Are Ciphers garbage after 1.05?

[abaris]

 

They're like the one class that's well served by staying mobile on the battlefield right now, which is an interesting change of pace from the usual static nature of combat positioning. The developers could try to bring them back in line with their original intention by curtailing the Cipher's area effects, but they might be better served by refining the Cipher for the role it's fallen into.

 

 

There's also an argument to be made for the wizard to stay mobile, since some of their strongest spells require a free line of sight. There's that flamethrower spell on the second level that's quite deadly even against heavily armed opponents, but equally deadly to the own group if cought in the blaze. There's also the crackling bolt on level 4, which is way more effective than the fireball.

[Ineth]

Cypher is still a kickass character. I've got the stats to prove it in my current game. Highest overall damage output of the group

 

You must not have a Rogue or Druid in your group (or if you do, you're letting their potential go to waste).

 

There's also an argument to be made for the wizard to stay mobile, since some of their strongest spells require a free line of sight. There's that flamethrower spell on the second level that's quite deadly even against heavily armed opponents, but equally deadly to the own group if cought in the blaze.

 

Provided your Wizard has high INT (which he should), you can also safely cast Fan of Flames from behind the party by using the foe-only extended radius to your advantage.

[Elerond]

 

it could also be argued that if class don't work fine in its intended role, but it works fine in some other role then there is also problem in its design, but not necessary as big.

 

A problem in the developers' execution of their ideas, perhaps, but not necessarily a problem for the player. I think by happy accident the Cipher has fallen into a role where it alternates between single target DPS and area DPS that requires precise positioning in a way that makes them interesting to play. They're like the one class that's well served by staying mobile on the battlefield right now, which is an interesting change of pace from the usual static nature of combat positioning. The developers could try to bring them back in line with their original intention by curtailing the Cipher's area effects, but they might be better served by refining the Cipher for the role it's fallen into.

 

 

But do they actually play poorly in their intended role, that was the question. As they have bonuses in their weapon damage and some of their spells do powerful singe target damage. Addition to those they have spell that let them to work in other roles, like AoE spells that you mentioned and mind control spells and so on spells. Meaning that if they work fine in role where they were intended then topics premise that they are garbage is wrong, if they don't work fine in role where they were intended, but work fine in other roles, then topic may have some merits, and if they work fine in role where they were intended and in some other roles, then especially premise of topic is wrong. Also I argue against notion to measure ciphers worth by comparing them to wizards and druids as they are intended to different role, especially if wizards and druids can't perform better in that role in which ciphers were intended to.  

[taek]

I don't even mentally compare Ciphers to Wizards or Druids.  

Wizards require careful management of their spells and pacing. And you do tend to save them for big encounters, or time the use of your camping supplies. They're fine on 2nd playthroughs but I had a terrible time w/ my wizard on my 1st playthrough when I had no idea when a big encounter would happen and my wizard would often be caught with his pants down.

 

First playthrough is all that matters. This isn't an MMO where you grind the same content over & over again. The vast majority of players will play once and be done with it.

 

In that context, the flexible nature of Ciphers makes them more useful.

 

Readiness is more important than raw damage potential. A grenade launcher has more power in a single application than an AR-16, but the AR-16 is a far more useful weapon overall in more situations.

 

 

 

 

[Tigranes]

Cipher was far too easy to pick up & spam, it is still powerful when built and used properly, just no longer a no-brainer pew pew. 

[abaris]

Cipher was far too easy to pick up & spam, it is still powerful when built and used properly, just no longer a no-brainer pew pew. 

 

Which is kind of interesting, since the game sites all chimed in in saying you only should select cypher as an experienced player. Which made me refrain from playing one in the beginning andf ultimately made me lose even more trust in the validity of jusgment of game sites.

[MadDemiurg]

99.9% of game sites "guides" are utter garbage.

 

You must not have a Rogue or Druid in your group (or if you do, you're letting their potential go to waste).

