game recognition, you coulda' added a title to the character based on their stronghold resolution.  regardless, shoulda' been a resolution, and some kinda payoff, even if the payoff were extreme minor and the resolution were hardly final. 

 

am thinking we mentioned earlier in another thread, but a major domo or seneschal appointment might be worthy o' consideration.  the stronghold got dull.  fine.  the thing is, once started, you cannot opt out o' the stronghold responsibilities.  reach twin elms and perhaps you get the opportunity to functional retire from direct control o' the keep.  you would continue to get rest bonuses, but turns would effective be stopped and taxes and hierling paydays would be handled behind the scenes.  regardless, you could effective opt-out o' all the turn-based functions o' the keep by appointing a chamberlain.  

 

then again, our wants is so much different than nakia that we can see the problem.  have addition o' maids or cooks.  have chapel become dedicated to eothas instead o' berath.  such stuff would improve our stronghold experience not at all.  has gotta be difficult for developers.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Enoch]

If I hadn't read about it here, I wouldn't have known that the stronghold can be attacked.  I've only completed the game once thus far, but, still, something feels wrong about that. 

[Nakia]

Actually,  Gromnir, I pretty much agree with you.  Except for me a cook who could supply you with food and some other personnel in the stronghold would at least make the place feel lived in.

 

As for Josh's comment yes a lot of people don't care for strongholds but a lot of people do care for strongholds.  As long as it is optional there is no problem.  If he is looking at posts here  he will see a lot of negative feedback that is true but it is because the stronghold deserves negative feedback.  The stronghold feature has been publicized right from the Kickstarter days so it is natural that people would have high expectations.  Sometimes hype backfires on the develops or publishers. The stronghold simply does not live up to what we thought we would get.  Don't promise me  Haagen-Dazs Ice Cream  and then give me a no-name brand.  I could be wrong but I suspect that Josh doesn't like strongholds.

 

I will say that by choosing only hires that give 2 points of security and hiring our friendly ogre I have the security up to 51 and the stronghold seems able to hold off attacks without my party returning to fight the battles manually.  In an earlier game I had upgraded the main keep, the barracks and one of the walls and was attacked.  I was busy in Defiance Bay so did an auto battle and everything was wiped out which meant sinking more money into rebuilding.  I was not happy.

 

Oh that dungeon my advice is don't build it at least until the patch is out and we can see if there are any real improvements.

[Nakia]

If I hadn't read about it here, I wouldn't have known that the stronghold can be attacked.  I've only completed the game once thus far, but, still, something feels wrong about that. 

I don't know how the mechanics of the attacks is triggered but I think it is random.   I  have had them spaced out and had another game where they came like flies to honey.  This game so far I have had one attack and that was very early.  Maybe they made a change in patch 1.06.

[Gromnir]

If I hadn't read about it here, I wouldn't have known that the stronghold can be attacked.  I've only completed the game once thus far, but, still, something feels wrong about that. 

the most annoying aspect o' the stronghold attacks were a bug.  if you utilized an aoe damage attack on whatever were attacking your stronghold and one o' your hirelings were hit, the hireling would become permanent hostile towards you, even beyond death.  what we means is that if your goldpact knight hireling were made hostile by getting hit by a friendly fire fireball, you could not remove the hostility. ever. kill the knight in battle and then rehire?  well, guess what, the new goldpact knight is hostile.  worse, a few o' the special hirelings seeming couldn't be dismissed, so you would have a permanently hostile hireling at your stronghold, and any hireling that were in visual range o' the hostile hireling became hostile as well.  were a mess.  we would need sneak into our stronghold to get to the treasury or dungeon level if we did not wish to initiate a combat.  luckily, the bug were fixed after the second or third patch. 

 

repelling attacks from either the endless paths or from roaming bandits or leaden key can be handled auto or manual.  if one wishes, you can return to your stronghold and repel attacks with your party o' companions plus the keep hirelings.  one is also able to have the stronghold defend itself, but buildings get damaged during auto repels and the repair costs is excessive.

