An idea on how to make all classes combat super-fun, like the Cipher already is

[IndiraLightfoot]

Well, I have put the Cipher through its paces on Path of the Damned triple solo, and I must say, it's the best. It's skills are super-flexible, varied and they replenish via Focus (which always starts at half when combat ensues), and this Focus grows when you hit/damage your opponents, so you can always claw back and come back. You can confuse and retreat, even stop a fight entirely, and then come back at it. In comparison to all the other classes I've tried on Path of the damned: Druid, Wizard, Priest, Ranger, Fighter, as well as of the classes I've tried on easier difficulty levels in the beta, it's a class on its own - and my honest opinion:

I don't want to see it nerfed in any way or form. It's simply brilliant and so much fun to play.

 

However, what I do propose is a buff, in a way, to all other classes, in order to ensure that they are equally varied, fun and resilient/resourceful come-back-kids.

 

My proposal (not thought through in any combat mechanical detail) is that all classes (yes, even fighters and rogues), should be given a resource that gets replenished when you hit/damage opponents. It mustn't be called focus, though. It could be Mana for wizards, and Holy Power for priests, and Wrath for barbarians, well, you get the picture (and no, this is not a call for Diablo 3 in any other aspect, I promise).

 

Let's take the wizard. The spells are probably thrown and gone after like three fights, and then you have to rest or something. But on PotD, you have two camping supplies, and perhaps you don't want to build a CON beast char anyway, so I'd love to see wizards being able, during longer fights to regain some mana, and earn the power to get to throw a spell or two later. It would make for much more varied use of spells as well, both defensive and offensive, since buffing takes place during combat.

 

And how about fighters? Two knock-downs and then finito in one encounter? While Sporelings have unlimited knockdowns? Unfair! Let Fighters hit and damage a lot to work up a Zeal, which translates into one or two new opportunities to use a per-encounter skill during those long fights.

 

I could go on and on, but I really think the game would benefit from having all classes as flexible and fun as the cipher. And the fix for it is pretty straight forward.

 

Obviously, it would be cool if the expansion added more in-combat abilities for all classes, offensive and defensive, which can be slowly replenished via some Focus-like source, as some classes are a bit lacklustre and unvaried in that regard. It would be so neat.

 

What do you think?

Edited April 24, 2015 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sedrefilos]

I think resource is the best way to theat abilities in computer games (VS spent uses).

But I also like the PoE system with uses per spell level, pre encounter, per rest etc in combination with limited resting supplies. Since they decided to go this way (due to homage to the DnD systems, I suppose) I like how they've done it.

Won't complain if they change it to resource mechanics on a sequel though

 

Now, take hide because the grognard nerds will attack

[IndiraLightfoot]

I know, hehe. Right now, PoE is neither nor or rather both, and perhaps the wisest way forward is going the replenishable resource route and drop those spells per rest (Personally, they are not sacred to me).

Edited April 24, 2015 by IndiraLightfoot

[Eos]

In general I agree with you. But the attack-to-generate-resource principle doesn't quiet work out for each and every situation. What if I have/want a class that's a supporter and doesn't care much about attacking? What if I don't care about damaging attacks? What if a fight requires a lot of setup like buffs/early heals, but my Priest only has so much starting resource? Making every class rely on attacking seems to create a very limited class variety. It works well for the Cypher, because at its core the Cypher is an offensive class to which attacking comes natural. A similar resource system would probably work for classes like the Barbarian, Monk, Ranger or the likes, but turning every class into a Cypher just with a different spell list, seems like a bad design choice to me.

 

But I agree in general, that the never ending resource system of the Cypher makes it very enjoyable to play (and powerful). Like the one toy that you have own that has it all

[IndiraLightfoot]

Eos: I see what you mean. Perhaps there can be peaceful resources as well on certain classes, like Healing Power on Priests, which gets replenished the more successful buffs you have landed on your allies and such.

[transfett]

PotD triple crown solo is for the challenge, not default game mode. So please do not overdo it with suggestions that change what the game is meant to be.

[Eos]

Eos: I see what you mean. Perhaps there can be peaceful resources as well on certain classes, like Healing Power on Priests, which gets replenished the more successful buffs you have landed on your allies and such.