Cipher outdamages the rogue even post nerfs. If he doesn't you're letting his potential go to waste. Also, Wizard easily outdamages the Druid.

Edited May 9, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[the streaker]

IMO the power spectrum of caster classes in the game version 1.04 went like this (from most to least powerful):

1. well-played Druid
2. well-played Wizard
3. ---significant gap---
4. Cipher (play style doesn't make much difference, since their combat resources are so care-free)
5. naively or impatiently played Druid/Wizard

 

Oh man, we must have been playing a different game!!!

 

Did you manage to ever get your cipher to level 11? Amplified wave - (maybe shoot blunderbuss if bored) - amplified wave - shoot blunderbuss - amplified wave.

 

Everything in a 12m radius dead and spent the -entire- fight on the ground.

 

I would definitely love to hear how well you can play the druid and wizard to beat that but such a large margin, I really would!

Edited May 9, 2015 by the streaker

[Wolken3156]

Which is kind of interesting, since the game sites all chimed in in saying you only should select cypher as an experienced player. Which made me refrain from playing one in the beginning andf ultimately made me lose even more trust in the validity of jusgment of game sites.

 

There's not a single reliable online guide at the moment. If you need help or any queries, asking here will prove more fruitful. Everyone's here to help... I think ^^

 

But yeah, Cipher is very easy to play. The bread and butter combo is to cast Mental Binding, shoot target being bound to get focus back, repeat. Later on you can mix it up with other powers as well as your focus pool gets larger. About the most complicated thing this class has is using their best damage power, Ectopsychic Echo, without killing your party.

[MadDemiurg]

 

IMO the power spectrum of caster classes in the game version 1.04 went like this (from most to least powerful):

1. well-played Druid
2. well-played Wizard
3. ---significant gap---
4. Cipher (play style doesn't make much difference, since their combat resources are so care-free)
5. naively or impatiently played Druid/Wizard

 

Oh man, we must have been playing a different game!!!

 

Did you manage to ever get your cipher to level 11? Amplified wave - (maybe shoot blunderbuss if bored) - amplified wave - shoot blunderbuss - amplified wave.

 

Everything in a 12m radius dead and spent the -entire- fight on the ground.

 

I would definitely love to hear how well you can play the druid and wizard to beat that but such a large margin, I really would!

 

As of 1.05 blunderbuss isn't working as well for focus gen unless you use drugs. It is possible to use arbalest/arquebus/pistol/dual sabers to almost the same effect though. You can also open with only 1 AW now. The big problems of AW is that it targets fort, which is quite high for most tough enemies. So while AW spam obliterates trash encounters it doesn't work that well in many boss fights. Priest/Wiz otoh have spells that work very well in most cases. They would never outdamage a level 11+ cipher though, since he racks up damage like crazy on trash encounters. But to me it is weird how people rate the class performance on damage dealt in trash fights, which has nothing to do with your party/class effectiveness. The only thing trash fight performance influences is clear speed.

Edited May 9, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Blovski]

 

 

IMO the power spectrum of caster classes in the game version 1.04 went like this (from most to least powerful):

1. well-played Druid
2. well-played Wizard
3. ---significant gap---
4. Cipher (play style doesn't make much difference, since their combat resources are so care-free)
5. naively or impatiently played Druid/Wizard

 

Oh man, we must have been playing a different game!!!

 

Did you manage to ever get your cipher to level 11? Amplified wave - (maybe shoot blunderbuss if bored) - amplified wave - shoot blunderbuss - amplified wave.

 

Everything in a 12m radius dead and spent the -entire- fight on the ground.

 

I would definitely love to hear how well you can play the druid and wizard to beat that but such a large margin, I really would!

