Obsidian devs after the Limerick controversy..

[The Mist Devil]

One's freedom ends where another's begin. 

 

You cannot lack respect to someone, be a **** about it, then claim "freedom of speech" and then say that people cannot complain as well. What makes -your- right stronger than theirs?

[evensong]

Well the key reason most people don't understand why the perpetually offended found it offensive in the first place was probably primarily because it wasn't offensive at all.

I think that's the key reason.

Hee's my take on it:

 

Jokes undeniably help create cultural attitudes and cultural understanding, this one is a reflection and a product of a cultural understanding of trans* people. It falls in line with the long-standing trope of representing trans* people as "traps" (the only other variety found in popular media - until very recently - was the psychopath, think Jame Gumb in Silence of the Lambs). This is a harmful stereotype because it contributes to a culture of ignorance and transphobia, perpetually casting trans* people as weird and dangerous, defined essentially by their sheer perceived weirdness and their perceived goal of tricking straight people into ****ing them. This is part of the reason why transphobia is so common and certainly part of the reason why the attempted suicide rate for trans people is at a mind-blowing lifetime 41% (!).

 

You can disagree with this, of course, but there is a logic to the "offendedness", whether you like it or not. I don't want jokes like these gone because I am personally offended, I want them gone because they has a real detrimental effect on the lives of real human beings.

Edited April 9, 2015 by evensong

[Luckmann]

You just ask/demand that Obsidian put content in their game that they or original creator of content don't any more want to have in the game. Which means that you aren't very supportive for rights of freedom of expression which allow creator(s) to edit their work if they feel to do so.

 

Don't be ridiculous. It would never have been changed if Obsidian wasn't pressured into doing it and the person in question weren't contacted. He shouldn't even have been asked to begin with. This argument of yours would only have merit if the content creator would not have been pressured and would willingly contacted Obsidian by himself.

 

Good post, personally I have always found the characterizations " femnazi" and  " SJF " ( social justice Fascist )  offensive and completely exaggerated and unnecessary

 

People like myself support SJ initiatives, the last thing I am is some kind of bigot who should be associated with groups of people who committed genocide 

 

I have asked people to refrain from using such words but some people still use them. So I can really can identify with your logic

I've never even heard the "SJF" term. I don't find them offensive, mostly because I'm not a nincompoop walking around trying to find things to get upset over, but I do find them ignorant, since SJW crazies, vagrant Tumblrites and the Twitter lunatics are rather far from being fascists or national socialists, and I think that using these terms further dumbs them down into meaningless, contextless slurs.

 

There are specific things that defines these ideologies and social movements, and it shouldn't be used as slurs.

 

I think the term "Social Justice Warrior" is degrading enough, since it's absolutely shock-full of sarcasm, positively dripping with irony. There are more constructive and fitting labels to apply to them, rather than to tack on what can by now only be described as meaningless nonsense, such as "idiots", "lunatics" and "crazy f***s". And if we feel the need to be more colourful, that's really beyond the scope of the board and topic.

 

 

Well the key reason most people don't understand why the perpetually offended found it offensive in the first place was probably primarily because it wasn't offensive at all.

I think that's the key reason.

Hee's my take on it:

 

Jokes undeniably help create cultural attitudes and cultural understanding, this one is a reflection and a product of a cultural understanding of trans* people. It falls in line with the long-standing trope of representing trans* people as "traps" (the only other variety found in popular media - until very recently - was the psychopath, think Jame Gumb in Silence of the Lambs). This is a harmful stereotype because it contributes to a culture of ignorance and transphobia, perpetually casting trans* people as weird and dangerous, defined essentially by their sheer perceived weirdness and their perceived goal of tricking straight people into ****ing them. This is part of the reason why transphobia is so common and certainly part of the reason why the attempted suicide rate for trans people is at a mind-blowing lifetime 41% (!).

 

You can disagree with this, of course, but there is a logic to the "offendedness", whether you like it or not. I don't want jokes like these gone because I am personally offended, I want them gone because they has a real detrimental effect on the lives of real human beings.

 

Except, of course, that it doesn't do anything like that. Edited April 9, 2015 by Luckmann

[rheingold]

I don't think guys can quite understand just how offensive and demeaning it was for women scientists to have some di&**&*head representing the ESA wearing an  sexist shirt. Here's the thing guys - people in power or privilege do not get to decide if they are sexist or rascist, it's for their victims to decide.

