Party gender preference?

[Tennisgolfboll]

 

 

 

If there was 1 woman for every 200 men in the military, you'd only need about 1200 men to make a 6 woman adventuring party.

 

Mind you IMO in fantasy games when you start throwing magic around, gender differences are kind of meaningless. Even if not treating physical differences in strength between genders, two ciphers, two mages, a priest and a druid could be just as effective a party as the typical adventuring party, and the use of magic/psionics/shapeshifting/etc. doesn't really have a real world gender relationship.

 

"No sorry, a woman shape-shifted into a anthropomorphic bear would NEVER be strong enough to hit that dude..." just fails as an argument from the get-go.

 

That said, if someone wants to play an all male party/mostly male party because of some sense of personal verisimilitude, it really doesn't affect me provided I still have the ability to do my own thing.

Some good points.

 

I find that the more such absurd things as turn into a bear, women fighting dragons etc there is the harder it is to suspend my disbelief. This is how all fantasy works.

 

I am sure you would find it hard to accept that your party can fly, use tactical nukes from their fingers, and morph to dragons at will. Its just to much. A cartoon. The difference between us is that my views (which are rooted in the real world) dont think all female parties are the ****.

 

You are however so indoctrinated (contrary to how the real world works) with denying gender difference that you just dont see how absurd such things are

Again, I have no issue if an all-female party (or even majority) breaks your personal verisimilitude - its your game and you should play it the way it makes you happy! If that means all or mostly male parties and females only in certain roles - the game supports that. And that's why I think these kind of games are great, you can build what works for you.

 

And while I'll concur that the strength in the top 100th percentile man is going to be stronger than the top 100th percentile woman in real life, I - personally - don't have a problem with superior strength frontline fighter women in a fantasy setting, because its a fantasy setting (and at any rate, the top 100th percentile woman is still going to be stronger than, something like 80 - 90% of dudes anyhow when you're talking about elite levels).

 

I'll also say, I have no issue with a game enforcing gender differences (there have been several that have given a +1 str to guys and a -1 str to gals; the biggest problem is the in game balance solutions to make dudettes still viable as party members are usually not well thought out and/or completely arbitrary). I know a lot of people hate this sort of thing, but I've never found it to break a game.

I agree with all said except your real world example.

 

I am a powerlifter and i can tell you that even if a woman trains her whole life she wont be as strong as a big and broad man who spends his time drinking etc. There are unique exceptions were they could get as strong because of their genes and drugs as the big couch man but if that man had the same genetic gifts he would again be stronger by sitting on his ass.

 

When you then factor in martial training and lifting the genes and hormonal profile makes the difference even bigger between men and women. For example a terrible division 12 football team of men would destroy the best female team in the whole world even if they were on drugs (and the drugs even it out alot). And i mean destroy. The women wouldn't stand a chance.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Tennisgolfboll

[dorkboy]

"Strong man killed by sharp object"

[Bryy]

I love how this dude is going out of his way to say the even with a severe disadvantage, women are still inferior to men.

[KDubya]

In the world that PoE is set in it would not make any sense to have gender differences reflected in the stats. In PoE most of the stats have both a physical and a mental portion.

 

Might - is also the strength of your spirit, not only your physical strength.

 

Constitution - is both your physical health and your mental toughness to be able to "cowboy up" and get up after being knocked down

 

Dexterity - reaction speed encompasses both physical and mental ability 

 

Perception - both physical via superior eyesight and mental for the ability to analyze your sensory inputs

 

Intellect -  your innate natural born intelligence

 

Resolve - mental toughness

 

All of the stats could be equally high for men, women, as well as for other races. The racial modifiers show how the extremes are better than others - the mightiest dwarf is mightier than the mightiest elf.

 

If instead of Might we had Strength the case could be made for gender differences but that would open the developers up to a level of Social Justice that would make the limerick issue look to be minor.

 

In "Real Life" there are definitive physiological difference between men and women, particularly in muscle mass and upper body strength. That is why all sports have separate divisions for men and women, for fairness to women. In sprinting, marathons, weight lifting, tennis, fighting, swimming or any other physical sporting competition men will win if you are using world class athletes on both sides.

