Why must you oppose Raedric VII?

[fgalkin]

And then you go stab Kolsc in the face in a small shack in the woods in an area you've already been.

 

The "Side with Raedric"-option seems very uninspiring, and even locks you out of a lot of Raedric's Keep content. It's weird.

 

And then you go stab Kolsc in the face in a small shack in the woods in an area you've already been.

 

The "Side with Raedric"-option seems very uninspiring, and even locks you out of a lot of Raedric's Keep content. It's weird.

Crazy **** lord turns out to be an **** and screws you over? Shock! Horror! 

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

[Luckmann]

 

And then you go stab Kolsc in the face in a small shack in the woods in an area you've already been.

 

The "Side with Raedric"-option seems very uninspiring, and even locks you out of a lot of Raedric's Keep content. It's weird.

 

And then you go stab Kolsc in the face in a small shack in the woods in an area you've already been.

 

The "Side with Raedric"-option seems very uninspiring, and even locks you out of a lot of Raedric's Keep content. It's weird.

Crazy **** lord turns out to be an **** and screws you over? Shock! Horror! 

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

 

But that's.. what? No. How the hell did you come to that conclusion based on what I said? It's not Raedric that screws you over, it's how the quest functions.

[fgalkin]

Not being able to reap the rewards fully after siding with Raedric? Well, of course upstaging the existing order would be more profitable, than upholding it. There is no incentive for Raedric to reward you, and no reason for him to open those areas to you? 

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

[Luckmann]

Not being able to reap the rewards fully after siding with Raedric? Well, of course upstaging the existing order would be more profitable, than upholding it. There is no incentive for Raedric to reward you, and no reason for him to open those areas to you? 

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

No, you're still not getting it. It's not about rewards or profitability, or that Raedric doesn't reward you - he does, although I suspect you can get that Greatsword by just stabbing him in the face anyway.

 

It's that the option is uninspiring and feels unfinished. You're locked out of content, in that you can't talk to several NPC:s in Raedric's Hold in a meaningful way. It has nothing to do with the narrative aspect of siding with Raedric.

 

The areas are open. Raedric doesn't need to open them for you, nor does he restrict your access to them. But when you go there, the areas are devoid of meaningful content; you cannot talk to either Osrya or Nedmar, and Giacco is suddenly hostile for no sensible reason, even when you let him out. The option to side with Raedric seems to be an unfinished last-minute-job and the default assumption was obviously that you were going to oppose him, whether that makes sense to you or not.

[wolfsrain]

Disliked both characters (Kolsc and Raedric). The old advisor was okay, though a bit on the fanatical side, the animancer was a psychopath, so you can guess which characters were still alive after my rampage.

[Luckmann]

Disliked both characters (Kolsc and Raedric). The old advisor was okay, though a bit on the fanatical side, the animancer was a psychopath, so you can guess which characters were still alive after my rampage.

 

I wouldn't know, because as I pointed out, I couldn't even talk with them. Which is just ridiculously terrible quest design.

[abaris]

I played it both ways. Hearing Raedric out and killing Kolsc, killing Raedric and helping Kolsc. Maybe I take the third option next time and do them both in, since I dislike both anyway.

[Nakia]

The way I see it is that Raedric is a lunatic fanatic who will never stop his oppressive and nasty ways. 

 The ending you get for Gilded Vale if you side with him I believe proves me right.  

Edited May 13, 2015 by Nakia

[Luckmann]

 

The way I see it is that Raedric is a lunatic fanatic who will never stop his oppressive and nasty ways. 

 The ending you get for Gilded Vale if you side with him I believe proves me right.  

 

 

It's actually kinda annoying (and sad) that most choices are so blatantly obvious. It would've been interesting if Raedric VII turned out to be the better choice if you actually fixed the whole crisis and returned the souls. Or killed himself in grief over having done so many in over something that changed nothing. Or actually was praised as having solved the crisis and stopped being a lunatic about the whole thing.

 

And if Kolsc turned out to be a self-indulgent noble splerglord that couldn't rule effectively to save his life.

[Nakia]

 

 

The way I see it is that Raedric is a lunatic fanatic who will never stop his oppressive and nasty ways. 

 The ending you get for Gilded Vale if you side with him I believe proves me right.  

