Why isn't dagger both slash & pierce?

[luzarius]

Just curious.

 

- Shouldn't dagger be slash and pierce?

 

- If rapier is designed for piercing and not slashing, wouldn't it do more piercing damage than a dagger since it's purpose is to thrust (pierce).

 

Wouldn't this make more sense?

 

Dagger

- Slash/Pierce

- Accurate

- Dmg: 9-13

 

Rapier

- Pierce

- Accurate

- Dmg: 10-14

 

It's okay to be geeky on Monday, but not Friday.

Edited May 26, 2015 by luzarius

[Gromnir]

so turn the dagger into slash AND pierce as well as accurate and the way to balance is to give the rapier 1 additional point to its damage range? 

 

...

 

am not certain how giving the dagger a second quality would be balanced by a slight buff to the rapier.

 

and to answer the initial thread question, the reason a dagger is not slash/pierce AND accurate is 'cause o' balance. achieve your goal is simple:  make the dagger slash/pierce instead o' accurate, no?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tennisgolfboll]

You dont slash with a dagger in rl. Not that rl really matters to much in games.

[Renuzor]

You dont slash with a dagger in rl. Not that rl really matters to much in games.

You Sir havent been in RL knife fight.

 

Anyway when you go behind someone do you stab them in neck or slit their throat?

[roller12]

Anyway when you go behind someone do you stab them in neck or slit their throat?

You must be really busy walking on streets..

 

Slashing requires a blade length to make slashes with and knifes lack one, in fact blade length is what differentiate daggers from swords.

 

 

Anyway the OP has a point both weapons are too similar. To be honest i dont quite understand why the rapier is even in the game, its a rather modern weapon designed to combat armor-less enemies in times when armor became obsolete due to firearms. So i would imagine a rapier be like that

 

Rapier

- Pierce

- Accurate

- Dmg: 7-9, strikes twice

 

it would bring its total damage up to a sabre and more accurate, but make it take double penalty from armor, so it would devastate armorless characters and be not so useful against armor, as it should be in real life, and gives it an unique purpose ( plus maybe it will force more armor usage because a rogue with that should be pretty dangerous against cloth hehe)

[Renuzor]

 

Anyway when you go behind someone do you stab them in neck or slit their throat?

You must be really busy walking on streets..

 

Slashing requires a blade length to make slashes with and knifes lack one, in fact blade length is what differentiate daggers from sword.

 

Actually if you have really small blade/knife its better to go slash on main veins than stab few centimeters in body. In fight its easier to slash your blade on main veins or throath than stab armbit and body multiple times to kill without enemy goin on you after with their long sword what has reach of 2 meters. But one slash on main vein and after that you wait little and he is dead. If we start speaking real life get your facts straigth.

[Nonek]

I always thought the accepted wisdom was that daggers stab and knives slash, for instance my grandfathers Sykes Fairburn has no edge to slash with but a point that could stab quite handily. I'd personally not like to use either against anyone with a sword, spear or any kind of armour, unless I was delivering the coup de grace.

[roller12]

 

Actually if you have really small blade/knife its better to go slash on main veins than stab few centimeters in body. In fight its easier to slash your blade on main veins or throath than stab armbit and body multiple times to kill without enemy goin on you after with their long sword what has reach of 2 meters. But one slash on main vein and after that you wait little and he is dead. If we start speaking real life get your facts straigth.

 

People dont use melee weapons in combat anymore, what real life situation are you speaking of? All swords have a thrusting point for a reason. Think about that reason and why your idea of slashing with daggers will end badly. ( if we are talking about real dagger usage the most efficient way to kill a human is to stab him in the eye, but they dont show that in the movies so you couldnt possibly know that.)

Edited May 27, 2015 by roller12

[Rosveen]

 

 

Actually if you have really small blade/knife its better to go slash on main veins than stab few centimeters in body. In fight its easier to slash your blade on main veins or throath than stab armbit and body multiple times to kill without enemy goin on you after with their long sword what has reach of 2 meters. But one slash on main vein and after that you wait little and he is dead. If we start speaking real life get your facts straigth.

