Skill System

[Twinsen]

Can someone please explain to me the purpose of the skill system?

 

I understand the basics, meaning I understand that you can pick locks with high mechanics or you can receive extra dialogue options with high lore, but are these skills class specific? Should I focus on certain skills when I play with certain classes or should I develop all the skills simultaneously? The athletics skill for example doesn't appear to be useful beyond a certain point. If my fatigue is already reduced by 90% what's the point of developing the skill even further? My barbarian won't become stronger from athletics as far as I can tell... His health and endurance are based on his level and attributes. Or am I mistaken? The situation is similar with the rest of the skills as well. Maybe stealth and mechanics are exceptions (I suspect I will encounter more observant foes and stronger locks towards the end) but I am not sure.

 

I think from a role playing perspective a stealthy barbarian would be pretty ridiculous just like a wizard with high athletics. I have an aumaua barbarian and I have the first four companions but I have no idea how to develop their skills. So far I gave mechanics to Aloth and developed his lore. I also developed the athletics and survival skills of my barbarian. But I don't know what to do with the rest. There are only 5 skills so there aren't too many options. When I find the ranger companion I will give her stealth... but apart from that the skills of most of my companions look the same. It's quite depressing.

 

I checked the game manual for more information but its skill descriptions don't match the in-game descriptions so it wasn't particularly useful. 

 

Can someone please explain to me the skill system? I would appreciate some suggestions regarding how to develop the skills of my party members too. As I said my party contains a barbarian, a fighter, a wizard, a priest and a chanter.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Twinsen

[knownastherat]

From official guide:

 

---

SKILLS

 

While Abilities and Talents are used predominantly in combat, Skills come into play in a variety of different contexts. Skills partially determine how players can interact with the world around them. They are often used in both scripted interactions and conversations.

 

General Use

 

During any situation where a skill is checked against a challenge’s level of difficulty, the party member with the highest relevant skill is represented as the starting benchmark. If their skill outweighs the difficulty score, the player’s efforts succeed. For this reason, it’s best to have specific characters in your party to master one skill instead of steering everyone toward a jack of all trades.

 

Resource Items

 

Some items are used in different scenarios to alter how skill checks occur. The most obvious example is the use of lockpicks to complement the Mechanics skill. Other items and tools do not deplete when used.

 

Skill Advancement

 

At first level, characters have only their class’ inherent bonuses to two skills. These bonuses are always considered when calculating the character’s total skill value, but they are not counted when the character advances their skills.

 

Each level after first, the player gains 6 points to spend toward upgrading their skills. It’s worth noting that points can’t be stored for later, and that spending points might not elevate a skill to its next highest level.

 

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Skill Bonus Barbarian Chanter Cipher Druid Fighter Monk Paladin Priest Ranger Rogue Wizard

 

Stealth — — x — — x — — x x —

Athletics xx — — — x x xx x — — —

Lore — xx x x x — x xx — — xx

Mechanics — x x — — — — — — xx x

Survival x — — xx x x — — xx — —

 

----

 

The Stealth skill allows the player and/or the party to move near an NPC (non-player character) without being detected. Whether to slip by a guard unnoticed or to surround a group of enemies in order to make a sneak attack, these situations call for the use of the Stealth skill. Athletics

 

Athletics allows characters to jump, climb, swim, or run exceptionally fast. These interactions all typically occur within scripted interactions or (occasionally) conversations. Climbing walls, jumping over a chasm, or diving into a deep section of a river to investigate a glint at the bottom would all be covered by Athletics.In combat, Athletics impacts how much Fatigue a character can endure before suffering skill penalties.

 

Lore represents a character’s accumulated miscellaneous knowledge and trivia, often of occult or esoteric topics. Outside of conversations and scripted interactions, Lore is used to activate scrolls. Higher Lore values allow the character to use higher level scrolls.

 

The Mechanics skill allows the manipulation of any sort of mechanical device. From opening locks to disarming traps to changing the behavior of a complex machine, the party needs to use their Mechanics skills.

 

The Survival skill is a measure of how knowledgeable and capable a character is in wilderness settings. It can be used to identify creature tracks or remains, and create consumable items from natural ingredients.

