Point of No Return with Doemenel, Crimson, Dozens

[kaeroku]

So, I just ran into this: I had activated a lot of quests around Defiance Bay and started running around turning them in. Story-wise, you are made aware of conflict between the three factions, but they don't really make it clear that you reach a point of no return wherein you side with one of them, just by completing intro quests.

 

Not only that, but how far you have to go into completing quests before you hit that point where the other factions associate you as an "outsider, aligned with the enemy" varies by faction.

 

I had actually completed all three of the prereqs for the factions at the same time, went and turned them in - in order of convenience / relative to my current location - and found out after turning the 2nd one in that they wouldn't let me advance further simply due to a mistake in the order the quests were given. No option to take it back, no option to forswear my "loyalties" to the other faction, even though I'd done exactly the same amount of work for them as this other guy I'm talking to 20 minutes later, nothing. Just, "you already work for them, you are clearly conflicted with our interests, see you later."

Complete lockout. No warning.

 

I'd revert to a previous save, but this just seems like poor design. I generally like playing opposing factions off one another, so I'd like to have the option to progress with each of them and play the infiltrator role. But more than that, if I have to commit to a side, why not tell me before it's done with? Instead of the commitment being "hey go do this for me as a favor," have it be a bit more like a gang-initiation. Have it be more than retrieving a piece of armor and getting jumped in the street for my trouble. Have it be more than stealing something from a neighbor's house. Have it be more than freaking delivering a message including some notes on how to do something you were already planning to do anyway, and getting jumped by the people trying to kill the original messenger.

None of these are acts which indicate collaboration with a faction, any of them could have been simple goodwill or easy money. None demonstrate loyalty, but all of the factions seem to think they do.

 

I want a way to make that choice more obvious to the player, to avoid putting a player in the situation I found myself in: stuck, tied to the Dozens whose ideology I do not agree with from the role-play perspective of my character, and unable to do anything about it save reload. I realize there's no huge impact on gameplay except a few sidequests, but it breaks my immersion and it steals my ability to play the game the way I'd like to.

[TrashMan]

agreed

[Exyll]

Now you know for your next playthrough. Being able to progress through all factions simultaneously makes no sense, thats what replays are for. Maybe they can add something of a disclaimer before /when giving you the initial quest in their dialog but no, dont try and make the game kidproof <aka dumbed down>. You learned something, pass it on to the rest of us and keep playing, imo.

[falchen]

I just got a quest from the dozens and they told me accepting the task will piss off the other two factions, is that what you are reffering to or do you get locked out even before that?

[Starwars]

I also got a warning before accepting a quest from the Doemenels saying that I will piss off the other factions if I accepted.

[Greensleeve]

While doing quests for the Knights of the Crucible, I too received a warning saying that if I proceed, I'll be locked out of the other factions. 

[Aramintai]

I'm not sure if it was patched, but on my playthrough I did 2 quests for the Dozens and 1 for the Kinights of the Crucible before duc's assassination, and then in act III I returned to the city and took and completed the 2nd quest for the Knights. I'd have tried doing all 3 factions quests but Doemnels were sending assassins at me so I killed the lot of them. So it seems (unless it was patched) it is possible to do all quests for all factions, but they have to be taken in a certain order.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Aramintai

[dukefx]

You can do these without being locked out, all of 'em will earn you reputation:

 

Dozens: You can get Osric's Armor.

Doemenels: You can obtain the letter and steal the gem, beat that guy up, help Merdreth, and kill the Trading Company guy.

Knights: You can get the research notes and do something about the wanted orlan hiding in the catacombs.

 

Anything further will lock you out, but they will all warn you.

[TrashMan]

Badly scripted. Makes no sense. I made no outright hostile move, but I'm locked out.

 

Just for saying "You need something fetched from a ruin? Ok, I could look into that."

I didn't even do the quest. Just talked to the guy.

Hell, that other group is still watiing for me somewhere in the forest.

 

Where are the options to double cross or switch sides?

W.E.A.K.

[Rosbjerg]

You got weapons for them to be used in a possible open revolt, I mean.... You don't see that as an obvious problem for the other factions? This is Skyrim'itis.. You can't both be grandmaster wizard, Thane of 12 cities and master thief.

 

 

Edit: although I agree it would be nice with the option to do a double cross.

[Primislas]

Problem is, I remained Hero with both the Knights and the Dozens. Yet the Knights don't "trust" me because reasons. Losing a lot of rep upon turning in the quest would've made me scratch my head, otherwise I remained completely oblivious till the hearing time. Besides, the weapons I retrieved turned out to be useless anyways. "What just happened?" all around.

[gkathellar]

Problem is, I remained Hero with both the Knights and the Dozens. Yet the Knights don't "trust" me because reasons.

 

The membership of the Knights like you! They really do. They think you're - as the kids are saying it these days - "pretty fly for a Dozens guy."

 

That doesn't mean the leadership doesn't view you as a Dozens supporter, though.

 

 

Besides, the weapons I retrieved turned out to be useless anyways.

 

The issue is that everyone knows you secured them for that particular faction. I mean, they'd probably blame you for more if you had been successful in creating Robocop, but you still killed a bunch of their dudes and took away what they thought was their best shot at the time.

[dukefx]

You got weapons for them to be used in a possible open revolt, I mean.... You don't see that as an obvious problem for the other factions? This is Skyrim'itis.. You can't both be grandmaster wizard, Thane of 12 cities and master thief.

 

 

Edit: although I agree it would be nice with the option to do a double cross.

