Oby, for where art thou?

[BruceVC]

 

" trumped-up terror charges "  

 

Snowden is a traitor who attempted to compromise the security of his country....he deserves to rot in jail. And surprise surprise Russia gives sanctuary to the one man who has embarrassed and created issues for the USA by publicly revealing NSA secrets

 

I dislike people like him, Greenwald and Assange because they used there personal dislike of the USA and the West to attempt to really undermine what it stands for

 

 

Wow, look at this! BruceVC once again using words he doesn't actually understand! I'm shocked.

 

Now, for what treason really is:

 

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html

 

And no, he didn't compromise the security of his country, because mass surveillance has been shown to be useless as far as "securing" anything goes. This was proven to you mathematically by Al₂O₃, and the FBI has admitted it as well. Wake the **** up.

 

So, no. Snowden is neither legally nor morally a traitor, no matter what dumbass pundits or, more worryingly, Congressmen and Senators keep saying.

 

 

 

The people who are fine with calling Snowden a traitor and accept the NSA's* spying are to the US what tankies are to the Soviet Union.

 

*Hello NSA agent, I apologize to whichever one of you had to look at my browsing history, specifically the porn.

 

So what do you guys think Snowden should be charged for ?

 

Because I hope you not suggesting that if a person who works for a  governmental security service breaks his signed contract and goes public with secrets about his countries intelligence, which is in direct contradiction to his job, should somehow not face punitive legal consequences ?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Snowden is a hero who should be rewarded for revealing how the US government spies on people. Charging people for doing the right thing is idiotic.

[BruceVC]

Snowden is a hero who should be rewarded for revealing how the US government spies on people. Charging people for doing the right thing is idiotic.

 

That's extremely unpatriotic....yet you don't seem to be embarrassed ?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Snowden is a hero who should be rewarded for revealing how the US government spies on people. Charging people for doing the right thing is idiotic.

 

 

That's extremely unpatriotic....yet you don't seem to be embarrassed ?

If not wanting to be spied on makes me unpatriotic, then unpatriotic I am.

[Hurlshort]

I appreciate the sacrifice Snowden made, but the government can't exactly pick and choose when it's ok to commit high treason.  There has to be a trial.  I like the idea of him being tried while not on US soil though, it levels the playing field a bit.

[Malcador]

Probably have to charge with something other than treason - what enemy with which the US is at war did he provide aid to ?

Stronger case to charge him with espionage, I suppose.

[213374U]

I appreciate the sacrifice Snowden made, but the government can't exactly pick and choose when it's ok to commit high treason.  There has to be a trial.  I like the idea of him being tried while not on US soil though, it levels the playing field a bit.

 

No, but the government does choose what he is charged with. And it's not treason. I admit, I was wrong — he probably wouldn't be tried for treason, but for "willfully communicating classified information to an unauthorized person", as per 18 U.S. Code § 798. You never know, though.

 

The contention would be whether the leaks were in "any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States", seeing as PRISM is of dubious legality to begin with. If it were eventually declared illegal, could he still be charged for blowing the whistle on it? Heh.

 

It's funny because Snowden leaks stuff about secret mass surveillance and he faces imprisonment and hefty fines. Lyudmila Savchuk exposes Russian internets trolling ops and she... gets fired. And in response, she sues her former employer. It's like they really are doing it "for the lulz".

Edited June 8, 2015 by 213374U

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Snowden is a hero who should be rewarded for revealing how the US government spies on people. Charging people for doing the right thing is idiotic.

 

That's extremely unpatriotic....yet you don't seem to be embarrassed ?

 

 

It's the opposite of being unpatriotic. Patriotism means standing for the principles and values your nation was built on. Violating the privacy of your citizens for ****s and giggles (terrorism prevention through mass surveillance is a statistical impossibility, if you do the math involved) is very much not in compliance with said principles and values.

[Malcador]

I think Snowden did it out of some idealism for his country not trying to undermine it. Guy seems faily naive in some ways - the anecdote of his surprise that SF people enjoyed killing and hunting people rather than something grandiose as defending freedom, for example.

 

I guess they have a problem with some of the players, not the team, so to speak.

[Qbert]

Snowden is tough for me.  I appreciate what he revealed and how it led to more transparency, however he still stole sensitive information, impersonated other employees in order to hack, betrayed his responsibility as a security contractor, and ran away to avoid prosecution to China and Russia, two of his country's biggest opponents.  Who knows how much information Russia and China gained from Snowden, despite his supposed safeguards?  