 

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Edited April 7, 2015 by knownastherat

[falchen]

Stealth - could give everyone a point or two so you can position before a fight, but can get by fine without any points in this too, since stealth is party based one character with a lot in this isn't as usefull as enemies would just spot the rest of the party aproaching anyway.

 

Athletics - must have, lets you go longer without resting, 2 points minumum for everyone, 3-4 is optimal. There are some skill challenges (climbing, breaking walls, etc) which need more so have one character invest in this more heavilly.

 

Lore - get this on a character if you want them to be able to use scrolls, points on the main character will unlock conversation options on occasion.

 

Mechanics - another must have but only need this on one character, but get a lot for unlocking and traps, but this is also used to spot hidden treasure containers while scouting.

 

Survival - hasn't come up yet on my playthrough even though Sagani has 8 points in it, might unlock conversation options like lore does if main character has it.   

Edited April 7, 2015 by falchen

[Twinsen]

From official guide:

 

---

SKILLS

 

While Abilities and Talents are used predominantly in combat, Skills come into play in a variety of different contexts. Skills partially determine how players can interact with the world around them. They are often used in both scripted interactions and conversations.

 

General Use

 

During any situation where a skill is checked against a challenge’s level of difficulty, the party member with the highest relevant skill is represented as the starting benchmark. If their skill outweighs the difficulty score, the player’s efforts succeed. For this reason, it’s best to have specific characters in your party to master one skill instead of steering everyone toward a jack of all trades.

 

Resource Items

 

Some items are used in different scenarios to alter how skill checks occur. The most obvious example is the use of lockpicks to complement the Mechanics skill. Other items and tools do not deplete when used.

 

Skill Advancement

 

At first level, characters have only their class’ inherent bonuses to two skills. These bonuses are always considered when calculating the character’s total skill value, but they are not counted when the character advances their skills.

 

Each level after first, the player gains 6 points to spend toward upgrading their skills. It’s worth noting that points can’t be stored for later, and that spending points might not elevate a skill to its next highest level.

 

-----

 

Skill Bonus Barbarian Chanter Cipher Druid Fighter Monk Paladin Priest Ranger Rogue Wizard

 

Stealth — — x — — x — — x x —

Athletics xx — — — x x xx x — — —

Lore — xx x x x — x xx — — xx

Mechanics — x x — — — — — — xx x

Survival x — — xx x x — — xx — —

 

----

 

The Stealth skill allows the player and/or the party to move near an NPC (non-player character) without being detected. Whether to slip by a guard unnoticed or to surround a group of enemies in order to make a sneak attack, these situations call for the use of the Stealth skill. Athletics

 

Athletics allows characters to jump, climb, swim, or run exceptionally fast. These interactions all typically occur within scripted interactions or (occasionally) conversations. Climbing walls, jumping over a chasm, or diving into a deep section of a river to investigate a glint at the bottom would all be covered by Athletics.In combat, Athletics impacts how much Fatigue a character can endure before suffering skill penalties.

 

Lore represents a character’s accumulated miscellaneous knowledge and trivia, often of occult or esoteric topics. Outside of conversations and scripted interactions, Lore is used to activate scrolls. Higher Lore values allow the character to use higher level scrolls.

 

The Mechanics skill allows the manipulation of any sort of mechanical device. From opening locks to disarming traps to changing the behavior of a complex machine, the party needs to use their Mechanics skills.

 

The Survival skill is a measure of how knowledgeable and capable a character is in wilderness settings. It can be used to identify creature tracks or remains, and create consumable items from natural ingredients.

 

---------

 

Yes, thank you. I have read this before. My question was more specific than that.

[Twinsen]

Stealth - could give everyone a point or two so you can position before a fight, but can get by fine without any points in this too, since stealth is party based one character with a lot in this isn't as usefull as enemies would just spot the rest of the party aproaching anyway.

 

Athletics - must have, lets you go longer without resting, 2 points minumum for everyone, 3-4 is optimal. There are some skill challenges (climbing, breaking walls, etc) which need more so have one character invest in this more heavilly.

 

Lore - get this on a character if you want them to be able to use scrolls, points on the main character will unlock conversation options on occasion.