 

As of 1.05 blunderbuss isn't working as well for focus gen unless you use drugs. It is possible to use arbalest/arquebus/pistol/dual sabers to almost the same effect though. You can also open with only 1 AW now. The big problems of AW is that it targets fort, which is quite high for most tough enemies. So while AW spam obliterates trash encounters it doesn't work that well in many boss fights. Priest/Wiz otoh have spells that work very well in most cases. They would never outdamage a level 11+ cipher though, since he racks up damage like crazy on trash encounters. But to me it is weird how people rate the class performance on damage dealt in trash fights, which has nothing to do with your party/class effectiveness. The only thing trash fight performance influences is clear speed.

 

That said, Ciphers have a lot of excellent abilities that target tough enemies' Will defences, a couple of decent anti-reflex ones, and especially abilities which can massively lower enemy will to make other skills work better. Also, targeting Fort is incredible vs. Vithracks, which are one of the toughest opponents in the game right now imo.

[Psychevore]

Garbage?

 

Lol. Drama much? You can't spam Mental Binding at the start of battle anymore. At least, not as much as you could before. And if that was all you did, then yeah, Ciphers suck now. But Ciphers are way more than just mental binding.

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

 

IMO the power spectrum of caster classes in the game version 1.04 went like this (from most to least powerful):

1. well-played Druid
2. well-played Wizard
3. ---significant gap---
4. Cipher (play style doesn't make much difference, since their combat resources are so care-free)
5. naively or impatiently played Druid/Wizard

 

Oh man, we must have been playing a different game!!!

 

Did you manage to ever get your cipher to level 11? Amplified wave - (maybe shoot blunderbuss if bored) - amplified wave - shoot blunderbuss - amplified wave.

 

Everything in a 12m radius dead and spent the -entire- fight on the ground.

 

I would definitely love to hear how well you can play the druid and wizard to beat that but such a large margin, I really would!

 

As of 1.05 blunderbuss isn't working as well for focus gen unless you use drugs. It is possible to use arbalest/arquebus/pistol/dual sabers to almost the same effect though. You can also open with only 1 AW now. The big problems of AW is that it targets fort, which is quite high for most tough enemies. So while AW spam obliterates trash encounters it doesn't work that well in many boss fights. Priest/Wiz otoh have spells that work very well in most cases. They would never outdamage a level 11+ cipher though, since he racks up damage like crazy on trash encounters. But to me it is weird how people rate the class performance on damage dealt in trash fights, which has nothing to do with your party/class effectiveness. The only thing trash fight performance influences is clear speed.

 

That said, Ciphers have a lot of excellent abilities that target tough enemies' Will defences, a couple of decent anti-reflex ones, and especially abilities which can massively lower enemy will to make other skills work better. Also, targeting Fort is incredible vs. Vithracks, which are one of the toughest opponents in the game right now imo.

 

Yeah, but from my experience with casters (which is quite extensive) ciphers do not have as many gamechanging spells as say priest (who was the MVP of any tough fight I had). I'm not saying they're bad, I just don't agree with the whole "cipher is OP" outcry, which imo has more to do with the skill level of the players (cipher is easier to use in general).

 

In my experience original frontline/striker/mob ruler/leader classification doesn't really work as well. Many classes work much better in other roles than the intended one, and from my experience of building parties I have 3 main roles I try to fill: tank, nova, trash mob grinder(1 is usually enough in this role). Ciphers sit somewhere between grinder and nova (drugs) roles atm.

Edited May 9, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Raven Darkholme]

I think there is no better trash mob grinder than cipher.

[abaris]

 

You must not have a Rogue or Druid in your group (or if you do, you're letting their potential go to waste).

 

 

No, my Cypher fills in for the rogue, since the mechanics skill is pretty easy to max out with that class and there's really no point in getting any other talents, except for a bit of stealth and athletics.

[MadDemiurg]

I think there is no better trash mob grinder than cipher.

He is, but I won't call this a balance problem. Imo a class that requires more micro and skill to play (cipher does) should be better at the high end of the skill and micro that classes that do not, otherwise what's the point? 1 button classes are for the times when you're feeling lazy.