 

People dont use melee weapons in combat anymore, what real life situation are you speaking of?

Of course they do. Firearms aren't common in my country, so thugs with knives are nothing surprising (actually, there were even some with machetes...) Riot police use blunt melee weapons. Soldiers are also trained in hand-to-hand combat and while this usually isn't very pratical, there are situations when they end up using their knives.

[roller12]

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc

Edited May 27, 2015 by roller12

[Renuzor]

 

 

Actually if you have really small blade/knife its better to go slash on main veins than stab few centimeters in body. In fight its easier to slash your blade on main veins or throath than stab armbit and body multiple times to kill without enemy goin on you after with their long sword what has reach of 2 meters. But one slash on main vein and after that you wait little and he is dead. If we start speaking real life get your facts straigth.

 

People dont use melee weapons in combat anymore, what real life situation are you speaking of? All swords have a thrusting point for a reason. Think about that reason and why your idea of slashing with daggers will end badly. ( if we are talking about real dagger usage the most efficient way to kill a human is to stab him in the eye, but they dont show that in the movies so you couldnt possibly know that.)

what ever sir, think what you want.

 

[Crucis]

You dont slash with a dagger in rl. Not that rl really matters to much in games.

 

Or spelling. 

[Renuzor]

on topic.. i think too dagger should be slash/pierce, or depends what kind of dagger. If its knife like dundee then it should be slash and maybe pierce, but i wouldnt stab with that thing..

[Rosveen]

on topic.. i think too dagger should be slash/pierce, or depends what kind of dagger. If its knife like dundee then it should be slash and maybe pierce, but i wouldnt stab with that thing..

But stabbing is pierce damage, isn't it?

[Shevek]

This guy seems to think its primarily a thrusting weapon. He has a whole video series on western dagger fighting. 

 

Anywho, video here (go to the 4 minute mark where he talks about slash v. thrust):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kDKKIFsrjA&t=4m0s

 

 

Pretty cool too. Makes me want to buy a dagger to add to my useless male jewelry collection (which currently includes a ko katana, a combat knife, and a hunting sword).

Edited May 28, 2015 by Shevek

[roller12]

what ever sir, think what you want.

 

https://youtu.be/POJtaO2xB_o

Yes thats more like it, you should have said right from the beginning something like "i have no idea about how real combat works but i would like all daggers to do slashing damage because there is that Holliwood movie i saw with some dude threatening the locals with an oversized hunting knife". And that would even be acceptable to add this particular knife to the game in form of an unique. Edited May 28, 2015 by roller12

[Renuzor]

 

what ever sir, think what you want.

 

Yes thats more like it, you should have said right from the beginning something like "i have no idea about how real combat works but i would like all daggers to do slashing damage because there is that Holliwood movie i saw with some dude threatening the locals with an oversized hunting knife". And that would even be acceptable to add this particular knife to the game in form of an unique.

i didnt say all daggers, depends on what kind of. Why attack me like that?

[Tennisgolfboll]

 

You dont slash with a dagger in rl. Not that rl really matters to much in games.

You Sir havent been in RL knife fight.

 

Anyway when you go behind someone do you stab them in neck or slit their throat?

Unfortunately i have.

 

If you ever find yourself in one you better hope that your attacker slashes (hollywood movie fantasy) with his dagger rather than stabs.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Tennisgolfboll

[FlintlockJazz]

 

 

Anyway when you go behind someone do you stab them in neck or slit their throat?

You must be really busy walking on streets..

 

Slashing requires a blade length to make slashes with and knifes lack one, in fact blade length is what differentiate daggers from sword.

 

Actually if you have really small blade/knife its better to go slash on main veins than stab few centimeters in body. In fight its easier to slash your blade on main veins or throath than stab armbit and body multiple times to kill without enemy goin on you after with their long sword what has reach of 2 meters. But one slash on main vein and after that you wait little and he is dead. If we start speaking real life get your facts straigth.