 

we have pushed security very high and still been attacked.  am not certain what is the mechanics.  am pretty confident that by clearing levels o' the endless paths you can eliminate the possibility o' specific kinds o' attacks.  get deep enough and you will never need deal with skeleton or troll attacks.  am not sure how deep you need clear to grant safety from endless path generated spirit or vythaxixizizxklzx(whatever) incursions.  perhaps security lowers the chance o' attack, but am pretty certain that +50 security don't eliminate the chance.  we always push security and then prestige in the hopes that will help reduce the dungeon escapees, but...

 

*shrug*

 

the mechanics is opaque, which is another flaw.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps we will note that a few o' the stronghold attacks can be challenging, depending on your level.  is conceptually not a horrible feature.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Gromnir

[Gromnir]

http://www.gamereactor.eu/news/331603/Pillars+of+Eternity%3A+The+White+March+coming+%22soon%22+%26+%22also+soon%22/

 

"It's another area that unlocks on the world map, and you can freely go back and forth between the White March areas and the base game areas at any time. You can bring all the good loot that you found from the White March areas, back into the base game. You can bring the companions back, back and forth. So yeah, it's very open-ended."

 

nothing earth shaking.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zekram Bogg]

Oh, so this became a stronghold discussion topic, then? I HAVE THOUGHTS!!!!

 

Like most, yeah I think the Stronghold is a bit undercooked. It has a TON of potential, just isn't where it needs to be to feel like a truly interesting feature it could be in a few patches/Expansions.

 

The main things I'd think would make the Stronghold involved enough to feel equitable with the rest of the game are:

 

> A quest that allows for official recognition as a regional Thane BEFORE you can collect taxes and most other stronghold features other than just fixing up the place. After all, you get the Stronghold, so you essentially own the property by right of possession, but no one else in the world recognizes you as a lord to pay homage to necessarily. This could be the gating mechanic that allows for those uninterested in Stronghold stuff to just own the property and maybe even fix it up, but they won't get to delve into visitors or most attacks or even need hirelings or what-not unless they openly declare lordship over the outlying lands. This should be an opt-in sequence rather than an opt-out through ignoring the chiming of the Steward. This would essentially take the stronghold from the current fluff it is into a more advanced arena that would feel like it fits with the rest of the game's depth.

 

> With the Census of local NPCs on your lands that you gain official recognition over, you now have to make decisions about the development of theses lands and of the people who reside there. Hence, King of Dragon Pass Strategic choices using the Encounter system already in the game. There need to be a lot of these for the game to draw from potentially (we're talking like, a minimum of a hundred potential decision scenarios) and they should occur about once every in-game week, but only after you get official lordship.

> With lordship means you gain access to a deeper understanding of your outlying lands, and you can get immigrants and families that move onto them if you develop them or make pronouncements around them to draw people onto them. Again, tying into a Strategic choice system that would be necessary.

 

> With lordship comes the potential of raising a small army to protect not just your stronghold, but the area surrounding it that's your domain. THIS is how you can stop potential stronghold attacks entirely, since, as it is, you can only get attacked without either setting up patrols to prevent it or counterattacking to remove the sources of harassment. This also would be decided via a King of Dragon Pass-like system.

 

> Gaining land and entering into nobility means having to deal with political rivals. The decisions you make interact with values and attitudes with other nearby thayns, so you have to figure out a balancing act to make sure you don't piss off everyone enough to have them all attack you and take your stronghold away from you.

 

> Tougher Stronghold battles that can have multiple phases or fronts, using the Encounter system to make strategic decisions where you can send hirelings/other party members to buy you time or use castle defensive advantages in between phases or on different fronts. Like, if I get attacked by an organized band, they might attack from both the eastern and western gate at the same time, so I have to send my party to deal with the forces at one of these locations at the potential chance for the other group to break through the defenses at the other side of the hold. If they can't get through the defense on the other side of the hold and I beat one force, the enemies could retreat. If they break through while I deal with the force More troop get through and I have to fight two groups - one in the courtyard outside the Keep, and one who holds up inside the keep and takes a better defensive position when I enter it. That kind of stuff.