 

Guess that would be a thing. Fighter could have a modal for offense and defense (which he already has) which changes the way he generates his resource: i.e. the defensive one makes him generate resource on being attacked, the offensive one on attacking. Much like the Monk who works with getting wounded, or the Cypher who works with making damage, or the Chanter who needs to sing.

 

Seems like a fun, combat-oriented way to design class mechanics and gets rid of the "I don't want to cast my spells because I don't want to rest again :("-dilemma

[LeonKowalski]

I don't think the wizard is a problem really, cipher is just silly OP. The low level powers of the cipher need to be far weaker, something like a charm shouldn't be available as a fight opener to the cipher (but it should be to the wizard, the wizard should be an alpha striker ... the cipher should need long fights to get good).

 

The game needs at least one Vancian caster who with a full complement of spells rules supreme and at least one simple beatstick ... there will always be players who want to play one of those.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Leon: I see where you are coming from, but I love that OP aspect of the cipher!

And its most important spell, which can be cast before combat - tenuous grasp - 10 Focus (cheap) - I would not have made it through triple crown solo without it, since I can control most encounters with it. I can chose to escape, I can break a flank if things go south, and I can even use it to lure off enemies one by one.

 

So, basically, I wish for all classes to have that power and that resourcefulness in their arsenal - given how the game is built, I must add. For D&D, I very much prefer Vancian magic.

 

EDIT: However, I fear that nerfing is more likely, which is a bit sad, since the way the cipher sits right now is perhaps Obsidian's coolest class creation in PoE right now. I'd much rather see it as the mould for how to do something fun and varied, instead of being a target lined up before a nerfing/balancing firing squad.

Edited April 24, 2015 by IndiraLightfoot

[Tigranes]

If we're talking solo, then your proposal makes some sense. I like playing solo, but POE is first and foremost party-based. And when you have a party-based game with 6 characters all racking up focus-like resources in 6 different ways, it quickly becomes very clunky. Not to mention it actually makes the classes 'samey' in the sense that you feel like you have to do the same watch-the-number-counter with all 6 characters.

 

They sure could have made some classes better designed, but I think the idea of making all classes play differently, sometimes fundamentally differently (e.g. chanter), is a good idea, and I wouldn't want to turn Focus into the new Mana for everybody.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Tigranes: A good point. It would be a bit messy keeping track of all that. Still, I guess it could work in simpler ways for fighter classes, and perhaps be more full-on for spell slingers? Hmm.

[MReed]

Um, wouldn't be a whole lot easier to simply move to a cooldown based system?  Any mechanic that is basically based around "Damage done by your default attack" isn't all that different from "Regenerate x points / second / level", as DPS with the default attack is mostly driven by level.

 

Oh, yeah, cooldowns were what Obsidian originally proposed, and it was...  Not popular... on the forums.  For example, https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60914-merged-cooldowns-20/, eventually resulting in http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63207-update-39-non-core-classes-cooldowns-attack-resolution-damage-vs-armor-and-a-tileset/.

 

Still, if that's what you are looking for, then be honest, and ask for cooldowns.

[IndiraLightfoot]

MReed: Most naively, I didn't connect those dots. I'm not sure cooldowns are needed, though. What I really like about the cipher is the urgency - if you don't land hits, no more soup for you!

[IndiraLightfoot]

I just read this post:

 

Did anybody explain why the decision to prevent running from combat was included? Still feels like a heavy-handed way to force players to deal with a situation, and goes against the spirit of table-top/BG imo.

Probably has to do with developer time needed to implement it. Like most of the missing "basic" features that IE games had.

 

 

And then I pondered a bit over what I had just written about Tenuous Grasp for ciphers:

Leon: I see where you are coming from, but I love that OP aspect of the cipher!

And its most important spell, which can be cast before combat - tenuous grasp - 10 Focus (cheap) - I would not have made it through triple crown solo without it, since I can control most encounters with it. I can chose to escape, I can break a flank if things go south, and I can even use it to lure off enemies one by one.

 

 

And I suddenly realize this: I most likely love this character because it's one of the very few builds that more or less can move rather freely in combat, from the very start of combat to the end in short, it can ignore engagement pretty often.