 

With regards to fighting I am not sure about fencing. It might be wholly dependent on technique and hand speed so with the modern sport of one touch that hits milliseconds before the counterstrike women might be as competitive as men. In a real duel though one would not try to hit to kill a millisecond before the counterstrike also killed you.

 

In a hand to hand combat situation a women would lose badly. In MMA Ronda Rousey would get beat up by an equal weight and trained man. You'd never see it, as if by some fluke she won the guy would never live it down, and the more probable outcome of her getting knocked out would look badly for the sport that is trying to overcome the earlier description of it being a cage match with animals fighting each other instead of the highly trained athletes that make up the sport today. No sport wants to see a women get beaten by a man, it would send a bad message.

[Longknife]

I am a strong, independent Aumaua woman that don't need no man.

[Luckmann]

I love how this dude is going out of his way to say the even with a severe disadvantage, women are still inferior to men.

 

And I love how you are going out of your way to make this an issue of inferiority vs. superiority. It's ridiculous to even imply that women stand a chance when we're discussing relative physical strength, on average. And if we're discussing the extremes, the upper percentiles of either gender, the otherwise relatively big differences turns into a massive gulch. This doesn't mean that one thinks that women are "inferior to men".

 

Really, stop trying to shove cultural marxism and political correctness down everyone's throat. The guy stated his preferred gender ratio, as per the thread, and explained why he felt that way, and it's perfectly reasonable to say that "Hey, I find it a bit ridiculous that somehow the 6 beefiest female meatheads of the continent have somehow coalesced and become part of my party, and I prefer to keep it at a more realistic level".

 

It has nothing to do with misogyny or some other ridiculous cause, it has nothing to do with fireballs or magic, or the fact that it's a fantasy setting. It's a preference based on fact and the universe as we know it, which no-one other than the player has anything to do with. He doesn't care if you fill up your party with pink-haired orlan females that kills dragons left and right because you think they're pretty, why would you care if he prefers 1-2 females because of human gender dimorphism? Other than virulent brainwash through rote repetition and offence by proxy?

Edited May 28, 2015 by Luckmann

[Longknife]

 

I love how this dude is going out of his way to say the even with a severe disadvantage, women are still inferior to men.

 

And I love how you are going out of your way to make this an issue of inferiority vs. superiority. It's ridiculous to even imply that women stand a chance when we're discussing relative physical strength, on average. And if we're discussing the extremes, the upper percentiles of either gender, the otherwise relatively big differences turns into a massive gulch. This doesn't mean that one thinks that women are "inferior to men".

 

Really, stop trying to shove cultural marxism and political correctness down everyone's throat. The guy stated his preferred gender ratio, as per the thread, and explained why he felt that way, and it's perfectly reasonable to say that "Hey, I find it a bit ridiculous that somehow the 6 beefiest female meatheads of the continent have somehow coalesced and become part of my party, and I prefer to keep it at a more realistic level".

 

It has nothing to do with misogyny or some other ridiculous cause, it has nothing to do with fireballs or magic, or the fact that it's a fantasy setting. It's a preference based on fact and the universe as we know it, which no-one other than the player has anything to do with. He doesn't care if you fill up your party with pink-haired orlan females that kills dragons left and right because you think they're pretty, why would you care if he prefers 1-2 females because of human gender dimorphism? Other than virulent brainwash through rote repetition and offence by proxy?

 

 

 

Just adding my two cents?

 

I personally think how much someone works out or the like is far more likely to play a role in who's stronger than gender is.  What I mean is I've known plenty of guys with very arrogant and misogynistic beliefs that they're stronger than women by default....but not all of them bothered working out. Then lo and behold a woman that does comes along and outmatches him.

 

Having said that, I recently saw a statistic that was pretty conclusive. It showed how typically, Olympic runners for example (believe it was runners) will have such a gap that the slowest male runner outperforms the fastest female runner. That's pretty damning evidence that would definitely suggest that yes, of course when you have two people both equally dedicated to a physical activity, the male will have the advantage.

   Likewise and just as a last example, a friend of mine does judo and haekido I believe. Discovered, to my surprise, that I'm stronger than her. I do not work out. The only work outs I have to my name are that walking with one leg is more taxing on your muscles (I naturally build leg muscle) and when I use crutches around the house or the like, then there's some arm muscle. That's it really. So yeah, that was surprising for me but also speaks quite a bit about the advantage men have.

