One repeatedly answered question again..Warbow or Arbalest?

[Larsenex]

So i started a new 'normal' game for 1.05. I HATE the lack of focus on my Cypher. It sucks. I dont like it. 

 

I made a ranged rogue. I read the previous thread on an Optimum PoTD build and he was preferring a War Bow. I read another thread that said Arbalests are very good. 

 

My rogue will run around in a Fine robe and avoid hits like a wilting flower I may even just get fine clothes. 

 

Since Hold Wall is not working with its speed buff, what would be a good weapon in the hands of a Ranged rogue? 

 

I am wood elf, 18 str, 19 dex, and already took Marksman and Dirty Fighting. So I am about to pick a weapon focus for the accuracy. 

 

Sooooo... What will it be? Warbow (cloudpiercer) or a plain old enchanted Arbalest?

 

Thanks!

[MoxyWoo]

Posted some numbers on the other thread from the 1.05 attack speed spreadsheet, but basically vs DR 20 and below, crossbow came ahead assuming all talents for hit to crit + sneak attack modifiers, etc.

 

About +50% more than warbow, its because of the lack of -crit modifiers.

 

Also tack on "Good Friend" Crossbow modifiers and the damage is even higher.

 

If I remember from another thread... the "stun" from the "Wrecker" also isn't a true stun debuff, just has them not move for a bit but their stats remain the same.   Prone does, but CC might be left to other party members anyway.

 

I'd assume Arbalest pulls similar better dps for the rogue then.

Edited May 5, 2015 by MoxyWoo

[Crucis]

Larsenex, personally I prefer higher ROF weapons for Ranged Rogues, except for their first shot from stealth, which I like using a high alpha weapon.  Then I switch to a faster firing weapon, because I like the flexibility of being able to switch targets more quickly due to the faster reload.  But that's personal preference. I also enjoy Cloudpiercer's spell-striking Jolting Touch effect.  (I also added a shocking lash to the Cloudpiercer bow for RP reasons.)

 

Also, regarding Arbalests, given that they have a somewhat reduced Crit Hit multiplier, perhaps they're not the best choice for Rogues if you expect to get Crits regularly.  You might be better off using normal crossbows or arquebusses.

[Narla]

 I seem to remember finding an exceptional arbalest before an exceptional warbow, and there's a fine arbalest (in the first town's shop) way before the first fine warbow.

 

 However I still find warbow much more fun to play since reloads are boring and reloading weapons are hard to use for kiting. But the damage on arbalests is just so

[Crucis]

 I seem to remember finding an exceptional arbalest before an exceptional warbow, and there's a fine arbalest (in the first town's shop) way before the first fine warbow.

 

 However I still find warbow much more fun to play since reloads are boring and reloading weapons are hard to use for kiting. But the damage on arbalests is just so

 

Yes, but despite being available in Gilded Vale early on, it's far too expensive to reasonably afford for quite a while. 

 

And I agree with you that slow reloads are boring.

 

And what is "Kiting"?  I don't do gamer geekspeak.

[Schyzm]

 I seem to remember finding an exceptional arbalest before an exceptional warbow, and there's a fine arbalest (in the first town's shop) way before the first fine warbow.

 

 However I still find warbow much more fun to play since reloads are boring and reloading weapons are hard to use for kiting. But the damage on arbalests is just so

 

yah I once had found 4 fine arbalests by the time I finished raedric, there's also a 1.2 attack speed for sale and a fine arbalest that will continuously refresh for sale, it feels like the easiest weapon to get in quality early by a mile. I wonder if that was intentional kinda poking people to use arbalests so they dont' get mad at their min damage hunting bows.

[Eos]

Because of the fixed nature of Damage Reduction, slower weapons tend to be more effective. Your highest damage option is the pistol Ducanale from the Act3 shop in Twin Elms. After that it should be Hold Wall (assuming the speed modifier works correctly).

 

Don't really see why you would use a quick firing ranged weapon. IIRC, all damage and attack speed modifiers in the game are %-based, meaning that they scale appropriately with your weapon. The only thing that's fixed is Damage Reduction, which reduces your damage dealt no matter how quick or slow you attack, putting slow weapons that deal there damage in large chunks ahead of fast weapons. So unless you're making use of your faster attack speed via some other means (i.e. more interrupts, quicker application of status effects, some other weapon mod, etc.), you should stick to slow weapons for raw damage.

