Brigandine and Plate Armor Discrepancy

[CHAw]

Does anybody else think it strange that Brigandine and Plate Armor appear to have the same Recovery Penalty (50%)? I thought Josh Sawyer said at one point that Brigandine was going to have a smaller Recovery Penalty, in exchange for being less protective than Plate Armor. This would have been consistent with all of the other armor types in the game.

 

As it is, Plate Armor seems to be a somewhat superior choice compared to its closest competitors. For the same Recovery Penalty, it is 2 points better than Brigandine against most damage types, and trades one major weakness for two major strengths as compared to Brigandine's one minor weakness for one minor strength. For only an additional 5% Recovery Penalty, it is 3 points better than Mail Armor against most damage types, and again trades one major weakness for two major strengths versus Mail Armor's one major weakness for one major strength.

 

Every other armor type in the game more or less follows a pattern of 5% Recovery Penalty per point of Damage Reduction, even Robes and ordinary clothing. A couple of armor types might deviate slightly more than the others with regards to their relative strengths and weaknesses, but Plate Armor is the only one that simply breaks the pattern, and encroaches on the usefulness of Brigandine and other heavier armors in doing so.

[Atheosis]

Yeah it's definitely an issue. 

[Alweth]

It seems strange that the game would provide even more incentive than are already present in the basic game mechanics for you to have slow tanks wearing the heaviest armor possible.

[View619]

Just an issue of poor balancing among the armour types. Hopefully the dev team will give it another pass, so many things that need to be re-worked before an expansion is even considered imo.

Edited April 12, 2015 by View619

[Rapscallion]

I don't even understand the implementation of the brigandine in this game. My impression was that a brigandine is a jacket that has been filled with some kind of armour - usually leather strips and/or thin metal plates. Why is it even classed as heavy armour when it should be light at best?

[PrimeJunta]

There are many types of brigandine but it's generally much heavier than light armor (gambeson, padded or similar). There's a lot of steel in it. 

 

Inside view:

 

[Rosbjerg]

I agree that it's a bit wonky, perhaps if the Brigadine had better bonuses against corrode and elemental damage or something like that - it would be an alternative based on it's underlying bonuses.

[Emerwyn]

Brigandine offers different DRs than plate armour, even if its base DR is lower.

 

In addition, this could be similar to how Half Plate and Full Plale work in DnD. Half Plate offers less protection, but has higher penalties than Full Plate, why?

 

The answer is because a Half Plate is a bunch of plates thrown together to be somewhat protective, while Full Plates are always custom made to perfectly suit the one purchasing it. The great difference was in the price (in standard DnD a Half Plate cost 600 gold pieces and a full plate 1500 gold pieces).

[Matt516]

Brigandine is pretty much vastly inferior to Plate, yes.

 

It is known.

[Luckmann]

Brigandine is pretty much vastly inferior to Plate, yes.

 

It is known.

 

It is known.

 

There is little incentive to use anything between basic clothing and full plate armour. Brigandine is no exception.

[Mungri]

I thought padded armour seemed decent, 4 types of DR for only 20% recovery penalty.

 

I put brigadines on my archers purely for the cosmetic aspect, but padded armour would be better for them.

[gkathellar]

I thought padded armour seemed decent, 4 types of DR for only 20% recovery penalty.

Padded armor and robes are useable for particular enchants, but all things being equal, cloth (or the weirdly unique Berathian robes) is a better choice.

[Luckmann]

I thought padded armour seemed decent, 4 types of DR for only 20% recovery penalty.

 

I put brigadines on my archers purely for the cosmetic aspect, but padded armour would be better for them.

 

It's not 4 types of DR, it's 4 DR; it's also got 6 Pierce and 6 Slash, though, ignoring the elemental DR differences, which is pretty good. But you're still increasing your Action Recovery by 20% for what amounts to 3-6 DR, on a character that shouldn't even be getting hit consistently.

 

If you insist on wearing armour for some reason, there are worse options than Padded Armour, yes, but even then.. nah.

 

 

I thought padded armour seemed decent, 4 types of DR for only 20% recovery penalty.

Padded armor and robes are useable for particular enchants, but all things being equal, cloth (or the weirdly unique Berathian robes) is a better choice.