 

 

Also, this post is hilarious:

 

 

But i will try and make it really simple for you.

*rolls eyes*

 

No, I understood you, the number is still irrelevant. But thanks for assuming I'm just stupid.

 

The point is that woman are in the military at all. You attributing real world blueprints such as HOW MANY WOMEN ARE IN THE MILITARY and WEIGHT to a fantasy game is just... why? If you're constantly on the look out for "inconsistency" or whatnot, how are you possibly going to have any fun? Does it really matter to you that much that there are female wizards in a fantasy game?

 

Does it matter to you that much that other people are playing female PMs that you have to come into a forum thread and state that you think it is unnatural (well, I mean, unnatural except if they are love interests, according to you)? 

 

 

The why is spelled out for you: immersion. He wants the world to feel believable for him, and it loses a degree of that when he has all these stronk women in squad.

 

To everything else? Dude where on EARTH did he say that he takes offense to anyone else playing as females or that his goal is to rain on everyone else's parade? He stated a personal preference because this thread asked for it. You are the one reading too much into things. He only grew hostile after you were already at his throat.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Longknife

[Luckmann]

 

 

I love how this dude is going out of his way to say the even with a severe disadvantage, women are still inferior to men.

 

And I love how you are going out of your way to make this an issue of inferiority vs. superiority. It's ridiculous to even imply that women stand a chance when we're discussing relative physical strength, on average. And if we're discussing the extremes, the upper percentiles of either gender, the otherwise relatively big differences turns into a massive gulch. This doesn't mean that one thinks that women are "inferior to men".

 

Really, stop trying to shove cultural marxism and political correctness down everyone's throat. The guy stated his preferred gender ratio, as per the thread, and explained why he felt that way, and it's perfectly reasonable to say that "Hey, I find it a bit ridiculous that somehow the 6 beefiest female meatheads of the continent have somehow coalesced and become part of my party, and I prefer to keep it at a more realistic level".

 

It has nothing to do with misogyny or some other ridiculous cause, it has nothing to do with fireballs or magic, or the fact that it's a fantasy setting. It's a preference based on fact and the universe as we know it, which no-one other than the player has anything to do with. He doesn't care if you fill up your party with pink-haired orlan females that kills dragons left and right because you think they're pretty, why would you care if he prefers 1-2 females because of human gender dimorphism? Other than virulent brainwash through rote repetition and offence by proxy?

 

 

 

Just adding my two cents?

 

I personally think how much someone works out or the like is far more likely to play a role in who's stronger than gender is.  What I mean is I've known plenty of guys with very arrogant and misogynistic beliefs that they're stronger than women by default....but not all of them bothered working out. Then lo and behold a woman that does comes along and outmatches him.

 

Having said that, I recently saw a statistic that was pretty conclusive. It showed how typically, Olympic runners for example (believe it was runners) will have such a gap that the slowest male runner outperforms the fastest female runner. That's pretty damning evidence that would definitely suggest that yes, of course when you have two people both equally dedicated to a physical activity, the male will have the advantage.

   Likewise and just as a last example, a friend of mine does judo and haekido I believe. Discovered, to my surprise, that I'm stronger than her. I do not work out. The only work outs I have to my name are that walking with one leg is more taxing on your muscles (I naturally build leg muscle) and when I use crutches around the house or the like, then there's some arm muscle. That's it really. So yeah, that was surprising for me but also speaks quite a bit about the advantage men have.

 

 

The thing is, it's probably true that they're stronger than women... by default. This does not take edge cases into account - as I said, if we're discussing relative physical strength on average, and if we're discussing the extremes, the upper percentiles of either gender, the difference becomes even bigger.

 

Obviously, a well-trained woman could beat out a male couch-potato any day of the week, but in order for there to be any relevant comparison, we have to look at the relative difference. Couch-potato vs. couch-potato, men are stronger. Meatmonger vs. meatmonger, men are still stronger.

 

And although it's relatively likely that I may very well be physically stronger than your female friend, I would not want to test that theory, out of fear of losing a shin or two.