 

 

It's actually kinda annoying (and sad) that most choices are so blatantly obvious. It would've been interesting if Raedric VII turned out to be the better choice if you actually fixed the whole crisis and returned the souls. Or killed himself in grief over having done so many in over something that changed nothing. Or actually was praised as having solved the crisis and stopped being a lunatic about the whole thing.

 

And if Kolsc turned out to be a self-indulgent noble splerglord that couldn't rule effectively to save his life.

 

I am inclined to agree with you.  The first time through I almost sided with him then realized he had just killed his wife.  My character was a nice guy and we just couldn't stomach that action.  Gilded Vale deserves a better ruler than either one of those men.

[wolfsrain]

I took the side entrance to the castle. I could have avoided killing everyone and everything. But after i gathered enough information, including the discovery of the wife's body, i decided to rampage, killing everyone, including Kolsc. Kolsc is the smaller evil, but i dislike being manipulated and the dude was only jealous because he wasn't the one staying on that throne. Politics as usual...

[Luckmann]

 

 

 

The way I see it is that Raedric is a lunatic fanatic who will never stop his oppressive and nasty ways. 

 The ending you get for Gilded Vale if you side with him I believe proves me right.  [/size]

 

 

It's actually kinda annoying (and sad) that most choices are so blatantly obvious. It would've been interesting if Raedric VII turned out to be the better choice if you actually fixed the whole crisis and returned the souls. Or killed himself in grief over having done so many in over something that changed nothing. Or actually was praised as having solved the crisis and stopped being a lunatic about the whole thing.

 

And if Kolsc turned out to be a self-indulgent noble splerglord that couldn't rule effectively to save his life.

 

I am inclined to agree with you.  The first time through I almost sided with him then realized he had just killed his wife.  My character was a nice guy and we just couldn't stomach that action.  Gilded Vale deserves a better ruler than either one of those men.

 

 

I would've been more worried if he hadn't killed his wife. There's an (a good) argument that Raedric VII is draconian or even crazy, but the fact that he doesn't treat people differently or engage in nepotism makes me feel that he's at least not corrupt. And I think it would've been interesting to take that approach;

• Raedric VII is the legitimate heir, a draconian and religiously misguided but consistent ruler that genuinely believes that what he does is necessary for the good of all, to the point where he will even sacrifice his own wife for the well-being of his people and his belief in the rule of law. Stoic, Rational, Honest, Cruel. Lawful Neutral, Lawful Evil.

   

• Kolsc is an illegitimate upstart, a generally benevolent but corrupt ruler that isn't alien to whims of fancy, nepotism, and arbitrary rulings based on his idea of what is right or wrong. No-one in his family would ever be punished for breaking the law, but he's also not hanging people due to religious hangups. Benevolent, Passionate, Deceptive, Aggressive. Neutral Good/Chaotic Neutral.

I think that would've been more interesting, tbqh. And if you kill both of them, the region should fall into years of varying degrees of anarchy, with brigands on the roads but the towns better off under their own out-of-necessity rule, maybe the birth of a mayoral bourgeois in the region, in time, maybe.

 

I took the side entrance to the castle. I could have avoided killing everyone and everything. But after i gathered enough information, including the discovery of the wife's body, i decided to rampage, killing everyone, including Kolsc. Kolsc is the smaller evil, but i dislike being manipulated and the dude was only jealous because he wasn't the one staying on that throne. Politics as usual...

The fact that Kolsc mislead me was key in cementing my Bleak Walker's decision to kill him instead of Raedric. The fact that he had acted lawfully and killed his wife, thus showing that he's a strong and just ruler that does not shirk responsibilities, willing to take matters into his own hands and carry out even the sentences we do not like himself, only cemented that decision.

 

Had I been allowed to figure out what was going on in the basement of the castle or been allowed to talk to Nedmar, my Bleak Walker would probably have reconsidered that decision and decided to murdersplurge Raedric VII with a sharp object, but.. yeah, no such option. Which, again, sucks monkey-ass.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Luckmann

[mystang89]

I think next play through I'll just kill them both. I'll never side with Raedric and I'm not a huge fan of the other soooo

[bonarbill]

I just ignored the quest all together.  I just don't see any reason why an outsider should bother helping this place at all.

[Nakia]

I just ignored the quest all together.  I just don't see any reason why an outsider should bother helping this place at all.

I think you have a good point there.