 

Actually you're the one who should get his facts straight.  Slashing veins isn't easy nor is it effective (fun fact, slitting your wrists by going across isn't very effective, you want to go along the length of the arm not across it), and slashing a person's throat doesn't cause them to die like in the movies, as the arteries actually retract when you start cutting preventing you from cutting them and there is muscle in the way, it might get messy but it is not as effective as people think.

 

As to your question as to whether you should slash or stab someone from behind, it's stab: you drive the point of the knife into the side of the neck and then lever it round 90 degrees until you are blocking the windpipe with the blade, preventing them from breathing and slicing in half the arteries in the neck while pushing them out at the same time.  This was told to me by a friend who served in the British Army.

[Omnicron]

This guy seems to think its primarily a thrusting weapon. He has a whole video series on western dagger fighting. 

 

Anywho, video here (go to the 4 minute mark where he talks about slash v. thrust):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kDKKIFsrjA&t=4m0s

 

 

Pretty cool too. Makes me want to buy a dagger to add to my useless male jewelry collection (which currently includes a ko katana, a combat knife, and a hunting sword).

 "No matter what kind of +10 fire knife you have"        

 

Good point though, daggers might not the weight to be primarily effective as slashing. It will do damage, but fatality is far more likely from thrusting techniques. 

Edited May 28, 2015 by Omnicron

[Renuzor]

I agree stabbing is more effective with pointy knife but blade like dundees, you can use both ways, thats the point.. and yes i dont have personal experience so i dont know what happens when you slit someones throat.. And bout slashing veins, if you manage to slit example his leg what has big veins its game over after little time. So they are both deadly.

 

There was this guy who accidently very little touched his leg with chainsaw died almost instant because of fast blood loss.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Renuzor

[MunoValente]

I think rapiers should have the defense bonus that is on hatchets, then it would be the ideal weapon for the riposte talent, which seems like it should their natural use.  Hatchets in turn should either have DR reduction, or be slash/crush, deflection on hatchets doesn't really make sense to me.

[Elerond]

I think rapiers should have the defense bonus that is on hatchets, then it would be the ideal weapon for the riposte talent, which seems like it should their natural use.  Hatchets in turn should either have DR reduction, or be slash/crush, deflection on hatchets doesn't really make sense to me.

 

You could argue that interfering bonus on hatchets is because of fact that they aren't easiest weapons to deflect that causes one lose some of their offensive ability when they try prevent enemy from hitting them.

 

Daggers are usually designed to be stabbing and of hand protective weapons that help blocking hits from enemy. But there are knives (even from European Middle ages) that are mainly aimed to be slashing weapons and there are even daggers that are designed in that way. 

 

Rapiers and daggers as fast weapons don't make actually any sense as longer weapons like spears are much faster to use because of their longer reach and smaller hand movement needed to use them. And it also is bit odd that rapiers are made to be in "light" weapon section even though in real life they are one heaviest one hand swords after cavalry sabers. And for some reason all rapiers in game resemble more fencing foils or small words than actual rapiers. And estocs are for some reason made to look more like great swords than one-and-half hand long swords that they were. 

 

But anyway bonuses/benefits that weapons in PoE aren't aimed to be that simulative, but more balanced gameplay thing that somewhat tries to present weapon type as it is in real life.

[Luckmann]

I asked myself the same question in this deceptively named thread: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78435-why-are-clubs-accurate/

 

Daggers should absolutely be changed from +Accuracy to Best-of-Slash/Pierce. And Clubs should get increased Interrupt.

 

 

And Sabres should have it's DoT back. Q_Q

 

Edited June 1, 2015 by Luckmann

[roller12]

Are you guys still on that "daggers should slash" tale? Here watch this. That guy reviews pretty much all the PoE/medieval weapon arsenal (and he actually has it)

Bowie knife vs rondel dagger http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU49GhxtvVQ

Daggers can slash, but if the opponent has as much as any protection - forget it. (And obviously unsuitable for PoE) Which is kinda self explanatory really, but since Rambo exterminates entire countries with a hunting knife i guess this myth will never die.