Perhaps I'm not that fond of the engagement/disengagement mechanic, after all?

You learn something new every day.

 

P.S. I was actually a proponent for some kind of engagement mechanics during the beta, but perhaps not such a strong one as ended up in game, but now I'm not so very sure. it certainly needs a laxing overhaul.

Edited April 24, 2015 by IndiraLightfoot

[falchen]

I think cyphers should just not start with any focus, or at least start with much less.

[perilisk]

Well, I have put the Cipher through its paces on Path of the Damned triple solo, and I must say, it's the best. It's skills are super-flexible, varied and they replenish via Focus (which always starts at half when combat ensues), and this Focus grows when you hit/damage your opponents, so you can always claw back and come back. You can confuse and retreat, even stop a fight entirely, and then come back at it. In comparison to all the other classes I've tried on Path of the damned: Druid, Wizard, Priest, Ranger, Fighter, as well as of the classes I've tried on easier difficulty levels in the beta, it's a class on its own - and my honest opinion:

I don't want to see it nerfed in any way or form. It's simply brilliant and so much fun to play.

 

However, what I do propose is a buff, in a way, to all other classes, in order to ensure that they are equally varied, fun and resilient/resourceful come-back-kids.

 

My proposal (not thought through in any combat mechanical detail) is that all classes (yes, even fighters and rogues), should be given a resource that gets replenished when you hit/damage opponents. It mustn't be called focus, though. It could be Mana for wizards, and Holy Power for priests, and Wrath for barbarians, well, you get the picture (and no, this is not a call for Diablo 3 in any other aspect, I promise).

 

Let's take the wizard. The spells are probably thrown and gone after like three fights, and then you have to rest or something. But on PotD, you have two camping supplies, and perhaps you don't want to build a CON beast char anyway, so I'd love to see wizards being able, during longer fights to regain some mana, and earn the power to get to throw a spell or two later. It would make for much more varied use of spells as well, both defensive and offensive, since buffing takes place during combat.

 

And how about fighters? Two knock-downs and then finito in one encounter? While Sporelings have unlimited knockdowns? Unfair! Let Fighters hit and damage a lot to work up a Zeal, which translates into one or two new opportunities to use a per-encounter skill during those long fights.

 

I could go on and on, but I really think the game would benefit from having all classes as flexible and fun as the cipher. And the fix for it is pretty straight forward.

 

Obviously, it would be cool if the expansion added more in-combat abilities for all classes, offensive and defensive, which can be slowly replenished via some Focus-like source, as some classes are a bit lacklustre and unvaried in that regard. It would be so neat.

 

What do you think?

 

Off the top of my head,

Fighters - could work more like Chanters; you can swap on the fly between up to four Styles, which you create by stringing together Techniques (earned at a rate similar to phrases, no cost to use). Each technique has its own effects, but also provides benefits to follow up techniques. Every tech (or basic attack) you hit with increases a hit counter. Once your hit counter reaches a high enough amount, you can execute a Finisher (similar to invocations). Grazes do not contribute to the hit counter, it drops with misses or over time when not attacking, and being disabled (prone, paralyzed, etc.) resets it to 0.

 

Paladin - Aura. Regenerates over time. The Paladin's Aura by default provides DR (increasing with Paladin level), at the cost of depleting aura by the damage absorbed. That is, if Aura DR is 10, then when the paladin is hit for 20 points of damage, it is reduced to 10 points, and aura is depleted by 10 points. Paladin modal abilities lower Aura regen or even impose degen if several are stacked. Paladin active abilities require aura.

 

In some respects, the DT aspect acts like a secondary regenerating endurance pool. However, there are pros and cons compared to fighter regeneration -- on the one hand, it can only absorb so much from any hit; on the other hand, unlike endurance, it doesn't go to health damage, so you could just take small hits all day long without needing to rest.

 

Rogues - Initiative. A resource that encourages a guerilla style of engage, attack, escape. Rogues don't have Recovery. Instead, each point of initiative represents 0.1s of recovery. Initiative regenerates over time, but the regenerated points are not usable until Initiative hits 100%.