[Luckmann]

I just ignored the quest all together.  I just don't see any reason why an outsider should bother helping this place at all.

 

That's actually a point I really like. There are numerous times in the game where the game actually forces quests upon you, even if you practically decline them, but I can see a lot of characters actually not caring that much for it. I'm very much a help-others-to-help-themselves kind of person, myself, and while I wouldn't agree with Raedric VII by any stretch of the imagination, and likely not be closely as lauding of his consistency and strength of character in practice, I would have a hard time, especially as a foreigner, to excuse coming to the vale and immediately start interfering with their social and political affairs, in a political and legal framework I know absolutely nothing about, let alone carrying out a frontal assault on the keep or an actual assassination of a local ruler, especially not in favour of someone I've barely met and know practically nothing about (Kolsc).

 

So some alternate ways to deal with this entirely without having to carry out the quest A-to-B (with an alternate C) would be nice. Or an option to simply drop it, let's say Kolsc asks you to go there, you tell him no, and the quest never starts, or you tell him you'll visit Raedric's Hold, you get there, the guards stop you, and you actually just go "Alright. Fine." and go back to Kolsc and tell him nope, not gonna do this, and the quest stops.

 

And then later, in Act 3 or so, if you have a really good Reputation with Gilded Vale, Kolsc shows up to kill you for supporting Raedric. If you have a terrible reputation with Gilded Vale, Raedric shows up to kill you for attacking or hurting his lands. Or something.

[Faerunner]

Main reason my first character got involved was because she'd become fond of Calisca (and felt guilty about her death) and so wanted to help her sister. When the locals' comments made it clear that no matter what my character did to try to help her, there's no way to predict or prevent her having a hollowborn and she would be screwed if she had one thanks to Raedric's law, my character decided the law had to change. Since Raedric wasn't about to change his mind, Raedric had to go. That simple.

 

Normally I'd be all for the argument that it isn't the place of some foreigner to wander into a village and immediately start interfering with their social and political affairs, since the political and legal framework is one we know nothing about; but the game makes it very quickly clear that their social and political affairs are not fine as they are. Not enough that the local population is on the verge of collapse thanks to so many hollowborn, the local lord somehow manages to make it worse by blaming and terrorizing the mothers, exiling and killing them for having hollowborn, which they can't help and don't want anyway (and there's no proof at the time that their wombs are to blame, so why punish them for something when you don't even know if they're guilty?), making them sick and desperate with fear and making the locals even more anxious than before. When there's a fire, Raedric, you don't pour fuel on it. That's why you got kicked off fire duty.

 

Also, you don't technically have to oppose Raedric. If memory serves, you can take his side after you confront him or just don't follow through with the quest. That simple.

[Luckmann]

Main reason my first character got involved was because she'd become fond of Calisca (and felt guilty about her death) and so wanted to help her sister. When the locals' comments made it clear that no matter what my character did to try to help her, there's no way to predict or prevent her having a hollowborn and she would be screwed if she had one thanks to Raedric's law, my character decided the law had to change. Since Raedric wasn't about to change his mind, Raedric had to go. That simple.

That's actually a fair argument for a character's decision. My bleak walker tried to help her, but ultimately have no clue whether what Raedric is doing is going to help or not, and didn't empathize enough with Calisca's sister on a level where it'd warrant opposing Raedric - after all, opposing him could make matters worse anyway, and Calisca's sister might get a healthy child; and if she doesn't, who's to say that she isn't cursed, or not suffering from a disease that causes the hollowborn?

 

Normally I'd be all for the argument that it isn't the place of some foreigner to wander into a village and immediately start interfering with their social and political affairs, since the political and legal framework is one we know nothing about; but the game makes it very quickly clear that their social and political affairs are not fine as they are.

If they were fine as they are, the interference/non-interference discussion would be meaningless and unnecessary. If we can't refrain from interfering when things aren't as we want them to be, when are we supposed to not interfere? The idea of letting people solve their own problems really stems from the fact that things are more complicated than we can usually understand, and that changing things for the "better" (from our point of view) might actually make things worse. There's plenty of examples in real life history of interference in local affairs and the business of other people's that have turned out absolutely terrible.

