Barbarians, reach weapons and int

[Daniel Oz]

For a Barbarian using a 2h weapon with reach (pike or qs), how crucial is intellect's AoE modifier for Carnage? Do I really need the extra reach, or will he already be hitting anyone around him with an int of 10 (or 3? - though that should actually malus the reach, I guess?)

[Atchod]

Barbarian's main focus is dealing damage , Intellect = Pure Damage for Barbarian . There is nothing to consider you max it . 

 

Probably one of those case's : Barbarian ???Intellect??? RPG??? what is dis world???

Edited May 3, 2015 by Atchod

[Luckmann]

In terms of min/max, Intellect is a complete no-brained for Barbarians (just like for most other classes, especially all spellcasters). Like Atchod said, you max it.

As far as I know though, reach weapons do not affect the range of Carnage. I may be wrong, though, and I'm sure someone will point it out if I am.

 

But intellectual barbarians is as much of a staple in PoE as the paladins lacking in resolve and the muscle-wizards.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Luckmann

[Crucis]

Barbarian's main focus is dealing damage , Intellect = Pure Damage for Barbarian . There is nothing to consider you max it . 

 

Probably one of those case's : Barbarian ???Intellect??? RPG??? what is dis world???

 

I agree.  This is just plain silly from an RP standpoint.  From a powergaming PoV, it only makes sense to increase a barb's INT.  Just a little more silliness from PoE's stat system.

 

Much as I really like this game, the way they use stats seems really  .... well .... silly.  It seems like the devs wanted to differentiate PoE from DnD in this regard, but ended up just doing something that seems rather counter-intuitive and dumb.

 

Barbs that care about maxing out INT?  Fighters carrying more about PER and RES than Might, CON, and DEX?  Wizards caring about Might at all?  Paladins with no Resolve?

 

Edited May 3, 2015 by Crucis

[gkathellar]

I've seen people make the claim that Int 15 is adequate for a tanky Barbarian, but for a pure offensive type, definitely max it out.

 

But intellectual barbarians is as much of a staple in PoE as the paladins lacking in resolve

 

Hey, paladins need resolve for deflection! After all, ridiculous defenses are the only thing they do well. :/

Edited May 3, 2015 by gkathellar

[Atchod]

Nah silly is the attitude people bring from other games to PoE

You choose BARBARIAN class so he will be BARBARIAN doesnt matter what attributes you give him he is still BARBARIAN all stats are good for every class , they just serve different purpose , Intellectual Barbarian will manage to hit more people and keep his fury longer than lets say dumb barbarian , think like viking's and Ragnaros oh sheet he was intellectual for a savage barbarian cheating his way into paris and such ! . Wizards and might is fine , might is not strength !! read the description of the stat , it can be power of your mind as much as power of your body ! Mighty Wizards are a thing they are MIGHTY so they rule noobs and wreck faces with might of their mind thus casting more powerfull spells than lets say simple Animancer who isnt that much of a mighty hero! 

Edited May 3, 2015 by Atchod

[Daniel Oz]

In terms of min/max, Intellect is a complete no-brained for Barbarians (just like for most other classes, especially all spellcasters). Like Atchod said, you max it.

 

As far as I know though, reach weapons do not affect the range of Carnage. I may be wrong, though, and I'm sure someone will point it out if I am.

 

But intellectual barbarians is as much of a staple in PoE as the paladins lacking in resolve and the muscle-wizards.

It seems like fairly common knowledge that reach weapons DO affect the range of carnage, unless a lot of people are mistaken. That's why I asked. A reach weapon gives you +80% weapon range. I mean, minning int pulls you back just -42%, so technically you still have a better than average Carnage AoE with a pike or quarterstaff, even if you've minned int.

[Crucis]

Nah silly is the attitude people bring from other games to PoE

You choose BARBARIAN class so he will be BARBARIAN doesnt matter what attributes you give him he is still BARBARIAN all stats are good for every class , they just serve different purpose , Intellectual Barbarian will manage to hit more people and keep his fury longer than lets say dumb barbarian , think like viking's and Ragnaros oh sheet he was intellectual for a savage barbarian cheating his way into paris and such ! . Wizards and might is fine , might is not strength !! read the description of the stat , it can be power of your mind as much as power of your body ! Mighty Wizards are a thing they are MIGHTY so they rule noobs and wreck faces with might of their mind thus casting more powerfull spells than lets say simple Animancer who isnt that much of a mighty hero! 