Anything else is incredibly stupid... Picture a bunch of dumbass guys sitting around making sexist jokes - and then telling people who are upset that they don't feel a thing. Level of intellectual dishonesty and stupidy by the gamergate crowd is crazy.

[Osvir]

What's funny to me is that a lot of the people complaining don't seem to understand why 1 person made it offensive in the first place for a lot of people by giving meaning to it. There is a huge structural difference between taking offense because a game lets you kill a child and because a game makes fun of a severely maligned minority. If you don't understand that, you don't understand the issue.

Fixed.

 

http://www.orderoflaibach.com/blog/screw-you-firedorn-lightbringer

Edited April 9, 2015 by Osvir

[Badmojo]

Regarding OP, yea, honestly that came to mind when this happened as well.  This has nothing to do with being offended, this is just people/crazy/trolls getting off on making big companies bend to their will.  They just wrap themselves around the shield of social justice so they can accuse and bully people of being an -ist (racist, trasphobist..etc).  The previous generations hid behind the bible, this is just this generations version.  They find something to be "offended" about and then group together to dogpile it.  If it wasn't for this it would have been something else they would have been offended about in this game.  I am just glad to see more and more people are tired of it and calling them out on it now.  

[evensong]

Except, of course, that it doesn't do anything like that.

 

 

Awesome argument, bro.

[Badmojo]

I don't think guys can quite understand just how offensive and demeaning it was for women scientists to have some di&**&*head representing the ESA wearing an  sexist shirt. Here's the thing guys - people in power or privilege do not get to decide if they are sexist or rascist, it's for their victims to decide.

Anything else is incredibly stupid... Picture a bunch of dumbass guys sitting around making sexist jokes - and then telling people who are upset that they don't feel a thing. Level of intellectual dishonesty and stupidy by the gamergate crowd is crazy.

So, what about all the women who said it was fine and the person who complained was an idiot?  I guess those women do not count huh?

[RottenBrain]

Here's the thing guys - people in power or privilege do not get to decide if they are sexist or rascist, it's for their victims to decide.

I am offended by your Pinky avatar, as it presents tall and slim guys as bumbling idiots. As a tall and slim guy myself, being the object of ridicule my whole life ("Hey, how's the weather up there!"), I feel really hurt by the picture you've chosen. Also, my father used to hit me, lock me in the basement and play Pinky and The Brain non-stop, so there's that. Would you mind changing your avatar, as it is severely disturbing my forum browsing experience and I feel really victimized?

[Stun]

Here lies Firedina, a heroine in bed.

She once was alive, but now she's dead.

The last man she bedded, turned out a woman

And crying in shame, off a cliff she ran.

 

Here lies...Ellen, a heroine in bed,

Was once alive but now she's dead,

The last thing she bedded turned out to be a whore,

Condemend by Josh, 'cause.... DeGeneres Behavyor.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Stun

[rheingold]

"So, what about all the women who said it was fine and the person who complained was an idiot?  I guess those women do not count huh?"

Please supply me a list or number of how many women thought it was ok.

The point is that there where a number of really high profile women scientists who were horrified by the idiot in the shirt. They wrote incredibly well thought out blogs and posts pointing out why it was so offensive. The fact that some random people were ok with it is completely irrelevant.

[Legbiter]

 

What's funny to me is that a lot of the people complaining don't seem to understand why people found it offensive in the first place. There is a huge structural difference between taking offense because a game lets you kill a child and because a game makes fun of a severely maligned minority. If you don't understand that, you don't understand the issue.

 

Well the key reason most people don't understand why the perpetually offended found it offensive in the first place was probably primarily because it wasn't offensive at all.

 

I think that's the key reason.

 

It's pointless to try to logically explain this to SJW's. Their control-freakery is simply a cloak they wrap their own mental health issues and general loserdom in, not something a normie can be expected to fix. 

 

Obsidian should just next time piss in their faces and laugh and let these tumblrsexual snowflakes act as unpaid marketing interns for the game as they melt down in narcissistic fury and impotent rage. 

[Zwiebelchen]

 

What's funny to me is that a lot of the people complaining don't seem to understand why 1 person made it offensive in the first place for a lot of people by giving meaning to it. There is a huge structural difference between taking offense because a game lets you kill a child and because a game makes fun of a severely maligned minority. If you don't understand that, you don't understand the issue.