 

Also, there's no guarantee Kolsc won't screw up even worse. Yes, on an objective level, I realize that Raedric VII is sorta crazy, of course I do, and my arguments here shouldn't be taken as an adamant real-life position - things are often too complicated for that - but from the perspective we're offered in the game, at that point, it's entirely reasonable to think that this is not your place to interfere, and I'd love it if the epilogue was a bit more.. ambiguous or unexpected. It is too.. simplistic-enforced-21st-century-morality to have two objective good vs. evil, and I think it's shallow roleplaying writing to make the options so obviously distinct.

 

Not enough that the local population is on the verge of collapse thanks to so many hollowborn, the local lord somehow manages to make it worse by blaming and terrorizing the mothers, exiling and killing them for having hollowborn, which they can't help and don't want anyway (and there's no proof at the time that their wombs are to blame, so why punish them for something when you don't even know if they're guilty?), making them sick and desperate with fear and making the locals even more anxious than before. When there's a fire, Raedric, you don't pour fuel on it. That's why you got kicked off fire duty.

This is an equally good argument to bring to Raedric, really, but in situations like this, I can see people operating on a guilty-until-proven-innocent basis. Raedric is grasping at straws, sure, but he might feel compelled to do something, and from an in-character perspective, theres's no evidence that it's not helping. Also, I'm not convinced that he thinks that it has anything to do with their wombs. I'm actually pretty sure that the reason they are punished is because they bear hollowborn, and Raedric is convinced that it's a divine punishment for worshipping Eothas. For example, his wife was killed not for bearing hollowborn, but for worshipping Eothas, which, for all we know, could be the cause of her bearing hollowborn to begin with.

 

Also, you don't technically have to oppose Raedric. If memory serves, you can take his side after you confront him or just don't follow through with the quest. That simple.

 

Read the OP. You have to oppose Raedric before you even get that option; you have to oppose him and then change your mind. That's the whole issue, really.

 

Like "Well, alright, I'm going to do a 360 and moonwalk out of the door now because of flimsy reasons, forget about the whole killing you part".

Edited May 14, 2015 by Luckmann

[FlintlockJazz]

"Kolsc didn't send me does make sense.  Just because he asks you to go (and mechanically unlocks the area) doesn't mean he 'sent you'.  He only sends you if you are there to do what he asks, if you are not then but instead gone to talk to him like you wanted then he has not sent you, as you are not there for him.  If you came along and asked me to kill someone because they are a big doody head, and I then go to talk to him to get his side then you have not sent me.  If you asked me to go speak with him and I do so because you asked then you did send me because I am there on your behalf.

 

I just ignored the quest all together.  I just don't see any reason why an outsider should bother helping this place at all.

 

Same here on my first playthrough, it just seemed like a total cluster**** situation that my character didn't want to get in on.  Subsequent characters will though.

[Lychnidos]

 

The way I see it is that Raedric is a lunatic fanatic who will never stop his oppressive and nasty ways. 

 The ending you get for Gilded Vale if you side with him I believe proves me right.  

 

 

He actually stops being excessively authoritative if you side with him. Gilded Vale's fate under him may actually be better than if you side with Kolsc.

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Pillars_of_Eternity_endings#4._Gilded_Vale_remains_under_Raedric.27s_rule

[Nakia]

 

 

The way I see it is that Raedric is a lunatic fanatic who will never stop his oppressive and nasty ways. 

 The ending you get for Gilded Vale if you side with him I believe proves me right.  

 

 

He actually stops being excessively authoritative if you side with him. Gilded Vale's fate under him may actually be better than if you side with Kolsc.

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Pillars_of_Eternity_endings#4._Gilded_Vale_remains_under_Raedric.27s_rule

 

True but never the  less I still consider him a dictator who could easily sacrifice others to satisfy his own demented beliefs.  Good and evil are not always so easy to distinguish but that is another debate.  

 

 Game play and how we view things is very much an individual thing.  I might play a fanatical monk or Priest of Berath that would side with him but I was pretty disgusted the first time I saw, heard and smelled that hanging tree.   My last playthrough I almost walked away from the quest but ended up doing it simply because I needed the XP.  Not good role playing I know but my PC is a bit of a softy and doesn't like seeing people mistreated.

 

Raedric continues to terroize his people and persecute Eothasians  or perceived Eothasians.  Then he assumes he is the one responsible for the ending of the Hallowborn births.  

[Elerond]

 

 

The way I see it is that Raedric is a lunatic fanatic who will never stop his oppressive and nasty ways. 