 

Sorry, Atchod.  Not buying what you're selling.

[Daniel Oz]

Ah never mind, I just learned that carnage is centered around the primary target rather than the barbarian, which means that the weapon's reach does not modify its AoE.

[Luckmann]

Don't worry, it's also "common knowledge" that detection is based on Perception or Stealth (or both).

It's based on Mechanics.

PoE is good and PoE is a great many things. Intuitive is not one of them.
 

Nah silly is the attitude people bring from other games to PoE
You choose BARBARIAN class so he will be BARBARIAN doesnt matter what attributes you give him he is still BARBARIAN all stats are good for every class , they just serve different purpose , Intellectual Barbarian will manage to hit more people and keep his fury longer than lets say dumb barbarian , think like viking's and Ragnaros oh sheet he was intellectual for a savage barbarian cheating his way into paris and such ! . Wizards and might is fine , might is not strength !! read the description of the stat , it can be power of your mind as much as power of your body ! Mighty Wizards are a thing they are MIGHTY so they rule noobs and wreck faces with might of their mind thus casting more powerfull spells than lets say simple Animancer who isnt that much of a mighty hero!

The description of Might has nothing to do with it's actual application. You need Might to lift people up. You need Might to push boulders out of the way. You need Might to break down walls. You need Might to threaten people with physical violence.

Might is Strength. There is good argument that Might also has a strong spiritual component to it, and I can see the argument of a healthy mind in a healthy body, and so on; maintaining your physical fitness helps you focus your force of soul and will, and so on. But anyone that says that Might has nothing to do with physical attributes at all will be shot down during the first hour of play, and then blasted with flak cannons for the remainder of the game.

The issue of the non-intuitive, lopsided Attributes and their bonuses is really not so much about High-Intellect Barbarians or Muscle-Wizards being inherently wrong. It really isn't.

 

The problem is that, because the lopsided Attributes are as they are, the min/max is incredibly apparent. If Resolve served a purpose for Wizards (say, +AoE) and the whole set of bonuses were actually balanced, it wouldn't be so apparent that hey, a Barbarian will do really, really, really great with Intellect.

 

Want to do a "classical" wizard? Dump Might, go for Mid-Dexterity, High-Intellect, High-Resolve. But right now, that'd be utter gimp. If things were remotely balanced.

Want to go for a "classical" barbarian? High-Might, High-Constitutiton, Mid-Resolve or Dexterity, Low-Intellect or Dexterity. If things were remotely balanced.

The attribute bonuses in the game are terrible. And Obsidian knows that they are terrible, because they keep moving the CNPC stats away from their roleplaying basis in order to make the CNPC:s better. In 1.03, almost all the CNPC:s were changed from "bad" spreads to "less bad" spreads, even when it compromised who those characters are. Why? Because the Attributes are lopsided and favours min/maxing. In 1.05, Grieving Mother, a perceptive but rather simple-minded Cipher, is going to get her Intellect switched for her Perception.

 

That's 12 Intellect switched with 17 Perception. Why? Because Perception doesn't mean anything to her, mechanically, and is a useless Attribute for the overwhelmingly vast majority of Ciphers (Tanky cipher? Just no.). Does it make sense for Grieving Mother to have a Perception of 12 and an Intellect of 17? Lolno. But they know that 12 Intellect and 17 Perception is a ****ty setup for her, so knowing that the Attributes are crazy lopsided, they prefer to compromise mechanical/roleplay congruity than to actually fix them.

[CriticalFailure]

I never ran any extensive tests, but a barbarian I played seemed to reach more enemies with Carnage when using a greatsword than a one-handed weapon.

[Luckmann]

I never ran any extensive tests, but a barbarian I played seemed to reach more enemies with Carnage when using a greatsword than a one-handed weapon.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd be incredibly surprised - Greatswords aren't even Reach weapons. Only Pikes and Quarterstaffs are, afaik.

[CriticalFailure]

I know, but they're big/two handed, so it could be that. But don't take my word for it; it'd need some proper testing. It could be I missed one of the furthest enemies with the small weapon when I tried it or something.

 

Edit: Just tested it a bit. It's hard to say for sure, but I'm not seeing any noticeable difference, and I'm reaching enemies that are relatively far away with a stiletto, so I guess size doesn't matter after all, in this case.