 

> Different results upon losing a stronghold battle. Primarily, you can have enemies attack and claim ownership of your Stronghold rather than them just damaging your buildings after pillaging. So the next time you return to Od Nua, you have it inhabited by a set of enemies of the type that took over the joint (and some prisoners in your dungeon will have joined their numbers). Other results would tie in to the KoDP strategy system - residents leaving your lands, their fields could be burnt down rather than just your buildings, residents revolting against your rule - and if your prestige gets too low after you become a thayn, rival thayns can attempt to revoke your thaynship.

 

> WAY, WAY, more capturable prisoners. In general, there should be a larger system of pleading when a combat group gets down to their last man in the main game - INCLUDING THE PLAYER'S PARTY - so that taking out the majority of Kith in a lot of given groups results in the last guy standing being willing to yield rather than die. This should also include the player's party in certain instances, where certain NPC's can interrupt combat when you're down to your last party member and offer you clemency in exchange for giving in to whatever demands they may have (like forking over a bunch of money, or running off with a Companion character they kidnap, or a quest item they may desire et cetera) though this should mostly be a rare thing with the exception of City Guards in Defiance Bay, who, if you aggro and run afoul of, should be able to capture the PC and imprison them and your party for a time (unless you pay a bunch of gold to bribe them). This may seem a bit much, but it's just, if you create a system for more prisoner capture for the player, it'd make sense for a way for the NPCs to also capture the player. 

 

> The ability to imprison Raedric and/or Kolsc.

 

> More stuff to do with your prisoners. Can get information out of them that can lead to new quests or hidden stashes on maps through either conversing with them and convincing them, or possibly torturing it out of them. Most should be able to be recruited into your hireling ranks through either sweet-talking them over many different sessions or through the lash (though you can also make the wrong choice and either break them through torture or show yourself as weak through talk), and there should be at least one potential party member you should be able to get out of capturing a prisoner.

 

> NPC recruitment for your main hall beyond just an item shop guy: a Jester, a page, and head cook. The head cook will allow you to feast on a meal at the main hall (everyone sits at the dining tables and gets a free buff of one food item) the page just follows you around when you're on premises and can bring you any items in your Stronghold's treasury (essentially a walking version of your treasury), and the Jester just hangs out in the main hall and tells jokes.

 

> Ability to assign duties to Companion NPCs (both the main companions and player created ones) when they hang out at your stronghold, rather than just adventures. With six primary duties that affect different aspects of your hold's management, each getting a boost or detriment based on a primary stat - Might: Guard Captain (reduces the numbers of attacking enemies on Invasions), Constitution: Night Watch Captain (reduces the chance of enemies attacking at all), Dex: Message Runner (reduces the time it takes to coordinate building operations and decisions between Lordly choices, and seriously, this kind of needs to be in there because even if the Steward can communicate with the Watcher psychically, it doesn't seem like she can do this with other people outside the hold), Perception:  Patrol Captain (leads scouting missions outside the Hold, further reducing chance of attack), Int: Overseer (reduces time to coordinate building operations and lordly choice decisions), Resolve: Tax Collector (affects amount of taxes you receive on next tax collection). Companions on duties gain no bonus XP, but you get better Stronghold management refinement.

 

> A place to put excess pets so they wander around my keep. At least one pet slot in Brighthollow's ground floor, one for the Bailey, and one for the ground floor of the Main Keep.

 

> The ability to sit in that damn throne at will. I'm the lord of a keep. I should be able to sit on its throne!

 

 

 . . . and I that's about it.

 

Now, I know like, a lot of this is probably probably untenable in the current game, even if it could get added in the expansions, but if they put a stronghold in a sequel, this is the kind of stuff I'm going to expect having had enough time to iron out the aspects of the feature in this game.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Zekram Bogg

[Guest 4ward]

i take it there won't be any changes to the engagement system and no spell sequencers/instant protection spells for enemy casters (i think something that Josh hinted at as a possibility during the backer beta) ??

[Doppelschwert]

i take it there won't be any changes to the engagement system and no spell sequencers/instant protection spells for enemy casters (i think something that Josh hinted at as a possibility during the backer beta) ??