 

Mechanics - another must have but only need this on one character, but get a lot for unlocking and traps, but this is also used to spot hidden treasure containers while scouting.

 

Survival - hasn't come up yet on my playthrough even though Sagani has 8 points in it, might unlock conversation options like lore does if main character has it.   

 

I know these things. My problem is that only high stealth is useful for the entire party. You can use the various companions for the other skills but it doesn't matter which companion you use. Eder can have high lore, Aloth can have high athletics, etc. It is bad role playing however in my opinion to have for instance a barbarian with high lore. In other words the skill system doesn't fit organically into the game mechanics. :/

Edited April 7, 2015 by Twinsen

[Ink Blot]

 

I know these things. My problem is that only high stealth is useful for the entire party. You can use the various companions for the other skills but it doesn't metter which one. It is bad role playing however in my opinion to have for instance a barbarian with high lore. In other words the skill system doesn't fit organically into the game mechanics. :/

Why is it 'bad' roleplaying if your Barbarian has high Lore?

[Exoduss]

It doesnt seem really useful at first but :

 

I regret not maxing Stealth and Lore on my tanks they got decent lore but no stealth so when i am stealth engaging a fight my rogue and ranger has to go infront of the tanks to shoot from stealth with a pistol , meanwhile if i had my tanks with max stealth i could deliver true barrage of bullets before the fight even starts on many different targets . When i start new party i am sure to follow this rule from now on : Every characters maxes Sealth + 1 other Skill Mechanics/Lore/Athletics , Stealth+Lore on tanks ( basicly for fan of flames the OP scroll  and other not that op scrolls ) , Stealth+Athetlic/Mechanics f for pc for dialogue options i guess and stealth + survival on others 

Edited April 7, 2015 by Exoduss

[Twinsen]

 

 

I know these things. My problem is that only high stealth is useful for the entire party. You can use the various companions for the other skills but it doesn't metter which one. It is bad role playing however in my opinion to have for instance a barbarian with high lore. In other words the skill system doesn't fit organically into the game mechanics. :/

Why is it 'bad' roleplaying if your Barbarian has high Lore?

 

 

Because Barbarians train their physique not their minds. I am not saying they cannot be educated but not too educated. You can't do everything in one lifetime in real life either than how could one achieve that in this harsh fantasy world? It's not realistic at all.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Twinsen

[Twinsen]

It doesnt seem really useful at first but :

 

I regret not maxing Stealth and Lore on my tanks they got decent lore but no stealth so when i am stealth engaging a fight my rogue and ranger has to go infront of the tanks to shoot from stealth with a pistol , meanwhile if i had my tanks with max stealth i could deliver true barrage of bullets before the fight even starts on many different targets . When i start new party i am sure to follow this rule from now on : Every characters maxes Sealth + 1 other Skill Mechanics/Lore/Athletics , Stealth+Lore on tanks ( basicly for fan of flames the OP scroll  and other not that op scrolls ) , Stealth+Athetlic/Mechanics f for pc for dialogue options i guess and stealth + survival on others 

 

It must be fun but I think the developers sacrificed role playing for the flexible game mechanics at this point.

[G2Revelation]

Why would you put high lore on a Barbarian then? If it's bad for RP and immersion?

 

Does your Barbarian need to cast scrolls? Is he going to have a lot of knowledge about obscure things? 

 

I'd say "no" to all of the above in general, unless it's a very specific character concept. 

 

The only mechanical benefit is casting from scrolls and the occasional conversation addition...which fits right in with the RP of the skill. Don't need it, don't take it. 

[Aqvamare]

barbarians drink every night at the campfire and singing the lore of the world..and brawl with each other...and the winner get her.

[Twinsen]

barbarians drink every night at the campfire and singing the lore of the world..and brawl with each other...and the winner get her.