 

Oh, look, it's my favourite pet-peeve popping it's head in! Hello, Non-Clothing Robes for Incomprehensible Arbitrary Reasons, still sh*t? That's great honey, alright, take care, good bye, don't call me, I'll call you.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Luckmann

[Mungri]

They need to off tank a lot because mobs still get past 2 tanks on Potd. Need to have the archers capable of holding mobs off my casters as long as possible while the fetid caress / knockdown glyph come into effect.

 

I mean that when you look at and equip padded armour, it shows and lists 4 different DR types, there's 2 physical and 2 elemental ones on it.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Mungri

[gkathellar]

They need to off tank a lot because mobs still get past 2 tanks on Potd. Need to have the archers capable of holding mobs off my casters as long as possible while the fetid caress / knockdown glyph come into effect.

 

I mean that when you look at and equip padded armour, it shows and lists 4 different DR types, there's 2 physical and 2 elemental ones on it.

I'mma blow your mind.

 

DR is universal. Those other types are exceptions, meaning they supersede the armor's normal DR with a higher or lower number for certain damage types.

[Mungri]

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!111111ONEONEONE

[Luckmann]

To be fair though, I'm starting to think that it would probably have been better to simply list all DR types individually and left it at that. It confuses a lot of people and the fact that the exceptions are based on percentage modifiers showed as flat values obfuscates the mechanics and makes it more obtuse than it needs to be.

Just assigning flat DR/DT values on an armour-to-armour basis across all damage types would probably have been better.

[Mungri]

So those fine robes with 8 DR are actually good!

[Caerdon]

I think the problem with armour is the same as the problem with attributes: the bonuses are linear. This means that if your character values DR more than speed, the heaviest armours are always the best choice, and if they value speed more than DR, plain clothes are always the best choice. Medium armour is nothing but a poor compromise that's not really great for anyone.

 

I want to see medium armour with the best speed/DR ratio so that it becomes a great "default" choice, leaving heavy armor and no armor for those who really want to maximize their tankiness or attack rate.

 

Right now we have:

• No armour: 0 DR, 0% delay (duh!)
• Padded armour: 4 DR, 20% delay
• Leather armour: 6 DR, 30% delay
• Mail armour: 9 DR, 45% delay
• Plate armour: 12 DR, 50% delay

What I'd like to see:

• No armour: 0 DR, 0% delay
• Padded armour: 4 DR, 10% delay
• Leather armour: 6 DR, 15% delay
• Mail armour: 9 DR, 35% delay
• Plate armour: 12 DR, 50% delay

Something along those lines.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Caerdon

[gkathellar]

Not a bad idea, Caerdon.

 

That, or a return to DR/DT.

 

Or both. (<-this one)

Edited April 12, 2015 by gkathellar

[Mungri]

Id say mail armour 30%, brigadine 40%, and robes 5% on top of those suggestions.

[mrmonocle]

I'd say make con*-3% for armor recovery time where 20con==-30% rec time

[gkathellar]

Id say mail armour 30%, brigadine 40%, and robes 5% on top of those suggestions.

I dunno why we need to keep robes >_>

 

The Berathian robes really bother me on an aesthetic level, though. "Oh hai there, guys, I'm a totally incidental fluff item with wholly unique and so weird that you'll seriously consider enchanting me and using me for the whole game."

 

I'd say make con*-3% for armor recovery time where 20con==-30% rec time

What, and make aggressive tanks who depend on Con and DR viable?

 

No way. That's crazy talk, dawg. (This is sarcasm. I'm on the phone, so ... no red.)

Edited April 12, 2015 by gkathellar

[Luckmann]

I'd say make con*-3% for armor recovery time where 20con==-30% rec time

This matches up almost perfectly with my own suggestion:

 

 

 

Furthermore, given that Endurance by itself is of questionable value, it also affects the effects of wearing armour, reducing the Armour Recovery Penalty by percentage. For example, let's say a base Plate Armour has a penalty of -50%, with a fully pumped, 20 Constitution (10*3%) it would be reduced by 30%, to -35%.

 

It would make Constitution worthwhile for tanks that want to soak damage, not just avoid it. Right now the only way to an effective tank is to stack Deflection to heaven and back, and as all tanks will almost invariably be from high-Endurance classes, and low-Endurance classes doesn't get nearly enough from Endurance to compensate anyway. And high-endurance classes that intend to tank really do not need the added Endurance anyway, and are far better off with Per/Res for the added defences.

[ApesAmongUs]

In addition, this could be similar to how Half Plate and Full Plale work in DnD. Half Plate offers less protection, but has higher penalties than Full Plate, why?

Poor design.