[Narla]

 

 I seem to remember finding an exceptional arbalest before an exceptional warbow, and there's a fine arbalest (in the first town's shop) way before the first fine warbow.

 

 However I still find warbow much more fun to play since reloads are boring and reloading weapons are hard to use for kiting. But the damage on arbalests is just so

 

Yes, but despite being available in Gilded Vale early on, it's far too expensive to reasonably afford for quite a while. 

 

And I agree with you that slow reloads are boring.

 

And what is "Kiting"?  I don't do gamer geekspeak.

 

 

 If you sell most of the things it's possible ot buy 1 of the good items from the first town's shop really early.

 

 Kiting is shooting, retreating until shot ready, and repeating, possibly using slowing effects on enemies/speeding effects on allies. This is exceedingly powerful against some enemies that leash (meaning they stop chasing and go back to their original position) since you can kite them around their leash range without ever being attacked.

[Razorchain]

I find that Warbow is good for exploiting the opportunity to get sneak attacks because its faster. You may have a short window of opportunity to get in a shot especially on potd where you get lots of grazes

[b0rsuk]

Kiting:

When you move faster than your enemy, have enough room for retreating, and more range, you can retreat forever, stopping only to shoot once you build up enough distance.

Edited May 5, 2015 by b0rsuk

[CriticalFailure]

Sorry for derailing the thread, but while we're at it, I've seen some people use the word "alpha" a lot on this forums ("alpha weapon" was mentioned in in this thread, this post has a couple more examples, etc). I know what "alpha" means in general, but not in the context of gaming.

[Eos]

Sorry for derailing the thread, but while we're at it, I've seen some people use the word "alpha" a lot on this forums ("alpha weapon" was mentioned in in this thread, this post has a couple more examples, etc). I know what "alpha" means in general, but not in the context of gaming.

 

'Alpha weapon' isn't really a thing. But alpha strike is. It's the initial attack; not only in gaming but also in real life. It refers to using a slow ranged weapon to deliver your initial attack, before switching to a faster weapon for the rest of the fight. This gives you a big initial burst and circumvents the long reload time of the slow weapon.

[CriticalFailure]

All right, thanks. I had figured that much about "alpha strike", but I was confused about other uses of the word, such as the aforementioned "alpha weapon". Now I see that the post I linked is referring to "alpha strike" too.

[Crucis]

All right, thanks. I had figured that much about "alpha strike", but I was confused about other uses of the word, such as the aforementioned "alpha weapon". Now I see that the post I linked is referring to "alpha strike" too.

 

I sort of assume (perhaps wrongly) that when one says "alpha weapon" what they mean is a "high alpha weapon", which in turn would mean a weapon with a high amount of damage, such as an arbalest or a gun.

 

[Raven Darkholme]

Yeah I guess the weapon you use first before switching to a faster one.

[Cacophonix]

Thanks for the replies. Two points of view here. One says slower weapons (Arbalest) is better, the other is that faster weapons will give more crit opportunity. How is the War Bow against higher DR enemies? I like that I can sneak and get a very good alpha strike on with the Arbalest but you are correct the load times are silly.

[Atchod]

I find that Warbow is good for exploiting the opportunity to get sneak attacks because its faster. You may have a short window of opportunity to get in a shot especially on potd where you get lots of grazes

This .

People who does not agree are simply low level "theorycrafters" or speculators .

[Raven Darkholme]

I

 

I find that Warbow is good for exploiting the opportunity to get sneak attacks because its faster. You may have a short window of opportunity to get in a shot especially on potd where you get lots of grazes

 

This .

People who does not agree are simply low level "theorycrafters" or speculators .

I don't agree. My rogue party has 4 melee 1 cipher and PC rogue. You never run out of sneak attacks when you can flank all the time and still are able to blind, KD, hobble and so forth.

[rheingold]

Let's stay classy people, really it's only a game.

[Crucis]

 

 

I find that Warbow is good for exploiting the opportunity to get sneak attacks because its faster. You may have a short window of opportunity to get in a shot especially on potd where you get lots of grazes

This .

People who does not agree are simply low level "theorycrafters" or speculators .

 

 

Or they just prefer to use a different weapon and aren't so bothered about efficiency. I use an Arbalest on my Rogue and don't care about the faster rate of fire because it works well for me.

