Two Major Combat Issues that Need to be Addressed

[Blovski]

 

 

I see alot of nerfs in upcoming patch. I think nerfs are not the correct way in balancing a battle. A smart AI is the resolution for the poor combat difficulty.

 

These kind of posts always dazzle me. I've got my butt handed to me on PotD on several different occasions. Be it in a ambush fight at Caed Nua where a group of virthaks (verthaks? the scarecrow-like dudes from the Endless Dungeon) start the fight by paralyzing my whole group before dominating two to three of my characters, or against some of the bounty groups which have so many dudes that they swarm my two tanks and then go straight for my back line throwing around disables and nukes as if they were confetti. Or the fight at the top level of the lighthouse where you just cannot tank the mobs properly and have to rely on buffs/heals/disables to let your squishies survive the onslaught.

 

Maybe it's just me, but on PotD (and even on Hard) the game offers plenty of challenging encounters where I had to think about my formation, setup and some buffs/debuffs/disables to keep the enemies from tearing through my softer party members.

 

Or maybe I just don't remember every fight that I eventually managed to win after five reloads as 'too easy'

 

 

I agree completely. I've rerolled countless times in PotD mode and it's always an engaging combat experience, requiring forethought and finesse. Enemy AI may not be realistic (especially for sentient opponents), but the battles are always a reasonable challenge. 

 

The people who show up to complain about difficulty are just egomaniacs advertising their epeens. They really don't deserve your attention.

 

I would like the game to be hard for the right reasons, tbh. Running The Endless Paths at lowish levels in my current PotD playthrough has been satisfying, partly because a lot of the encounters are designed such as to represent a real, mildly complex challenge to your party. If the AI was even just a little bit smarter, playing a tank/spank party on POTD would involve more tactics and positioning, and playing some other approach would be more gratifying by contrast.

[Eos]

 

 

I see alot of nerfs in upcoming patch. I think nerfs are not the correct way in balancing a battle. A smart AI is the resolution for the poor combat difficulty.

 

These kind of posts always dazzle me. I've got my butt handed to me on PotD on several different occasions. Be it in a ambush fight at Caed Nua where a group of virthaks (verthaks? the scarecrow-like dudes from the Endless Dungeon) start the fight by paralyzing my whole group before dominating two to three of my characters, or against some of the bounty groups which have so many dudes that they swarm my two tanks and then go straight for my back line throwing around disables and nukes as if they were confetti. Or the fight at the top level of the lighthouse where you just cannot tank the mobs properly and have to rely on buffs/heals/disables to let your squishies survive the onslaught.

 

Maybe it's just me, but on PotD (and even on Hard) the game offers plenty of challenging encounters where I had to think about my formation, setup and some buffs/debuffs/disables to keep the enemies from tearing through my softer party members.

 

Or maybe I just don't remember every fight that I eventually managed to win after five reloads as 'too easy'

 

 

100% agree. The bounties and some Od Nua levels are extremely tough.

I think the problem most people have with PotD is the critical path... which I agree is pretty easy in comparison.

 

 

This, to me, seems to be the crucial point: how do you design a game to be challenging at all times, yet give the player the freedom to tackle content in his desired order. To me the game offered plenty challenges on PotD on several different occasions. Mainly when I did Raedric's Keep at level 3, when I did the Temple of Eothas right when I got to Gilded Vale, when I did the top floor of the Lighthouse soon after I arrived in Defiance Bay, when I went down as far as I could in the Endless Pat at level 8, etc. pp. Of course you can trivialize almost all of the encounters by stacking the odds beforehand, i.e. by out-levelling them, by abusing certain game mechanics (Cipher perma disable, choke points), etc. But that's completely up to you.

 

If you want challenging game play (for the fun of it, not to flex your epeen online afterwards) PoE offers plenty of fights in this department. I was very impressed by PoE's rule set and combat mechanics when I first played it, because it offers challenging fights at almost every stage of the game. Does it also give you the ability to cheese them/avoid them? Yes. Does that mean that the combat is too easy? No. Just that you decided to go the easy-cheesy route.

 

Besides: how does a game look like that is constantly challenging when the player is at the same time constantly adapting to and learning from said challenges? To me, challenge in a fixed game environment (as it is the case with a single player game) means to have to come up with a smart strategy to turn unbeatable/tough encounters into manageable/easy encounters. In overcoming this initial obstacle lies the challenge. Not in constantly getting my teeth kicked in because the AI/the game repeatedly changes the rules and thus forces me to adapt over and over and over again without ever reaching the point where I get to apply my adapted strategies and reap the rewards of them.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Eos

[Khalid the bear]

1) pathfinding. if yoou take care to look, you can often see enemies stuck in place instead of going around of their alies/tree, or twitching back-forward (sometimes your partimembers wil behave in the same way)
twitching is sometimes observable even outside of combat

2) AI-enemieas decisions who to target, what spells to cast, how to move/engage/disengage is pratty simple/empty right now

[constantine]

Another area AI lacks is how they treat confused/charmed/dominated allies. It's bad that they target them instantly.