 

I commiserate with the position he was in, as whistle blower protection is not high priority unfortunately, but he specifically hatched this plan and carried it out knowing full well what he was doing and he absolutely should be prosecuted for his crimes, in my opinion, the same way any person who gives sensitive information to foreign entities should.  I also contend that anyone who thinks that any government should just cease all it's attempts to defend itself from threats if it's methods run the risk of gathering unneeded data on citizens is being naive about the danger level in the world.  I believe that the methods employed by the US government have done an awful lot to keep terrorist incidents and hostile country actions from impacting US citizens negatively.  Sometimes they went too far, i agree and a constant balancing act between freedom and security is the right and proper way to run a democracy in my opinion.  The government is unable to be completely transparent when it comes to security issues for obvious reasons, and citizens are responsible for electing officials who they believe will respect reasonable boundaries in these areas.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I believe that the methods employed by the US government have done an awful lot to keep terrorist incidents and hostile country actions from impacting US citizens negatively. 

 

[citation needed]

[BruceVC]

 

 

Snowden is a hero who should be rewarded for revealing how the US government spies on people. Charging people for doing the right thing is idiotic.

 

That's extremely unpatriotic....yet you don't seem to be embarrassed ?

 

 

It's the opposite of being unpatriotic. Patriotism means standing for the principles and values your nation was built on. Violating the privacy of your citizens for ****s and giggles (terrorism prevention through mass surveillance is a statistical impossibility, if you do the math involved) is very much not in compliance with said principles and values.

 

I'm not sure I can ever agree that revealing intelligence secrets about your government can be seen as patriotic?

 

And we only know what Snowden told the world officially, do you not think he has been unofficially debriefed by the Russians on all other topics ? So now Russia has information around how the USA maintains its intelligence that should be confidential ?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

I'm not sure I can ever agree that revealing intelligence secrets about your government can be seen as patriotic?

 

 

Obviously if the existence of said secrets is in itself harmful to the citizens of your country, revealing them should be your patriotic duty, shouldn't it?

 

 

And we only know what Snowden told the world officially, do you not think he has been unofficially debriefed by the Russians on all other topics ? So now Russia has information around how the USA maintains its intelligence that should be confidential ?

 

 

Well that's obviously a risk, but, it's kind of the job of an intelligence agency to predict this, and employ appropriate countermeasures. Remember, we wouldn't be having this conversation if they weren't completely **** at doing the only thing their government pays them to do.

[BruceVC]

 

 

I'm not sure I can ever agree that revealing intelligence secrets about your government can be seen as patriotic?

 

 

Obviously if the existence of said secrets is in itself harmful to the citizens of your country, revealing them should be your patriotic duty, shouldn't it?

 

 

And we only know what Snowden told the world officially, do you not think he has been unofficially debriefed by the Russians on all other topics ? So now Russia has information around how the USA maintains its intelligence that should be confidential ?

 

 

Well that's obviously a risk, but, it's kind of the job of an intelligence agency to predict this, and employ appropriate countermeasures. Remember, we wouldn't be having this conversation if they weren't completely **** at doing the only thing their government pays them to do.

 

 

But the secrets Snowden revealed didn't highlight  that US citizens were being hurt? It was just about the ability of the NSA to track user information and communication, its not like he brought to the attention of the world clandestine USA death squads that were operating within the USA 

 

But it did hurt the intelligence gathering ability of the USA as he spoke about Prism which was classified 

[Meshugger]

BruceVC confirmed for not ever played the original Deus Ex.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

But the secrets Snowden revealed didn't highlight  that US citizens were being hurt? It was just about the ability of the NSA to track user information and communication

 

 

Even if we put aside the enormous potential for that information to be abused, and the fact that mass surveillance, as people have proven repeatedly, is a completely inefficient tool of terrorism prevention - therefore a vastly funded program that employs mass surveillance does hurt citizens indirectly, by virtue of not assigning that money to methods that actually work, which simultaneously counts as a misuse of taxpayer money, hurting said taxpayers, and a failure to protect people whose lives could've been improved if said money was spent more productively-, even putting these concerns aside... 

 

...actually, we shouldn't put these aside. They're valid concerns.

 

...Anyways, even putting them aside, if we accept that internet harrassment is wrong, even if it doesn't result in physical harm, due to the mental stress inflicted, we should also accept that surveillance is wrong. There are a lot of people who are incredibly uncomfortable with the idea of being spied upon by their own government (for some reason), who are hurt by such a program. There are studies concluding that productivity plummets when faced with the prospect of being surveilled, not to mention that it results in generally increased stress levels. Knowing the effects of prolonged stress on the human body, I can only conclude that surveillance is physically harmful to the subjects. I'd definitely count that as "being hurt".

Edited June 9, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Gorgon]

I appreciate the sacrifice Snowden made, but the government can't exactly pick and choose when it's ok to commit high treason.  There has to be a trial.  I like the idea of him being tried while not on US soil though, it levels the playing field a bit.

I think it comes down to not being able to trust the government to do the right thing. It would have been a victory for democratic institutions if it had been able to and Snowden kinda blindsided Obama with the leaks but when it comes down to it I don't think the government's track record make it very deserving of special consideration or of being able to work this out internally. 

[Malcador]

 

I believe that the methods employed by the US government have done an awful lot to keep terrorist incidents and hostile country actions from impacting US citizens negatively.