 

 

Very true.  And I often use a warbow on a ranger or a rogue when others insist that I should be using something like an arquebus or other higher damaging weapon.  I don't play the game to worry about maximum efficiency and maximum DPS.  And these arguments by min-maxing powergamers get really annoying to those who don't subscribe to this attitude.  They were annoying back when BG1/2 were new and are no less annoying today, except perhaps that their arguments are filled with gamer geekspeak that I don't understand, like proc or kiting and so forth.  (Back when BG1/2 were new, I don't recall any of that sort of gamer geek speak.  As I remember it, we actually spoke regular English back then.)

 

 

[rheingold]

Showing your age Crucis?

Seriously can't we create a forum for the oldies, no children allowed, say an age restriction of 40 or so!

[Akimbo]

 

I don't mind min/max, but when people get insulting to others who don't subscribe to the same gameplay style it's a little sad.

 

Back on topic, I think the "correct" answer would actually be "both".

 

You use the Arbalest vs high DR opponents or for the initial alpha-strike. You'd use the warbow vs. lower DR enemies, or with some levels under your belt, it'd be possible to replace the Arbalest with a Warbow altogether assuming you can set up sneak attacks constantly, use DR debuffs and know where to find the good bows early on.

[Crucis]

Showing your age Crucis?

Seriously can't we create a forum for the oldies, no children allowed, say an age restriction of 40 or so!

 

Yeah, I probably am.  Sue me for being .... over 40 ... and liking this sort of game. 

 

I should say that I recognize a few other people here whose handles I recognize from back then.  Gromniir.  Wanderon.  And some others a bit more vaguely.  There are plenty of people who liked the DnD IE games from back then.  And heck, it wouldn't surprise me if some of those are old enough to have played the even older SSI gold and silver box DnD computer games as well.

[Akimbo]

 

Showing your age Crucis?

Seriously can't we create a forum for the oldies, no children allowed, say an age restriction of 40 or so!

 

Yeah, I probably am.  Sue me for being .... over 40 ... and liking this sort of game. 

 

I should say that I recognize a few other people here whose handles I recognize from back then.  Gromniir.  Wanderon.  And some others a bit more vaguely.  There are plenty of people who liked the DnD IE games from back then.  And heck, it wouldn't surprise me if some of those are old enough to have played the even older SSI gold and silver box DnD computer games as well.

 

 

Wow, Wanderon is on these forums? Obi-Wanderon, now that is a name I haven't heard in a very long time...

[Crucis]

 

 

 

 

I find that Warbow is good for exploiting the opportunity to get sneak attacks because its faster. You may have a short window of opportunity to get in a shot especially on potd where you get lots of grazes

This .

People who does not agree are simply low level "theorycrafters" or speculators .

 

 

Or they just prefer to use a different weapon and aren't so bothered about efficiency. I use an Arbalest on my Rogue and don't care about the faster rate of fire because it works well for me.

 

 

Very true.  And I often use a warbow on a ranger or a rogue when others insist that I should be using something like an arquebus or other higher damaging weapon.  I don't play the game to worry about maximum efficiency and maximum DPS.  And these arguments by min-maxing powergamers get really annoying to those who don't subscribe to this attitude.  They were annoying back when BG1/2 were new and are no less annoying today, except perhaps that their arguments are filled with gamer geekspeak that I don't understand, like proc or kiting and so forth.  (Back when BG1/2 were new, I don't recall any of that sort of gamer geek speak.  As I remember it, we actually spoke regular English back then.)

 

 

I don't mind min/max, but when people get insulting to others who don't subscribe to the same gameplay style it's a little sad.

 

Back on topic, I think the "correct" answer would actually be "both".

 

You use the Arbalest vs high DR opponents or for the initial alpha-strike. You'd use the warbow vs. lower DR enemies, or with some levels under your belt, it'd be possible to replace the Arbalest with a Warbow altogether assuming you can set up sneak attacks constantly, use DR debuffs and know where to find the good bows early on.

 

 

I like the idea of using a high alpha weapon for the first strike and then switching to a faster weapon for the rest of the battle for characters like rangers or archers, though if the enemy is tough enough, I could just stick with the high alpha weapon.

 

I also like having my front liners carry a high alpha weapon for a first strike at range before switching to melee weapons.  Slow reloading, high alpha weapons are perfect for that task, since I'm not really intending to take any more than a single shot anyways before switching to melee weapons.

 

I have to say that I like taking the Arms Bearer talent on almost every character because I really like having as many options as reasonably possible.  And only 2 weapons slots seems a little limiting to me.