 The ending you get for Gilded Vale if you side with him I believe proves me right.  [/size]

 

 

 

It's actually kinda annoying (and sad) that most choices are so blatantly obvious. It would've been interesting if Raedric VII turned out to be the better choice if you actually fixed the whole crisis and returned the souls. Or killed himself in grief over having done so many in over something that changed nothing. Or actually was praised as having solved the crisis and stopped being a lunatic about the whole thing.

 

And if Kolsc turned out to be a self-indulgent noble splerglord that couldn't rule effectively to save his life.

 

Actually in my opinion ending slide show that supporting Raedric is best for Gilded Vale in long run

 

Ending if you don't do take any part in the conflict between Raedric and Kolsc

 

With the birth of his Hollowborn child, the last threads of Lord Raedric's sanity frayed and broke apart, his wife the first victim of his wrath.

 

With a fortress to protect him and a garrison of loyal soldiers at his command, he continued to snuff out all signs of resistance from the citizens of Gilded Vale, real or perceived. In the end, all would hang from the boughs of the village's trees, watching over their dead town with vacant eyes.

 

As you can see things will not end well for Gilded Vale.

 

Ending if you kill Raedric and kill him again when him comes back as a deathguard

 

Lord Raedric's zeal had brought him back to life once, but it would not do so again. Raedric's destruction at your hands spelled the end of his suffocating rule over Gilded Vale and the surrounding area. In his absence, the village prospered, becoming a popular destination for new settlers anxious to leave Defiance Bay after the riots.

 

Without a nearby ruler, it also grew more wild, with many settlers moving on as soon as they'd arrived, turned off by lawlessness that was excessive even by Dyrwoodan standards. Nevertheless, despite the challenges of living there, Gilded Vale had survived, and would continue to survive for the foreseeable future.

 

This ending as you see brings Gilded Vale short time prosperity, but in long run things seems not go as well.

 

 

Ending if you kill Raedric but don't kill him again when he is returns as deathguard

 

Though you had killed Lord Raedric in his throne room, so strong was his drive to rid his land of Eothasians that he returned to life as a deathguard, a deathless crusader for his brutal cause. With the remains of his humanity stripped away, Raedric came to see all the people of Gilded Vale as worshippers of Eothas, and one day he led his forces into the village personally to see them all purged from his lands. Gilded Vale was left a hollow shell, its buildings ruined and its people slaughtered. Even travelers and would-be squatters knew better than to take refuge inside its borders.

 

Lord Raedric returned to Raedric's Hold, where he remained, keeping eternal watch over his barren domain.

 

As you can see this isn't very happy end for Gilded Vale

 

Ending if you support Raedric and kill Kolsc

 

Gilded Vale remained under the harsh rule of Lord Raedric, who reigned unopposed after the death of his cousin Kolsc. He continued to terrorize the people of Gilded Vale, looking for Eothasians in their midst.

 

But to Raedric, the sudden and unexpected end to Waidwen's Legacy came as a sign of the success and righteousness of his efforts, and in time his own people came to believe it, too. He relaxed his use of authority, no longer seeing his own people as potential threats, and Gilded Vale began to regain some of its old luster.

 

As you can see Gilded Vale is starting to eventually get back what it was before Waidwen's Legacy and there is even hope for much better future than any other endings.

[Nakia]

And the price paid?

[Elerond]

And the price paid?

Price paid in all options is high for Gilded Vale, but final option is most optimistic about future as general. Although option where you totally kill Raedric and Gilded Vale falls in anarchy isn't without optimism, as there is hope that rule of law will someday come back and it is probably best option for Eothasians and other people that Raedric hates.

[Luckmann]

Thanks a lot Elerond for filling us in on all the possible endings. But I must say that two of them are.. odd, because I see no reason why they'd be mutually exclusive. Or rather, they are mutually exclusive, but they shouldn't be. I mean.. uhm..

If you do nothing, Raedric turns out to have snapped when his wife birthed a hollowborn child, and continues to be crazy, and everyone loses.

If you kill Kolsc, things.. actually turn out pretty fine and dandy. But.. why? It's not explained in slides, apparently..? Why would that not be the result if you did nothing, too? Or vice versa?

Also, where is Kolsc in everything for ending #2? Slide #2 (from the ones you describe) makes it sound like you killed both Kolsc and Raedric.