 

[citation needed]

 

To be fair, you're not going to find SF actions in the news all that much or breakdowns of plots foiled by the CIA. They have a lot of methods.

[Varana]

Though for all we know, even in internal inquiries there hasn't been much evidence of specific prevented incidents.

Those things that Snowden revealed, are out in the open now. Why not show what the results have been?

So in the end, we have a massively overblown surveillance program costing billions of dollars, and infringing on the liberties and privacy of everyone in America (and abroad) - on the off chance that it might possibly do something. That's nonsense.

Complaining about government overreach seems to be quite en vogue in America, in the moment - even in areas where one might think that a bit of regulation and oversight would probably be for the better. On the other hand, in the case of mass surveillance, many people don't seem to have a particular problem with allowing the government to know basically everything. I find that perplexing.

The US is built on freedom and civil liberties, at least in theory. I'm not convinced that defending those is unpatriotic. Just the opposite, actually.

[BruceVC]

 

 

But the secrets Snowden revealed didn't highlight  that US citizens were being hurt? It was just about the ability of the NSA to track user information and communication

 

 

Even if we put aside the enormous potential for that information to be abused, and the fact that mass surveillance, as people have proven repeatedly, is a completely inefficient tool of terrorism prevention - therefore a vastly funded program that employs mass surveillance does hurt citizens indirectly, by virtue of not assigning that money to methods that actually work, which simultaneously counts as a misuse of taxpayer money, hurting said taxpayers, and a failure to protect people whose lives could've been improved if said money was spent more productively-, even putting these concerns aside... 

 

...actually, we shouldn't put these aside. They're valid concerns.

 

...Anyways, even putting them aside, if we accept that internet harrassment is wrong, even if it doesn't result in physical harm, due to the mental stress inflicted, we should also accept that surveillance is wrong. There are a lot of people who are incredibly uncomfortable with the idea of being spied upon by their own government (for some reason), who are hurt by such a program. There are studies concluding that productivity plummets when faced with the prospect of being surveilled, not to mention that it results in generally increased stress levels. Knowing the effects of prolonged stress on the human body, I can only conclude that surveillance is physically harmful to the subjects. I'd definitely count that as "being hurt".

 

 

Well the reality is  we live in an interconnected digital world  and when a country faces the real threat of cyber warfare, like the USA does, it makes sense that the country would invest in technology that allows them to tackle this digital threat. Prism was designed with this in mind, also as I keep saying we don't know the additional information that Prism provided outside of those articles that have been linked that basically say "  Prism hasn't enabled any arrests ", my point being Prism isn't just about arresting extremists but would protect the USA in other ways like the fact the USA is able to determine where those latest Chinese hacking attacks came from

 

http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/05/technology/why-china-hacks-us/index.html

 

 http://thehill.com/policy/technology/298153-pentagon-claims-chinese-government-behind-intrusions-on-us-computers

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/17/china-hacked-pentagon-contractors-senate-hearing

 

Finally I sell and implement eDiscovery software that the financial institutions invest in. This gives them the ability to retrieve data about there employers quickly and effectively. And do you know why they invest it this? Its not to police people, its not to see how productive they are or what there emails to family members say. No its about the ability to gather data needed for internal and external governance reasons. So for example investigating  inside trading, legal disputes, cases where the bank gets sued and any other example of financial irregularity that there staff may be complicit in. So its used to protect its staff, its customers and its investors. So even though a corporation can use this software to spy on people they don't. Its used positively ...and that's the same as Prism

[ShadySands]

 

 

I believe that the methods employed by the US government have done an awful lot to keep terrorist incidents and hostile country actions from impacting US citizens negatively.

 

[citation needed]

 

To be fair, you're not going to find SF actions in the news all that much or breakdowns of plots foiled by the CIA. They have a lot of methods.

 

 

They did cite some 54(ish?) incidents which were then proven to be mostly overseas, not imminent, and foiled by other more conventional means

 

Also, Qbert says he believes it works and it's pretty hard to dissuade someone of their feels. That's why I carry around a magic rock. Not dead, must work.

[Malcador]

They did cite some 54(ish?) incidents which were then proven to be mostly overseas, not imminent, and foiled by other more conventional means

 

Also, Qbert says he believes it works and it's pretty hard to dissuade someone of their feels. That's why I carry around a magic rock. Not dead, must work.

Oh, I thought he meant methods in general (lower stuff than Delta Force abducting guys from Libya or Tomahawks) rather than specifically with the NSA's spy on everyone program, which I agree is useless. Faith is required for that either way I think, the nature of it has to be somewhat secretive so no one knows if actual plots were stopped. Additionally, there is the issue that vigilance is good independently of results.

[ShadySands]

Gotcha

[obyknven]

Thanks for everything, guys, I'm leave Obsidian forum.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-06-09-chris-avellone-leaves-obsidian-entertainment

[BruceVC]

Thanks for everything, guys, I'm leave Obsidian forum.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-06-09-chris-avellone-leaves-obsidian-entertainment