 

That is, if have you 100 max points of initiative, and regenerate 10 initiative per second, and have executed four attacks that each take 20 initiative, you have one such attack left (20 initiative remaining). Two seconds from now, you still have one such attack left, because the 20 points you regenerated are locked away. Eight seconds from now, you have five such attacks left, because you regenerated back to 100%. I guess a different way of looking at it is that each time you use Initiative, you add to a cooldown before Initiative is reset to 100%. Anyway, the basic goal is to allow Rogues to suppress their Recovery and burst several attacks, then eat the whole Recovery penalty when the burst is done.

 

Ranger - Rangers are unsalvagably boring. Give druids their animal companions (Animal Spirit Guide, they can merge with it for Wildshape or leave it independent for Companion). Give wizards their ranged abilities (Spellslingers with six shot gunoires or something) or maybe fighters for a non-melee alternative.

 

[IndiraLightfoot]

Yeah, rangers certainly need some pizazz, so why not some cool resource.

[b0rsuk]

Different strokes for different folks. The only way you would accomplish is making other classes attractive for people who like Cipher. There are people who like other classes because they those differ from Cipher !

 

The Cipher resource is convenient, but not my favorite part of the class. What I like the most is their spells are different mechanically. Priests, Druids and Wizards have ball area spells, cone area spells, buffs, debuffs damage. That's pretty much it, very few spells that don't fit that. Ciphers have spells that require careful positioning, or fun to use beams, or stat stealing, or single target nukes/debuffs (they are conspiciously absent from other classes). They have spells which target ally but hurt an enemy.

 

The part I agree about is that it would be fun to have unique resources for each/most melee classes. Chanter/Monk are the only melee classes that have a unique resource. But even ranger can be considered to has his own resource - his animal companion, and positioning. Flanking. Many of his powers work only as long as animal companions is up. Stunning Arrows lets them stunlock an opponent. The equivalent ability Master's Call is hilarious when you lure enemies between the ranger and his companion.

Edited April 24, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Tigranes]

MReed: Most naively, I didn't connect those dots. I'm not sure cooldowns are needed, though. What I really like about the cipher is the urgency - if you don't land hits, no more soup for you!

 

This is precisely what makes the cipher play different from everybody else. A monk has to invite hits. A barbarian has to hit many without getting hit by many. A chanter has to buy time. A cipher has to hit things. So on and so forth. I think that's the reason you can't just give this to everybody.

 

Arguably, a Fighter also needs to be pretty boring/low-maintenance because he is meant to be the crutch class for less skilled players. There's a reason Eder is the first companion. I know some people go "hurr durr game so easy stick your tank up front", but the game is meant to be more hands-free if you decide to take a fighter or two and stick them up front, because without this a lot of less skilled players will say the game becomes an impossible steamroll for the opposition. 

 

Now, what I could get behind is some redesigning of the Ranger and the Paladin - they both have designated 'different playstyle' like other classes, but these aren't very successful at all, I think. Ranger would be cool if it accentuated the stuff that, as b0rsuk describes, is already there, for example, while Paladins could potentially make more of their various auras. 

[luzarius]

Is cipher really this good?

[LeonKowalski]

Now, what I could get behind is some redesigning of the Ranger and the Paladin - they both have designated 'different playstyle' like other classes, but these aren't very successful at all, I think. Ranger would be cool if it accentuated the stuff that, as b0rsuk describes, is already there, for example, while Paladins could potentially make more of their various auras. 

 

 

If they remove animal companion fatigue it basically becomes a free summon, which would be pretty good.

 

Of course what is more likely is that they remove fatigue but make it take health damage ... which with it's atrocious defense will mean rather than being fatigued all day it will be dead all day.

[Tigranes]

 

Now, what I could get behind is some redesigning of the Ranger and the Paladin - they both have designated 'different playstyle' like other classes, but these aren't very successful at all, I think. Ranger would be cool if it accentuated the stuff that, as b0rsuk describes, is already there, for example, while Paladins could potentially make more of their various auras. 

 

 

If they remove animal companion fatigue it basically becomes a free summon, which would be pretty good.

 

Of course what is more likely is that they remove fatigue but make it take health damage ... which with it's atrocious defense will mean rather than being fatigued all day it will be dead all day.

 

 

That would make the companions even less significant, given all the summon figurines. 