Fixed.

 

http://www.orderoflaibach.com/blog/screw-you-firedorn-lightbringer

 

 

Haha... I did read that and I just wanted to quote a comment I've found hilarious:

 

"so at first there's a joke that a group of people found offensive even though it was not directed at them, I laughed my ass off at them and wrote in support towards obsidian and you to keep it, heard it got changed, thought it was sad, read the new one, and bro, gimme a knuckle.

Instead of having an innocent story that some people found offensive (anything in this world will be offensive to somebody) you made it into a poem that directly pissed on the people instead, comedy gold my friend."

 

Truer words have never been spoken. :>

[TheisEjsing]

Please supply me a list or number of how many women thought it was ok.

 

With that you just lost any reason for anyone to take you seriously.

[rheingold]

One's freedom ends where another's begin. 

 

You cannot lack respect to someone, be a **** about it, then claim "freedom of speech" and then say that people cannot complain as well. What makes -your- right stronger than theirs?

This x1000

[RottenBrain]

there where a number of really high profile women scientists who were horrified by the idiot in the shirt

L-O-mother****in-L

[mrmonocle]

here lies monocle a hairy fat glossy bastard

the last child he abused turned out a shaved orlan

and running in disgust he was blown away by a gust

[Badmojo]

"So, what about all the women who said it was fine and the person who complained was an idiot?  I guess those women do not count huh?"

Please supply me a list or number of how many women thought it was ok.

The point is that there where a number of really high profile women scientists who were horrified by the idiot in the shirt. They wrote incredibly well thought out blogs and posts pointing out why it was so offensive. The fact that some random people were ok with it is completely irrelevant.

I am pretty sure there was some high profile women who said she was an idiot too, again, I guess THOSE voices do not matter either?  Also, she is a scientist that never contributed anything in her sad little life and probably never will after this mess.  The only thing she will be infamous for is the person who made a guy cry on national TV about a shirt.  

Edited April 9, 2015 by Badmojo

[Moira]

So what should Obsidian devs now nerf to give us something new to start threads about? (Other than Ciphers, that's called already!)

[gkathellar]

Who forced them to do anything and what gave them such force over what Obsidian or backer in question has to do what they demand/ask. It was more that they loudly expressed their opinion about thing in the game and then Obsidian and backer in question decided to edit content in the game. Obsidian has done such edits for the game many times during it development, where those changes also forced over them by backers who demanded/asked them?

 

Indeed. For all anyone in this thread knows, people higher up in Obsidian may have found the limerick just as offensive as I do (stupid, a little offensive, but mostly stupid). All of the babble about "caving to pressure, how cowardly," largely ignores the reality that entities sometimes step back from a mistake because they realize they've made a mistake.

 

 

and I think that using these terms further dumbs them down into meaningless, contextless slurs.

 

That's what they've always been, though. Mockery reserved for those you disagree with.

 

Are there crazy people associated with social justice movements? Sure. But the label "social justice warrior," has always been the hetero cis male gaming crowd's word for "people who tell us that we might have to think about the things we say and do."

 

Except, of course, that it doesn't do anything like that.

 

Just like calling things "gay" as a pejorative, right? That totally doesn't express or reinforce an existing problem. People are just reading too much into things, right? It's not your fault.

 

So, what about all the women who said it was fine and the person who complained was an idiot?  I guess those women do not count huh?

 

... plenty of women are complicit in the patriarchy, just as all men suffer under it. This is, like, foundational feminist theory. The notion that sex or gender is determinative of who gets to do or say what is sort of the problem.

 

I am offended by your Pinky avatar, as it presents tall and slim guys as bumbling idiots. As a tall and slim guy myself, being the object of ridicule my whole life ("Hey, how's the weather up there!"), I feel really hurt by the picture you've chosen. Also, my father used to hit me, lock me in the basement and play Pinky and The Brain non-stop, so there's that. Would you mind changing your avatar, as it is severely disturbing my forum browsing experience and I feel really victimized?

 

On the one hand, if that's legitimately triggering you, I'm sorry, and I strongly encourage you to seek treatment, and perhaps to employ AdBlock in this context.

 

But I'm pretty sure that since it's not triggering you, and you're not part of a group that is systematically victimized and abused by a culture that refuses to address them on their own terms, maybe stop making up dumb syllogisms to mock people who are?