Edited May 4, 2015 by CriticalFailure

[Crucis]

Don't worry, it's also "common knowledge" that detection is based on Perception or Stealth (or both).

 

 

It's based on Mechanics.

 

 

PoE is good and PoE is a great many things. Intuitive is not one of them.

 

Nah silly is the attitude people bring from other games to PoE

You choose BARBARIAN class so he will be BARBARIAN doesnt matter what attributes you give him he is still BARBARIAN all stats are good for every class , they just serve different purpose , Intellectual Barbarian will manage to hit more people and keep his fury longer than lets say dumb barbarian , think like viking's and Ragnaros oh sheet he was intellectual for a savage barbarian cheating his way into paris and such ! . Wizards and might is fine , might is not strength !! read the description of the stat , it can be power of your mind as much as power of your body ! Mighty Wizards are a thing they are MIGHTY so they rule noobs and wreck faces with might of their mind thus casting more powerfull spells than lets say simple Animancer who isnt that much of a mighty hero!

The description of Might has nothing to do with it's actual application. You need Might to lift people up. You need Might to push boulders out of the way. You need Might to break down walls. You need Might to threaten people with physical violence.

 

Might is Strength. There is good argument that Might also has a strong spiritual component to it, and I can see the argument of a healthy mind in a healthy body, and so on; maintaining your physical fitness helps you focus your force of soul and will, and so on. But anyone that says that Might has nothing to do with physical attributes at all will be shot down during the first hour of play, and then blasted with flak cannons for the remainder of the game.

 

The issue of the non-intuitive, lopsided Attributes and their bonuses is really not so much about High-Intellect Barbarians or Muscle-Wizards being inherently wrong. It really isn't.

 

The problem is that, because the lopsided Attributes are as they are, the min/max is incredibly apparent. If Resolve served a purpose for Wizards (say, +AoE) and the whole set of bonuses were actually balanced, it wouldn't be so apparent that hey, a Barbarian will do really, really, really great with Intellect.

 

Want to do a "classical" wizard? Dump Might, go for Mid-Dexterity, High-Intellect, High-Resolve. But right now, that'd be utter gimp. If things were remotely balanced.

 

Want to go for a "classical" barbarian? High-Might, High-Constitutiton, Mid-Resolve or Dexterity, Low-Intellect or Dexterity. If things were remotely balanced.

 

The attribute bonuses in the game are terrible. And Obsidian knows that they are terrible, because they keep moving the CNPC stats away from their roleplaying basis in order to make the CNPC:s better. In 1.03, almost all the CNPC:s were changed from "bad" spreads to "less bad" spreads, even when it compromised who those characters are. Why? Because the Attributes are lopsided and favours min/maxing. In 1.05, Grieving Mother, a perceptive but rather simple-minded Cipher, is going to get her Intellect switched for her Perception.

 

That's 12 Intellect switched with 17 Perception. Why? Because Perception doesn't mean anything to her, mechanically, and is a useless Attribute for the overwhelmingly vast majority of Ciphers (Tanky cipher? Just no.). Does it make sense for Grieving Mother to have a Perception of 12 and an Intellect of 17? Lolno. But they know that 12 Intellect and 17 Perception is a ****ty setup for her, so knowing that the Attributes are crazy lopsided, they prefer to compromise mechanical/roleplay congruity than to actually fix them.

 

 

Luckmann, I disagree with your highlighted post, and yet agree with all the rest.

 

I'd much rather have a "traditional" barbarian whose general stat mix was high Strength, good CON, probably good DEX, probably good Resolve, and low INT. 

 

I don't like the idea that the strength/power of a spellcaster's destructive or healing spells is linked to Might.  I think that a mental stat like Resolve would be better for this purpose, if one was even going to have a stat that modified the power of spells at all. 

 

I could possibly see Wizards having the power of their spells linked to INT, but only wizards.  Or if you wanted to get really cute, link it to Lore with the understanding that wizardry is a learned thing and the more learned you are, the more powerful you are.  Or another way to do it could be to link Wizard's power to INT, but any # of spells per level bonuses to Lore on that same theory that Wizardry is a learned thing and that Lore is a measure of education, and in a wizard's case, the measure of his education in the arcane arts.  Of course, this could all get a little twisty and complex.