[the streaker]

 

 

IMO the power spectrum of caster classes in the game version 1.04 went like this (from most to least powerful):

1. well-played Druid
2. well-played Wizard
3. ---significant gap---
4. Cipher (play style doesn't make much difference, since their combat resources are so care-free)
5. naively or impatiently played Druid/Wizard

 

Oh man, we must have been playing a different game!!!

 

Did you manage to ever get your cipher to level 11? Amplified wave - (maybe shoot blunderbuss if bored) - amplified wave - shoot blunderbuss - amplified wave.

 

Everything in a 12m radius dead and spent the -entire- fight on the ground.

 

I would definitely love to hear how well you can play the druid and wizard to beat that but such a large margin, I really would!

 

As of 1.05 blunderbuss isn't working as well for focus gen unless you use drugs. It is possible to use arbalest/arquebus/pistol/dual sabers to almost the same effect though. You can also open with only 1 AW now. The big problems of AW is that it targets fort, which is quite high for most tough enemies. So while AW spam obliterates trash encounters it doesn't work that well in many boss fights. Priest/Wiz otoh have spells that work very well in most cases. They would never outdamage a level 11+ cipher though, since he racks up damage like crazy on trash encounters. But to me it is weird how people rate the class performance on damage dealt in trash fights, which has nothing to do with your party/class effectiveness. The only thing trash fight performance influences is clear speed.

 

 

We were talking about pre-1.05 ciphers, see above.

 

The comment on fortitude is not fair, the cipher has great spells that target will, so there's something for everyone. Large/strong enemies have high fortitude, but a lot of high-priority targets are not large and do not. Gaze of the adragan is one of the wizard's best spells, and I've never heard anyone say it's trash only because it targets fort. A graze still gets you 50% duration of a great effect.

 

Which wizard and priest spells would you say set them above cipher in terms of effectiveness?

Edited May 9, 2015 by the streaker

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

 

IMO the power spectrum of caster classes in the game version 1.04 went like this (from most to least powerful):

1. well-played Druid
2. well-played Wizard
3. ---significant gap---
4. Cipher (play style doesn't make much difference, since their combat resources are so care-free)
5. naively or impatiently played Druid/Wizard

 

Oh man, we must have been playing a different game!!!

 

Did you manage to ever get your cipher to level 11? Amplified wave - (maybe shoot blunderbuss if bored) - amplified wave - shoot blunderbuss - amplified wave.

 

Everything in a 12m radius dead and spent the -entire- fight on the ground.

 

I would definitely love to hear how well you can play the druid and wizard to beat that but such a large margin, I really would!

 

As of 1.05 blunderbuss isn't working as well for focus gen unless you use drugs. It is possible to use arbalest/arquebus/pistol/dual sabers to almost the same effect though. You can also open with only 1 AW now. The big problems of AW is that it targets fort, which is quite high for most tough enemies. So while AW spam obliterates trash encounters it doesn't work that well in many boss fights. Priest/Wiz otoh have spells that work very well in most cases. They would never outdamage a level 11+ cipher though, since he racks up damage like crazy on trash encounters. But to me it is weird how people rate the class performance on damage dealt in trash fights, which has nothing to do with your party/class effectiveness. The only thing trash fight performance influences is clear speed.

 

 

We were talking about pre-1.05 ciphers, see above.

 

The comment on fortitude is not fair, the cipher has great spells that target will, so there's something for everyone. Large/strong enemies have high fortitude, but a lot of high-priority targets are not large and do not. Gaze of the adragan is one of the wizard's best spells, and I've never heard anyone say it's trash only because it targets fort. A graze still gets you 50% duration of a great effect.

 

Which wizard and priest spells would you say set them above cipher in terms of effectiveness?