[rheingold]

 

Please supply me a list or number of how many women thought it was ok.

 

With that you just lost any reason for anyone to take you seriously.

 

No you said plenty of women were ok with it. I am pointing out that plenty were not. If what you said is valid then you have to give me a percentage of women in professional fields who think it's ok as opposed to sexist. If you had bothered to do any research on this particular issue you would have found that many took great offence to it and their views not yours are what counts in this case. Because as I keep saying - it's up to the "insulted" party to decide if it's sexist or rascist.

[Luckmann]

 

Except, of course, that it doesn't do anything like that.

 

Awesome argument, bro.

 

 

See, this is the problem here. It's impossible to prove a negative. A thing isn't a thing just because you say it is. Just because you're offended does not mean that the rest of the world will bend over for you, or that that offense is even worth considering. The perpetually offended actively look for things to be offended by, often by proxy, in order to validate their pitiful existence or whatever gaping hole they are feeling where their soul should be.

 

Your issues are not for the rest of the world to have to deal with. Just because you have issues, does not mean that the world is out to get you. The level at which social justice warriors find non-issues and blow them out of proportion is not reasonable by the measurement of any thinking individual. It is comparable to a paranoid schizophrenic insisting that we help him evacuate the first floor of all buildings, or the gremlings will get him. Or someone with OCD insisting that we cover up the lightswitches in all public locales, because otherwise he'll have a problem going there.

 

It is not the world's job to cater to every single brand of crazy all at once. We deal with the default ones and the serious ones, the rest is just incalculable and unreasonable.

 

Intent and effect are at the core of all issues; the intent here is clear, it is not in question, because there was none, and the effect is incalculably insignificant to the point of not being measurable, and the claim to effect so flimsy it hardly can be substantiated by anything other than someones bruised ego and the feelings of someone that goes through life looking for reasons to be offended, defining their existence as "the other".

 

And in a way, I guess they are "the other", in that all other people have settled down with the radical idea that the vast majority of people couldn't give any less of a **** about them unless you insist on pushing yourself onto them. Which probably ties into the reason as to why they feel this incredibly urge to do exactly that, or they'd fade into the irrelevance all individuals share. Boo ho.

 

Just like calling things "gay" as a pejorative, right? That totally doesn't express or reinforce an existing problem. People are just reading too much into things, right? It's not your fault.

Exactly like that, yes. Except not sarcastic. And also the fact that I don't actually hear anyone use it as an actual pejorative, but /shrug. Either way, nope, couldn't give any less of a single f***.

 

 

So gay it ****s rainbows.

 

Edited April 9, 2015 by Luckmann

[Osvir]

One's freedom ends where another's begin. 

 

You cannot lack respect to someone, be a **** about it, then claim "freedom of speech" and then say that people cannot complain as well. What makes -your- right stronger than theirs?

 

Let me counter your question with: Does my right become more right if I am in a minority, and am I allowed to be more of a **** if I am? Does my right become more right if I also rile up people around me, who have no idea what my emotions are or who I am but they simply feel emotional because I am emotional?

 

Take Denmark's embassy in the Middle-East (Yes, I am comparing with that, if you know what I am talking about), where islamists got riled up because a Danish artists had made a painting of "He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named" (lol). Whilst marching towards the embassy, the crowd became larger and larger, and no one in the crowd had any idea what it was all about, but someone had made a painting, probably, and they were yelling and got angry and tossed **** around them and eventually they burned down the embassy... except they burned down the Norwegian embassy too (They probably didn't know which one was which so they burned down both).

 

Does that right make them more right, because they were offended by a cartoon of Mohammed, and that made it right of them to rile up thousands of people around them? What if Obsidian hadn't listened to Erika, would she be allowed to burn down Obsidian's offices and spread hate about them because of a poem?

 

I know my example is a bit extreme, but do you understand what I am saying?

Read: I think (2) fits into it.

[falchen]

Why do you all even care? I think there was nothing wrong with the limerick and wouldn't mind if it had stayed but I care even less that it was removed.

 

Complaining about it in the first place was dumb, removing it was dumb, complaining that it was removed is just as dumb. Just let it be, it doesn't matter.

Edited April 9, 2015 by falchen

[Legbiter]

For all anyone in this thread knows, people higher up in Obsidian may have found the limerick just as offensive as I do... 

 

So what? 

 

You found it "offensive"? So? That's your business.