[Nakia]

Just a quick comment in regard to sword fighting.  In doing some research I ran across a man that specialists in sword fighting and training people.  One thing he said was that strength was not the most important thing in sword fighting.  Training and experience was what was important along with dexterity.  I really doubt that most modern men could survive in a fight with an experienced medieval warrior, male or female. 

 

There are historical and archaeological records of women warriors.

[Longknife]

The thing is, it's probably true that they're stronger than women... by default. This does not take edge cases into account - as I said, if we're discussing relative physical strength on average, and if we're discussing the extremes, the upper percentiles of either gender, the difference becomes even bigger.

Obviously, a well-trained woman could beat out a male couch-potato any day of the week, but in order for there to be any relevant comparison, we have to look at the relative difference. Couch-potato vs. couch-potato, men are stronger. Meatmonger vs. meatmonger, men are still stronger.

 

And although it's relatively likely that I may very well be physically stronger than your female friend, I would not want to test that theory, out of fear of losing a shin or two.

 

 

Yep, by no means disagreeing with that, was merely stating that I do feel like many men exaggerate the advantage and view it as absolute (aka no amount of workouts will feasibly counteract the advantage men have), which simply isn't true. Having said that, give both genders the exact same training and men will come out superior.

 

 

And nah with my female friend in particular, I was really surprised. I'm by no means super strong, though another female friend did point out to me that she thinks my body just hides it's muscle tone well because I'm stupidly fast on crutches and support my weight with absolute ease whereas a friend of mine who worked out and found it fun to use my crutches (for whatever reason) would quickly tire when using them. Still, was pretty shocked to get into a play fight with the judo girl to discover I could just blatantly overpower her and GG we're done.

 

 

 

Just a quick comment in regard to sword fighting.  In doing some research I ran across a man that specialists in sword fighting and training people.  One thing he said was that strength was not the most important thing in sword fighting.  Training and experience was what was important along with dexterity.  I really doubt that most modern men could survive in a fight with an experienced medieval warrior, male or female. 

 

There are historical and archaeological records of women warriors.

 

 

I don't think many of us are contesting any of what you're saying, merely that the overwhelming majority of records documenting male fighters, alongside the statistics we have from olympic events etc, would definitely suggest men have superior physical capabilities. Whether this extends to dexterity...? We'd have to look at sports that value dex more and see if the same gap exists between the genders. Aside from that, the extra strength certainly doesn't hurt.

 

 

Honestly the only thing in your post I'd be quick to contest is that I think medieval warriors would lose against experienced swordfighters of today, simply because things such as diet, health and even height/arm length can play a surprising factor in such things, and in all categories the modern man wins out by a very strong margin.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Longknife

[Tennisgolfboll]

 

 

I love how this dude is going out of his way to say the even with a severe disadvantage, women are still inferior to men.

And I love how you are going out of your way to make this an issue of inferiority vs. superiority. It's ridiculous to even imply that women stand a chance when we're discussing relative physical strength, on average. And if we're discussing the extremes, the upper percentiles of either gender, the otherwise relatively big differences turns into a massive gulch. This doesn't mean that one thinks that women are "inferior to men".

 

Really, stop trying to shove cultural marxism and political correctness down everyone's throat. The guy stated his preferred gender ratio, as per the thread, and explained why he felt that way, and it's perfectly reasonable to say that "Hey, I find it a bit ridiculous that somehow the 6 beefiest female meatheads of the continent have somehow coalesced and become part of my party, and I prefer to keep it at a more realistic level".

 

It has nothing to do with misogyny or some other ridiculous cause, it has nothing to do with fireballs or magic, or the fact that it's a fantasy setting. It's a preference based on fact and the universe as we know it, which no-one other than the player has anything to do with. He doesn't care if you fill up your party with pink-haired orlan females that kills dragons left and right because you think they're pretty, why would you care if he prefers 1-2 females because of human gender dimorphism? Other than virulent brainwash through rote repetition and offence by proxy?

Spot on. Edited May 28, 2015 by Tennisgolfboll

[Tennisgolfboll]

 

 

 

 

I love how this dude is going out of his way to say the even with a severe disadvantage, women are still inferior to men.