 

If I make a list of my favorite spells and explain why it will become the nerf list for the next patch so I won't . Check my vids in this thread http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79181-paladin-solo-vs-adra-dragon-potd/ (and i'm actually avoiding the most cheesy stuff there). Try to replicate this with cipher (Well, this fight IS doable with cipher, but needs much more finesse as of 1.05).

Edited May 9, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Kaigen42]

So while AW spam obliterates trash encounters it doesn't work that well in many boss fights. Priest/Wiz otoh have spells that work very well in most cases. They would never outdamage a level 11+ cipher though, since he racks up damage like crazy on trash encounters. But to me it is weird how people rate the class performance on damage dealt in trash fights, which has nothing to do with your party/class effectiveness. The only thing trash fight performance influences is clear speed.

 

 

I think there's two things going on here. The first is that people measure performance in different ways and part of that is "How much trouble do I have to go through to defeat all of the trash encounters on this map?" PoE has lots and lots of trash encounters, and being able to clear those with a minimum of fuss feels better than having to queue up a bunch of shift-clicked spells every time the combat music starts. It's a different standard than "How easy are the harder fights in the game to defeat with this group?", but it has its place (especially since you're likely cheesing the hell out of the Adra Dragon anyway). The other thing is that while the Cipher doesn't shine as brightly as the full casters in the toughest fights, it's still perfectly serviceable. Most boss fights in this game tend to have a lot of trash around that can be cleared out efficiently with the assistance of a Cipher, and you always have Mental Binding as a fallback, considering it's pretty reliable even against tough enemies.

[MadDemiurg]

The value of doing well in trash encounters goes down as the game progresses though as they barely scratch your party anyway, so as I said only clear speed changes. And yes, you can make ciphers work well enough in boss fights (and they even have some things going for them like super high single target accuracy), however I'd rather ditch a cipher than a priest  or wizard from my party if given a choice. There's usually enough space for all of them though. 

[the streaker]

 

 

 

 

IMO the power spectrum of caster classes in the game version 1.04 went like this (from most to least powerful):

1. well-played Druid
2. well-played Wizard
3. ---significant gap---
4. Cipher (play style doesn't make much difference, since their combat resources are so care-free)
5. naively or impatiently played Druid/Wizard

 

Oh man, we must have been playing a different game!!!

 

Did you manage to ever get your cipher to level 11? Amplified wave - (maybe shoot blunderbuss if bored) - amplified wave - shoot blunderbuss - amplified wave.

 

Everything in a 12m radius dead and spent the -entire- fight on the ground.

 

I would definitely love to hear how well you can play the druid and wizard to beat that but such a large margin, I really would!

 

As of 1.05 blunderbuss isn't working as well for focus gen unless you use drugs. It is possible to use arbalest/arquebus/pistol/dual sabers to almost the same effect though. You can also open with only 1 AW now. The big problems of AW is that it targets fort, which is quite high for most tough enemies. So while AW spam obliterates trash encounters it doesn't work that well in many boss fights. Priest/Wiz otoh have spells that work very well in most cases. They would never outdamage a level 11+ cipher though, since he racks up damage like crazy on trash encounters. But to me it is weird how people rate the class performance on damage dealt in trash fights, which has nothing to do with your party/class effectiveness. The only thing trash fight performance influences is clear speed.

 

 

We were talking about pre-1.05 ciphers, see above.

 

The comment on fortitude is not fair, the cipher has great spells that target will, so there's something for everyone. Large/strong enemies have high fortitude, but a lot of high-priority targets are not large and do not. Gaze of the adragan is one of the wizard's best spells, and I've never heard anyone say it's trash only because it targets fort. A graze still gets you 50% duration of a great effect.

 

Which wizard and priest spells would you say set them above cipher in terms of effectiveness?

 

If I make a list of my favorite spells and explain why it will become the nerf list for the next patch so I won't . Check my vids in this thread http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79181-paladin-solo-vs-adra-dragon-potd/ (and i'm actually avoiding the most cheesy stuff there). Try to replicate this with cipher (Well, this fight IS doable with cipher, but needs much more finesse as of 1.05).