That reminds me of Oblivion. A task for the thieves guild was to sneak into the archmage's tower and steal a staff. I was like... WTF?! I need to steal from myself?! :D

[sparklecat]

I'm not sure if it was patched, but on my playthrough I did 2 quests for the Dozens and 1 for the Kinights of the Crucible before duc's assassination, and then in act III I returned to the city and took and completed the 2nd quest for the Knights. I'd have tried doing all 3 factions quests but Doemnels were sending assassins at me so I killed the lot of them. So it seems (unless it was patched) it is possible to do all quests for all factions, but they have to be taken in a certain order.

Oh, is that who was sending assassins after me in Defiance Bay?  I was wondering.

[kaeroku]

Now you know for your next playthrough. Being able to progress through all factions simultaneously makes no sense, thats what replays are for. Maybe they can add something of a disclaimer before /when giving you the initial quest in their dialog but no, dont try and make the game kidproof <aka dumbed down>. You learned something, pass it on to the rest of us and keep playing, imo.

The issue isn't being able to progress through factions simultaneously (though, it does make sense that you would be able to play a double-agent style of character and do so. What makes everyone automatically aware of what I'm doing with everyone else? I can see it requiring certain attributes, but it's not like games haven't allowed us to do this sort of thing before.)

 

This issue is there is no indication that you are progressing with a faction in such a way which will exclude you from progressing with other factions. It doesn't even seem that way in the context of the game via role play, which is how it really SHOULD be indicated.

 

This is not something which needs to be dumbed down, and it's not a learning issue. It's a design issue... and suggesting that the "fix" is "play again and progress with another faction" just demonstrates that you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Also, you're a ****ing ****.

[kaeroku]

I just got a quest from the dozens and they told me accepting the task will piss off the other two factions, is that what you are reffering to or do you get locked out even before that?

I did not see that during my playthrough, and I was reading text fairly religiously. Maybe they patched it, or maybe for some reason I never got that prompt.

[kaeroku]

You can do these without being locked out, all of 'em will earn you reputation:

 

Dozens: You can get Osric's Armor.

Doemenels: You can obtain the letter and steal the gem, beat that guy up, help Merdreth, and kill the Trading Company guy.

Knights: You can get the research notes and do something about the wanted orlan hiding in the catacombs.

 

Anything further will lock you out, but they will all warn you.

 

See, getting Osric's Armor is what locked me out of the other two factions. This is what baffled me. Maybe it was just a bug on my end.

[dukefx]

Getting Osric's armor will unlock the faction merchant and in no way lock you out. Taking any quest from the guy at the big table will!

[Voss]

 

I'm not sure if it was patched, but on my playthrough I did 2 quests for the Dozens and 1 for the Kinights of the Crucible before duc's assassination, and then in act III I returned to the city and took and completed the 2nd quest for the Knights. I'd have tried doing all 3 factions quests but Doemnels were sending assassins at me so I killed the lot of them. So it seems (unless it was patched) it is possible to do all quests for all factions, but they have to be taken in a certain order.

Oh, is that who was sending assassins after me in Defiance Bay?  I was wondering.

 

Nope.  The assassins show up regardless of who loves you.  Or if all of them love you. 

[sparklecat]

Well who's trying to kill me, then, and why?

[Luckmann]

 

Problem is, I remained Hero with both the Knights and the Dozens. Yet the Knights don't "trust" me because reasons.

 

The membership of the Knights like you! They really do. They think you're - as the kids are saying it these days - "pretty fly for a Dozens guy."

 

That doesn't mean the leadership doesn't view you as a Dozens supporter, though.

 

This reminds me of a time when I played a character in a Warhammer 40k RPG called Rogue Trader. My character had Good Reputation [imperial Navy], and Enemy [imperial Navy]. This was completely legit, no GM-imposed mumbo-jumbo or anything, I actually started the game with both of those.

 

And the backstory was that he was an Admiral, and had served admirably for many decades (centuries?), but was involved in a major incident, the loss of an entire Battlefleet, and essentially defected afterwards, as a rather broken man. He later managed to get away through a loophole, in a way, becoming a rogue trader, and basically exempt from the laws of the Imperium.

 

So yeah, being a hero and not being a member of something or even being chased by someone isn't all that weird. It's what leads to the situation "I really like you, but...", which is actually something games should capitalize more on, narratively. If you are a hero to the Knights of the Crucible but work with the Doemenels, that's a fantastic opening for them trying to win you over, use you as a plant... or vice versa.

 

"We have the deepest respect for you, despite your dealings with the dreg of society; would you consider... helping us with something?" said the Knight.

 

"Hey, you know the Knights, right? They respect you. We should use that." said the Doemenel.

[Exoduss]

It has been told numerous time to you people who are new to real games , this is how its supposed to be , you get no warnings this is RP game you lick Dozen boots and a proper Faction thinks you are a complete scumbag and deserve your place with dozens , end of story , dont do quests for Rioters in a capital City rly guys. 

 

On a sidenote whenever you reach something this major in CRPG game ( Defiance Bay ) dont rush to do any quests , do it properly steal everything everywhere without doing any tasks to nobody and when you are done stealing you will have a slight idea of whats going on , or ofc you can do first quest you get and cry later for geting locked in with Dozens ,

and another thing imo if you are not being cautious and finding whats going on first you are no way worth to become merciless hand for doemel  

Edited April 16, 2015 by Exoduss

[Psychevore]

The thing is that it's not doing the quests that locks you out, it's accepting the quests... which seems really artificial.

 

It has been told numerous time to you people who are new to real games , this is how its supposed to be

Get over yourself. 'you people' 'real games'. Pff.

 

This is what's wrong with the RPG scene, all you guys figuring yourselfs to be some God-tier gamer for loving certain games. Especially games with ancient mechanics like dicerolls.

 

Bleh. Don't get me wrong, I love this game. But this is no more a 'real game' than Pacman.