 

I agree with your comments on Grieving Mother.  A high INT really doesn't seem right for her from a character perspective.  I think that this is yet another reflection of how tying spellcasting destructive/healing power to Might or its duration and AoE to INT (ditto for non-spellcaster special abilities with time and AoE's) is a flawed concept.  IMO it creates characters who seem very much out of character or out of sync with traditional stereotypes of certain classes.  But the thing is that I'm not entirely sure that tying those things to any of the other stats would avoid similar out of character or out of sync with stereotype situations.  

 

 

 

Here's one other option that comes to mind.  What if those things were tied to your character's level?  That is, you'd get X% per character level to any spell or abilities destructive or healing power, Y% to its area of effect, and Z% to its duration.  This way, as your character grew in experience (as reflected by his character level), his spells or abilities would become more potent.  And this way, you don't end up with PC's and NPC's whose stats seem out of sync with their character or the stereotype of their class. 

 

 

Of course, one could argue that this way of doing it doesn't allow for any differentiation between characters of the same class.  However, I'd counter that by saying that, at least with min-maxing powergamers, there's not that much differentiation anyways since they're just maxing out the important classes for the build.  Having said that (just had an idea as I was typing), one way to create the possibility of some differentiation could be to have a talent whose purpose was to give the character a boost in power similar to being +1 or +2 levels higher than their actual class level.  This would only be a boost to their existing spells or abilities/talents that have spell like effects, and not a real level up across the board.  But it would be one possible way to create the potential for differentiation.  Or you could split them out into 2 different talents, one for destructive/healing power and the other one for duration and size of AoE.

 

 

Anyways, that's all for now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Luckmann]

[...]

 

I'd much rather have a "traditional" barbarian whose general stat mix was high Strength, good CON, probably good DEX, probably good Resolve, and low INT. 

 

[...]

I'd rather have that too, than what we have now, but ultimately I'd like for all Attributes to be good for every class. It's the fact that the non-intuitive builds are also the no-brainer builds that rubs me the wrong way.

 

I don't think there's a valid reason as to why you shouldn't be able to build a good muscle-wizard or a smart barbarian (or a Fighter, for that matter), but the more obvious defaults should absolutely take precedence if a choice is really necessary.

 

I just don't think that it is. We can have both.

 

We can have both the raging low-intellect high-might/constitution aumauan berzerker and the low-might high-perception/dexterity orlan kneestabber. Or the physically fit elven sorcerer and the brittle-boned human lorekeeper. We can have both the resolute kind wayfarer and the intellectual darcozzi paladini.

 

Just.. not in PoE, apparently, for some reason.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Luckmann

[MadDemiurg]

Theoretically, INT can influence the maximum complexity of the moves/spells used. Like allowing more complex combos etc. That would make it both a universally interesting stat and reasonable from RP standpoint. The way PoE is designed I don't see an easy fix however.

 

As for OP's question, I don't think weapon type influences carnage aoe at all. INT obviously does.

Edited May 4, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Akimbo]

Seems to be a lot of people who confuse PoE with DnD still.

[CriticalFailure]

Probably about the same amount as those pretending they're completely different.

 

Six attributes, three physical and three mental, with the same application in RP (even though a couple of them have a different name), which range from 3 to 18... Yeah, so not DnD.

[Crucis]

Seems to be a lot of people who confuse PoE with DnD still.

 

It's not about confusing the two.  It's about believing that some of the design choices (relative to attributes) seemingly made for the sake of differentiating PoE from DnD were and are wrong.

[Akimbo]

 

Seems to be a lot of people who confuse PoE with DnD still.

 

It's not about confusing the two.  It's about believing that some of the design choices (relative to attributes) seemingly made for the sake of differentiating PoE from DnD were and are wrong.

 

 

I don't disagree entirely. I was thinking more about the stereotypes that seem to be thought of here on the forums. Such as people disputing that Barbarians shouldn't have high Intellect, because they're Barbarians.

 

Also, people refer to might purely as a Physical trait, whereas might can refer to intellect just as readily as physical might. Not sure what the actual description for might is in-game, but a lot of opinions seem to be based on the old DnD style tropes.

 

PoE may not have got attributes entirely right, and they're clearly based on DnD foundations, but I appreciate them more than I do DnD's system.