[Blovski]

Well, I have put the Cipher through its paces on Path of the Damned triple solo, and I must say, it's the best. It's skills are super-flexible, varied and they replenish via Focus (which always starts at half when combat ensues), and this Focus grows when you hit/damage your opponents, so you can always claw back and come back. You can confuse and retreat, even stop a fight entirely, and then come back at it. In comparison to all the other classes I've tried on Path of the damned: Druid, Wizard, Priest, Ranger, Fighter, as well as of the classes I've tried on easier difficulty levels in the beta, it's a class on its own - and my honest opinion:

I don't want to see it nerfed in any way or form. It's simply brilliant and so much fun to play.

 

However, what I do propose is a buff, in a way, to all other classes, in order to ensure that they are equally varied, fun and resilient/resourceful come-back-kids.

 

My proposal (not thought through in any combat mechanical detail) is that all classes (yes, even fighters and rogues), should be given a resource that gets replenished when you hit/damage opponents. It mustn't be called focus, though. It could be Mana for wizards, and Holy Power for priests, and Wrath for barbarians, well, you get the picture (and no, this is not a call for Diablo 3 in any other aspect, I promise).

 

Let's take the wizard. The spells are probably thrown and gone after like three fights, and then you have to rest or something. But on PotD, you have two camping supplies, and perhaps you don't want to build a CON beast char anyway, so I'd love to see wizards being able, during longer fights to regain some mana, and earn the power to get to throw a spell or two later. It would make for much more varied use of spells as well, both defensive and offensive, since buffing takes place during combat.

 

And how about fighters? Two knock-downs and then finito in one encounter? While Sporelings have unlimited knockdowns? Unfair! Let Fighters hit and damage a lot to work up a Zeal, which translates into one or two new opportunities to use a per-encounter skill during those long fights.

 

I could go on and on, but I really think the game would benefit from having all classes as flexible and fun as the cipher. And the fix for it is pretty straight forward.

 

Obviously, it would be cool if the expansion added more in-combat abilities for all classes, offensive and defensive, which can be slowly replenished via some Focus-like source, as some classes are a bit lacklustre and unvaried in that regard. It would be so neat.

 

What do you think?

All the caster classes are kinda differentiated in their systems. I don't really think merging everyone down to the teeny-bit-overpowered Cipher model would help. Would be nice to have a spell like Wondrous Recall, though. Enemies having unlimited abilities is really a problem with the enemies more than anything.

[b0rsuk]

I don't agree all the caster classes are differentiated !! Priest and Druid are identical other than spell sets and base stats. Wizard is also using de facto identical system. Grimoire doesn't change anything. The differences between wizard and priest/druid are marginal:

 

1. You learn your spells later, because you need to find grimoires for some

2. You may not use more than 4 different spells per level per encounter. Ahahahaha !

 

Unless you are very strict about not reloading and/or playing Trials of Iron, grimoire limit is not a limit. Without extra magical items, you can only cast 4 spells per level anyway. With magical rings, please, please show me an encounter that needs 5+ different spells of a single level.

[MadDemiurg]

Tbh I think wizard's grimmoires should either be ditched or some new mechanics (like metamagic) should be introduced fro them to make sense. As for cipher being OP, he might be on low-mid levels, although he's quite squishy to compensate. At high levels, when priests and wizards have a lot more spells per day and much more powerful effects available to them. They were much more important for tough encounters in my party playthrough. Also, wait for the expansion when fireballs are per encounter at level 13 (unless Obsidian decides to completely rework the system, which I doubt) and see how's cipher OP then.

 

Personally I enjoy Vancian casters and I think they're fine apart form some gimmicky mechanics like wizards grimmoire and some spell balance problems, with only a handful of spells useful per level. As for martial classes, yes, they are low maintenance, but I don't see much wrong with having a low maintenance class. You're playing with a party of 6, 6 wizards would be a lot of clicking. I've played with 4.5 casters (I count chanter as 0.5) and that was more than enough for my liking. You have a freedom to chose how much micromanagement you want in your party and compose it accordingly. Some minor improvements for martial classes per encounter abilities are imo in order though (Rogue's high level strikes are bloody useless for instance).