And I love how you are going out of your way to make this an issue of inferiority vs. superiority. It's ridiculous to even imply that women stand a chance when we're discussing relative physical strength, on average. And if we're discussing the extremes, the upper percentiles of either gender, the otherwise relatively big differences turns into a massive gulch. This doesn't mean that one thinks that women are "inferior to men".

 

Really, stop trying to shove cultural marxism and political correctness down everyone's throat. The guy stated his preferred gender ratio, as per the thread, and explained why he felt that way, and it's perfectly reasonable to say that "Hey, I find it a bit ridiculous that somehow the 6 beefiest female meatheads of the continent have somehow coalesced and become part of my party, and I prefer to keep it at a more realistic level".

 

It has nothing to do with misogyny or some other ridiculous cause, it has nothing to do with fireballs or magic, or the fact that it's a fantasy setting. It's a preference based on fact and the universe as we know it, which no-one other than the player has anything to do with. He doesn't care if you fill up your party with pink-haired orlan females that kills dragons left and right because you think they're pretty, why would you care if he prefers 1-2 females because of human gender dimorphism? Other than virulent brainwash through rote repetition and offence by proxy?

 

Just adding my two cents?

 

I personally think how much someone works out or the like is far more likely to play a role in who's stronger than gender is. What I mean is I've known plenty of guys with very arrogant and misogynistic beliefs that they're stronger than women by default....but not all of them bothered working out. Then lo and behold a woman that does comes along and outmatches him.

 

Having said that, I recently saw a statistic that was pretty conclusive. It showed how typically, Olympic runners for example (believe it was runners) will have such a gap that the slowest male runner outperforms the fastest female runner. That's pretty damning evidence that would definitely suggest that yes, of course when you have two people both equally dedicated to a physical activity, the male will have the advantage.

Likewise and just as a last example, a friend of mine does judo and haekido I believe. Discovered, to my surprise, that I'm stronger than her. I do not work out. The only work outs I have to my name are that walking with one leg is more taxing on your muscles (I naturally build leg muscle) and when I use crutches around the house or the like, then there's some arm muscle. That's it really. So yeah, that was surprising for me but also speaks quite a bit about the advantage men have.

 

 

Also, this post is hilarious:

 

 

But i will try and make it really simple for you.

*rolls eyes*

 

No, I understood you, the number is still irrelevant. But thanks for assuming I'm just stupid.

 

The point is that woman are in the military at all. You attributing real world blueprints such as HOW MANY WOMEN ARE IN THE MILITARY and WEIGHT to a fantasy game is just... why? If you're constantly on the look out for "inconsistency" or whatnot, how are you possibly going to have any fun? Does it really matter to you that much that there are female wizards in a fantasy game?

 

Does it matter to you that much that other people are playing female PMs that you have to come into a forum thread and state that you think it is unnatural (well, I mean, unnatural except if they are love interests, according to you)?

 

The why is spelled out for you: immersion. He wants the world to feel believable for him, and it loses a degree of that when he has all these stronk women in squad.

 

To everything else? Dude where on EARTH did he say that he takes offense to anyone else playing as females or that his goal is to rain on everyone else's parade? He stated a personal preference because this thread asked for it. You are the one reading too much into things. He only grew hostile after you were already at his throat.

 

Well said.

 

Also if one were to check records between men and women before the dawn of anabolic steroids etc the gap would be much bigger than today (yes both legal and illegal drugs are used when it comes to olympics etc).

[Tennisgolfboll]

I love how this dude is going out of his way to say the even with a severe disadvantage, women are still inferior to men.

What a crazy worldview you must have.

 

A very low ranked football team of men crushes the best one of women But you dont seem capable of accepting the truth of that fact without thinking this makes women inferior.

 

So was your mother superior to you when she picked you up when you were 7?

 

Are you superior to your father as he turns 50 and you 20? (A football team of 50+ men would lose to a 20 year old one)

 

 

Am i superior to my wife because i can lift more than 500 pounds?

 

When i grow old and can only lift 80% of that am i somehow worth less?

 

I just dont agree with your ideas about what it means for value of a human being that men and women have a different gene and hormonal profiles. i think men and women are two halves of one whole. If one were to be removed mankind would end, i do not view men and women as adversaries but as vital support to one another.