[Crucis]

 

 

Seems to be a lot of people who confuse PoE with DnD still.

 

It's not about confusing the two.  It's about believing that some of the design choices (relative to attributes) seemingly made for the sake of differentiating PoE from DnD were and are wrong.

 

 

I don't disagree entirely. I was thinking more about the stereotypes that seem to be thought of here on the forums. Such as people disputing that Barbarians shouldn't have high Intellect, because they're Barbarians.

 

Also, people refer to might purely as a Physical trait, whereas might can refer to intellect just as readily as physical might. Not sure what the actual description for might is in-game, but a lot of opinions seem to be based on the old DnD style tropes.

 

PoE may not have got attributes entirely right, and they're clearly based on DnD foundations, but I appreciate them more than I do DnD's system.

 

 

The problem isn't there couldn't be the occasional intelligent barbarian.  The problem is that the way the attributes are constructed, INT becomes a near must-max-out stat for barbarians, due to its affect on certain barbarian abilities.  Frankly, I don't see intelligence as a critical attribute to your average barbarian.  Your average barbarian is all about physical stats that enhance combat, and perhaps things like perception and resolve (in a theoretical way, not a managing stats way).  The occasional intelligent barb is more likely to be one who becomes a successful leader of the clan, because he's smart enough to understand how to run things effectively.

 

As for Might as a physical trait vs a how it's viewed in PoE, I think that this idea of Might as something other than raw physical strength is a pantload of fecal matter. 

 

As for your final sentence, I guess that I like the DnD's system a little better than the PoE one.  Strength/Might, Con, and Dex should be the foundation for physical combatant classes.  And I find it galling how CON has been so reduced as an important attribute for those physical combatants.

 

I will say that a decent enough case can be made that PER/INT/RES is a better combo than INT, WIS, and CHA, but only if those PoE attributes were used in a more intelligent manner.  For example, rather than PER and RES being used to determine DEFL, it seems to me that DEX and PER are more appropriate.  I don't really see how RES should have anything to do with it.  DEX should contribute since a highly dextrous character will be able to nimbly avoid blows, while a very perceptive character will be able to read his opponents and be able to anticipate those incoming blows to be able to avoid them that way.  And maybe RES should be an important stat for some spellcasters since it'd seem like a spellcaster like a priest with a high RES value would have great strength of purpose which would make them more potent than those who didn't have such a high level of resolve or strength of purpose.

 

 

I could go on and on, but I think that I've said enough for now.  Interesting discussion though. 

[Kaigen42]

Attributes ala D&D require such a huge level of abstraction to begin with that I don't think it's worth worrying about. Particularly if your main objection is that they violate your closely held stereotypes.

[CriticalFailure]

The average barbarian is neither dumb or smart, he is... of average intelligence, just like any other non-barbarian, average person. The point is that being a genius, while is always helpful, shouldn't be one of the main requirements of his profession.

 

Might is compared with Strength because that's how the game interprets it, regardless of what the description says. As others have pointed out, it's used in dialogues to raise people off their feet, to push rocks, break walls, etc. That's raw physical power, plain and simple, and I don't recall any instance where Might can be used in a different way.

Edited May 4, 2015 by CriticalFailure

[Taril]

 

Also, people refer to might purely as a Physical trait, whereas might can refer to intellect just as readily as physical might. Not sure what the actual description for might is in-game, but a lot of opinions seem to be based on the old DnD style tropes

 

 

 

Well the thing is, in-game the dialogue and interactive story sections use the stats very specifically - Might is almost always picking someone off their feet, smashing down a wall (That would otherwise take fatigue worthy amounts of effort to chisel away) or having an imposing presence on someone. Much how Intellect is almost always having lots of knowledge about specific things (To the point where talking to the bandit leader in the initial caravan site, there's an option to talk about their god that's usable with either Lore or Intellect scores)

 

If these options varied more often - Such as Might options that centred around mental prowess (I.E. Might for Wizards or other spellcasters), Intellect options that centred around practical ability (Such as a Barbarian's skill with weaponry) then people wouldn't fall victim to these DnD ideals of what stats "Should be" for various classes from a roleplaying perspective.

 

I mean, you can justify plenty of reasoning for any of the stats on any class and have it still fit with roleplaying, but with how interactions in-game work you'll always get the DnD ideology reinforced, whether you like it or not.