 

I guess you can be sure on the engagement system, but I don't see why there couldn't be those spells given that we know almost nothing. There will be two new levels for every class and we know absolutely nothing about what the class progression will be like on them, and we likely won't know until the expansion is released if it goes on like this, so in principal everything is possible.

[Gfted1]

...but I don't see why there couldn't be those spells given that we know almost nothing.

Iirc, because the devs want there to be an "opportunity cost" to every single action. Same reason you cant prebuff.

[Doppelschwert]

 

...but I don't see why there couldn't be those spells given that we know almost nothing.

Iirc, because the devs want there to be an "opportunity cost" to every single action. Same reason you cant prebuff.

 

 

Even then I'm sure there was a post by josh in the beta 'wizards suck' thread where he explained that contingencies and this kind of stuff is something they are not inherently against, but that it would cost a lot of ressources so there was no way to make it into the base game (given that the casting classes already have way more ressources attached to them if you count spells against active abilities of martial classes, it would've been out of proportion is along the lines of what he said, AFAIK).

 

There won't be any immunity spells, but anyone can feel free to search for this post of josh I mentioned (I'm too lazy though).

Edited July 24, 2015 by Doppelschwert

[gkathellar]

the mechanics is opaque, which is another flaw.

 

"Funny" story about that.

 

So, in my current playthrough, Azurro comes by and offers to sell me an ostensibly unique morning star. I figure, "what the hell, completionism," and buy it.

 

Shortly afterward, he comes by and tries to sell me the same morning star. Naturally, I growl and ignore this.

 

On his next visit, he once again drops by to sell me the same morning star. At this point, I'm kinda regretting my failure to spec the whole party with WF: Knight, so that I could have them all parade around with the same unique weapon.

 

...

 

I'm just going to console in Hiro's Cloak on my next playthrough, since clearly Azurro is bs.

[Gfted1]

Even then I'm sure there was a post by josh in the beta 'wizards suck' thread where he explained that contingencies and this kind of stuff is something they are not inherently against, but that it would cost a lot of ressources so there was no way to make it into the base game (given that the casting classes already have way more ressources attached to them if you count spells against active abilities of martial classes, it would've been out of proportion is along the lines of what he said, AFAIK).

 

There won't be any immunity spells, but anyone can feel free to search for this post of josh I mentioned (I'm too lazy though).

Hmm, interesting. I don't see whats different about being able to blow off three spells at once (sequencer) but not being able to instantly buff. Maybe buffs will be sequence-able?

[Doppelschwert]

Haven't they changed all the melee buffs of the wizard to have an instant/almost instant cast time already? Dunno, I try to play without buffs.

 

Apart from that, there is still plenty of trade off - the way I imagine a sequencer in PoE to work is that there is a cap on the spell levels you can use, so you would probably use a per rest spell (sequencer) to quickly cast a couple low level spells (per encounter by then). That's not a nobrainer to me, and it would fit into joshs vision. Apart from that, had no luck finding the thread I mentioned myself immediatelly so I quickly gave up. Maybe when I'm bored I can look it up.

[Gfted1]

Haven't they changed all the melee buffs of the wizard to have an instant/almost instant cast time already? Dunno, I try to play without buffs.

TBH, I dunno either. I never played the game but its my understanding that they specifically made the buffs short duration to prevent pre-buffing (cant stack buffs on everyone because they will start running out before you even engage an enemy).

 

Apart from that, there is still plenty of trade off - the way I imagine a sequencer in PoE to work is that there is a cap on the spell levels you can use, so you would probably use a per rest spell (sequencer) to quickly cast a couple low level spells (per encounter by then). That's not a nobrainer to me, and it would fit into joshs vision. Apart from that, had no luck finding the thread I mentioned myself immediatelly so I quickly gave up. Maybe when I'm bored I can look it up.

The D&D version of Sequencer, as implemented in BG2, did exactly that. It would hold 3 spells of level four and below. The point I was trying to make is that its functionally equivalent of three attacks at once, so I would be curious if the devs provide the same for buffs.