 

But this is a waste.of time.

 

I just wantes to say i prefer 1-2 women in my warparty. In PoE pallegina is my favorite woman to include. Would have liked calisca.

 

Im done with this topic

Edited May 28, 2015 by Tennisgolfboll

[Amentep]

I agree with all said except your real world example.

 

I am a powerlifter and i can tell you that even if a woman trains her whole life she wont be as strong as a big and broad man who spends his time drinking etc. There are unique exceptions were they could get as strong because of their genes and drugs as the big couch man but if that man had the same genetic gifts he would again be stronger by sitting on his ass.

 

When you then factor in martial training and lifting the genes and hormonal profile makes the difference even bigger between men and women. For example a terrible division 12 football team of men would destroy the best female team in the whole world even if they were on drugs (and the drugs even it out alot). And i mean destroy. The women wouldn't stand a chance.

A lot of this is going to depend on the man and the woman in question but...

 

A man who sits on his couch drinking (ie fat slob) may out-mass the top 100% woman.  With respect to natural height distributions he would, on average, out reach her.  Both of these would be huge advantages in direct contact competition.  I have no qualms in saying that the elite athlete guy in a field is going to beat the elite athlete woman in a field. The football team example you mention would work (most of the time) not because the men were necessarily stronger (although they could be), but because football relies on mass and reach - something the average man will always have over the average woman and does not alter with training/skill.

 

But if you get a fat slob who can barely lift himself in a gym vs a woman training to be a weightlifter (lets say olympic level so she can power lift ~600lbs), he's not going to immediately beat her.  His mass and ability to shift it might give him some natural strength, but if he can barely lift his 300lb self off the couch, her training is going to win in the short term. 

[Nakia]

I am finding this discussion very confusing.  What does the fact that generally speaking men have greater upper body strength than women have to do with fantasy game warriors?  

 

The party members whether pre-made or hired adventurers are unique characters.  This is a role playing game and it is up to the player how he or she wants to play the game and build their characters.

 

In this game we are not playing a sport we are fighting to the death which is a totally different thing.  The goal is to win, to survive and I will use any means at hand to do so.  My rogues fight dirty if needed, My barbarian uses what ever skills he/she has.  As Sagani says my arrows are faster than you can run.  My party members are enhanced via rings, cloaks, enchanted weapons and armour.  

 

At the moment my current  party is all male but I will shortly switch the GM in not because she is female but because I want her special talents.

 

I am playing a game but my characters are not.  

[Amentep]

I am finding this discussion very confusing.  What does the fact that generally speaking men have greater upper body strength than women have to do with fantasy game warriors?

Nothing. Not to mention non-humans in a fantasy setting are even less beholden to "the natural world" applications of sexual dimorphism found in humans.

 

 

At the moment my current  party is all male but I will shortly switch the GM in not because she is female but because I want her special talents.

 

I am playing a game but my characters are not.

I've currently got Female PC Wizard, Eder, Kana, Sagani, Hiravias and Grieving Mother. Eder, Kana and Itumaak tank, Hiravias splits time between attacking behind everyone with a spear and using spells while the PC, Sagani and Grieving Mother attack from a distance.

 

Works for me.

[Omnicron]

I just found a really good reason to play a female barbarian:

 

 

 

along with another reason which is almost as good:

 

and one which is just plain creepy:

[Bryy]

I just found a really good reason to play a female barbarian:

 

 

 

along with another reason which is almost as good:

 

Already have the last one, but yoinking these ones for the Triple Crown run.

[Nexus0]

After reading all the replies, i have to agree that the male voices sound off, like some older unlikable guy did them. Obsidian, hire some younger sounding, charismatic VO talent. Also on an unrelated note, Never Winter Nights, had the worst VO for the main character choices, I think.

[PlotinusRedux]

Custom party I run with all moon god-like, with my main male and the other 5 female so I can use the 1 male moon avatar for my main and the 1 female moon avatar for the other 5 and easily identify my main.  Of course the opposite would work as well--1 female main and 5 male companions, and of course you could use non-moon avatars.  For the same reason I use the body style of Human for my main and Dwarf for the other 5--makes it easier to find my main in combat.