 

However encounters with monsters that charm are still quite challenging.

 

 

It's also bad that our party land disengagement attacks on their charmed allies !

Edited May 4, 2015 by constantine

[Namutree]

Better ai would do very little to improve the combat. PoE's single biggest flaw is that there are no real hard counters, weaknesses, or resistances and thus a good tactic can work in every single fight in the game. This is what must be addressed in the expansion. More so than any other thing. There needs to be at least a few enemy encounters in the game where my standard tactic isn't enough to win.

[scrotiemcb]

Better ai would do very little to improve the combat. PoE's single biggest flaw is that there are no real hard counters, weaknesses, or resistances and thus a good tactic can work in every single fight in the game...

 

There needs to be at least a few enemy encounters in the game where my standard tactic isn't enough to win.

I file "better AI" under "soft counters." Because AI is what keeps static tanking so dominant.

 

But the core of your idea is "counters are good," and that is correct. I am a little hesitant to use the word "hard," but let's just say it should be clear that certain tactics which normally work become bad ideas.

[constantine]

What do you mean by soft counters ?

 

As I see things, it's good if some common mobs can counter your actions: you charm one of theirs,they respond by dominating them (like spores do). You paralyze someone, they free him.

 

 

I'd like to see unique monsters or some bosses possess immunities. That or, when they are, say, stunned or paralyzed, they can activate a unique ability that counters it, maybe applying a penalty on them also. Some boss battles really need that.

 

 

I wonder if there's any possibility we see that kind of gameplay changes in this game, or maybe applied with the expansion, or if discussions aim to shape up rules for PoE2.

[scrotiemcb]

A hard counter is an outright immunity.

 

A soft counter is a strong defense which falls short of an immunity. For example, "+40 to Defense versus Blind" and "40 DR vs Burn" are soft counters. Enemies responding to your status with their status would also fall under soft counters.

 

Although I believe hard counters should be used in rare circumstances, in general I believe soft counters are a better design philosophy.

Edited May 5, 2015 by scrotiemcb

[constantine]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

[Psychevore]

Better ai would do very little to improve the combat. PoE's single biggest flaw is that there are no real hard counters, weaknesses, or resistances and thus a good tactic can work in every single fight in the game. This is what must be addressed in the expansion. More so than any other thing. There needs to be at least a few enemy encounters in the game where my standard tactic isn't enough to win.

You honestly think the game wouldn't become better if the AI didn't circle jerk the very first person they run into?

 

If they just realised there's some people made of glass just a few meters further, that'd make things a lot harder already. Now it's just:

 

a) get tank in position.

b) kill everything.

 

Also, way more encounters where enemies come from multiple directions, and not just from the front, preferably in waves. (1st wave 1st casualty, 2nd wave comes from behind. 2nd wave 1st casualty, 3rd wave comes from the front-now behind).

 

These two things would make the game a hella lot harder. No need for hard counters and immunities.

[kaiki]

Although I believe hard counters should be used in rare circumstances, in general I believe soft counters are a better design philosophy.

 

Agreed. I don't want PoE games to turn into Pathfinder/DnD runs where I need three sets of the same weapons -just in case-. Much rather change what abilities I use during the encounter & tactics in order to beat mobs.

[Namutree]

 

Better ai would do very little to improve the combat. PoE's single biggest flaw is that there are no real hard counters, weaknesses, or resistances and thus a good tactic can work in every single fight in the game. This is what must be addressed in the expansion. More so than any other thing. There needs to be at least a few enemy encounters in the game where my standard tactic isn't enough to win.

You honestly think the game wouldn't become better if the AI didn't circle jerk the very first person they run into?

 

If they just realised there's some people made of glass just a few meters further, that'd make things a lot harder already. Now it's just:

 

a) get tank in position.

b) kill everything.

 

You're overestimating how much harder that would make things. Not to mention it would do nothing to fix the issue that the same tactic works on every fight. Sure, what that tactic is might be slightly adjusted, but it wouldn't have to change when adjusted a single time to deal with the better ai. Just use the same plan over and over and over. We need heavy resistances and weaknesses.

[Zwiebelchen]

 

Better ai would do very little to improve the combat. PoE's single biggest flaw is that there are no real hard counters, weaknesses, or resistances and thus a good tactic can work in every single fight in the game. This is what must be addressed in the expansion. More so than any other thing. There needs to be at least a few enemy encounters in the game where my standard tactic isn't enough to win.

You honestly think the game wouldn't become better if the AI didn't circle jerk the very first person they run into?

 

If they just realised there's some people made of glass just a few meters further, that'd make things a lot harder already. Now it's just:

 

a) get tank in position.

b) kill everything.

 

Let me guess: you haven't played PotD, right?

[constantine]

Better AI, enemy tactics is of paramount importance, immunities/soft counters should only be implemented to some bosses/unique monsters. Nothing worse than an easy boss fight when the anticipation is high.

 

(not that boss fights in PoE are easy-some are though, but they sure can become more challenging)

 

 

On another note, now that Ciphers are nerfed, combat is gonna get tougher anyway

Edited May 5, 2015 by constantine