 

too long, can you post a summary re: group play wiz/priest?

[Razorchain]

Still OP. Though at this point that has less to do with Ciphers and more to do with the ability of casters to blanket the battlefield with overpowered CC and overpowered Afflictions. Blind is gobsmackingly powerful, for example, and it's an entry-level debuff.

 

Once the two items mentioned above are addressed Ciphers along with other casters will be closer to being admitted into the promised land of balance. Interestingly, Cipher will likely remain more balanced than Vancian casters in the long run, because I doubt Rest spam will ever really be dealt with, instead the devs made a decision to paper over the issue with the Camping Supplies system, and call it a day.

 

I must disagree, playing a low level caster is actually useful in this game.  Gone are the days when I spent my 2 magic missiles, did pitiful damage and contributed almost nothing to a fight the first few levels.  Even the low level "spells" are good through the whole game.  

 

It's your choice if you wan't to blanket the battlefield with CC's and afflictions.  You could always go with a Fighter, Paladin, Monk, Rouge, Barbarian, Ranger in your party and limit yourself to a couple of casters or even one.  The chanter is even a pseudo caster as you'll almost never manage more than 1 or 2 casts per fight, even when I played lower difficulty than Potd there were so many instances that the fight was over when I could cast my first "Spell".

 

It doesn't mean that every spell has to be nerfed to the ground, where is the fun in that?  Well I'm opposed to balancing nitpicks, I'm all right with a semblance of balance, not giving a wizard a 1st level spell that does 100 points of damage with accuracy +50.  But I have no problem with some classes being more powerful than others.  

 

I've played around with most of the classes and finished the game with most of them on both hard and Potd (Ranger excluded though I had Sagani in my party for some time) and I enjoy what most of them contribute to the game though the Paladin, one of my personal favorites from other games, has a bit of lackluster abilities.

 

Yes there will be people who go through the game with 6 ciphers and brag about how potd is easy when you spam charms and paralyze.  Yes there will be people make 6 moon godlike monks and spam Torments Reach or stack retaliation items and will brag about how they pwned the adra dragon.  But you know what, I don't care as long as they are having fun and I'm having fun.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Razorchain

[Ineth]

I must disagree, playing a low level caster is actually useful in this game.  Gone are the days when I spent my 2 magic missiles, did pitiful damage and contributed almost nothing to a fight the first few levels.

 

Wizards in the IE games contributed quite a bit to low-level fights.

 

For example using the first-level spell Sleep, which could make groups of goblins or orcs that would otherwise mow the party to shreds with bows (or even the tough Ogre battle at the start of Icewind Dale), quite manageable.

 

And the Magic Missile spell wasn't "pitiful" either - it did some decent guaranteed-to-hit near-instant ranged damage against low-level enemies, and was a must for interrupting enemy spellcasters.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Ineth

[Raven Darkholme]

 

I must disagree, playing a low level caster is actually useful in this game.  Gone are the days when I spent my 2 magic missiles, did pitiful damage and contributed almost nothing to a fight the first few levels.

 

Wizards in the IE games contributed quite a bit to low-level fights.

 

For example using the first-level spell Sleep, which could make groups of goblins or orcs that would otherwise mow the party to shreds with bows (or even the tough Ogre battle at the start of Icewind Dale), quite manageable.

 

And the Magic Missile spell wasn't "pitiful" either - it did some decent guaranteed-to-hit near-instant ranged damage against low-level enemies, and was a must for interrupting enemy spellcasters.

 

I think you mistake higher level MM with lower level MM as it scales and is pitiful at low.

[Ineth]

It doesn't do much damage at low levels, but most enemies also don't have much hitpoints in the early parts of the games.

 

Don't underestimate the "guaranteed to hit" property - with his bow, the same low-level mage would probably miss most things most of the time.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Ineth