 

I am not convinced. What's the point of developing the same skills for every single character in the party when only one of them will use it during party actions? And what are the usual skills for a cipher or for a chanter? Should I make it up? (OK I know they have starting skill points which indicate their skill set.) In Baldur's Gate fighters were strong, mages were smart, priests were wise. It made sense and it was automatic. The character of Durance for example doesn't seem to be a particularly scholarly character. He's not a warrior and not a rouge either and there is no wisdom. Which skills should I develop for him then? Oh, and he has relatively high mechanics although mechanics is not one of the priest's usual skills... This makes me confused.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Twinsen

[Exoduss]

He seems pretty good at survival being there all alone in the wild blazing and waiting for watcher to come 

[Ink Blot]

You need to let go of the D&D system and roll with this one.

 

How is 'roleplay' better in D&D when the classes are strictly pigeonholed into a specific way of playing and building? In this system, if you want to roleplay a Barbarian steeped in lore and with the ability to cast some spells off of scrolls he found... you can. If you want to go with the stereotypical dumbass "Me Thonk, me crush!" barbarian... you can. That's the flexibility of this system: you can actually roleplay a character pretty much the way you want.

[Aron Times]

You seem to be stuck on traditional fantasy stereotypes, namely the big stupid fighter (barbarian) and the 98 lb. weakling mage. People are different in both real life and in fantasy, and people in professions normally thought of as intelligent can be really stupid. I've met my share of really stupid doctors, teachers, scientists as well as some really intelligent janitors, truck drivers, and handymen. The thing is, people are different, and they don't always optimize their "builds" for their "professions." Sometimes, people do what they are really horrible at because it's what they want to do. Sometimes, people forego more prestigious careers to do what they truly enjoy.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hung

[dirigible]

Conan the Barbarian was a pretty clever individual. He was good at sneaking and had thoroughly decent "lore". And he was still a Barbarian.

 

On the other hand, it's not hard to imagine a Wizard with very low lore. He spends all day in his ivory tower studying magic, and knows nothing of the outside world.

[Twinsen]

You need to let go of the D&D system and roll with this one.

 

How is 'roleplay' better in D&D when the classes are strictly pigeonholed into a specific way of playing and building? In this system, if you want to roleplay a Barbarian steeped in lore and with the ability to cast some spells off of scrolls he found... you can. If you want to go with the stereotypical dumbass "Me Thonk, me crush!" barbarian... you can. That's the flexibility of this system: you can actually roleplay a character pretty much the way you want.

 

Yes, you guys are probably right. I am stuck with the old D&D stereotypes. :D But I like to create "authentic" characters and the developers could have indicated the recommended skills in the game for each class. Now when I encounter a new character I always have to leave the game to check in the character generation which skills are recommended for that new class. The old D&D system was more comfortable for me because I usually play for the story and not for building the mathematically strongest characters like many hard core players do. Also if you think about these skills (or their equivalents) were always automatically upgraded in previous great cRPGs from Baldur's Gate through the Neverwinter Nights and the Dragon Age series to Wasteland 2.

 

Anyway this is a new game with a new system so I have to learn... The reason why I believe that the developers sacrificed the realism of the world for the flexibility of the mechanics is related to to game world's lore. I can hardly imagine a world where the different races don't mix at all but otherwise they form mixed tribes (in Eir Glanfath for instance). Tribes are social units based on kinship. How can an orlan and an elf be in the same tribe if they can't be related? The Forgotten Realms universe was far more realistic in this sense. The different races had their own nations. Also the story writers of the game ignored the lore of the world a number of times. Kana Rua for instance is from Rauatai which is an Aumaua country on the northern hemisphere. He's also an Island Aumaua who originate from the Deadfire Archipelago (a region which is located deep in the south not far from the south pole). In reality he should be Coastal Aumaua because Coastal Aumauas supposed to live in the north. Rauatai is a country dominated by Coastal Aumauas. How did Kana Rua end up in the northern Aumaua nations? It's not explained at all.

 

Thankfully at least Sagani is from the right place...

[Aron Times]

 

You need to let go of the D&D system and roll with this one.

 

How is 'roleplay' better in D&D when the classes are strictly pigeonholed into a specific way of playing and building? In this system, if you want to roleplay a Barbarian steeped in lore and with the ability to cast some spells off of scrolls he found... you can. If you want to go with the stereotypical dumbass "Me Thonk, me crush!" barbarian... you can. That's the flexibility of this system: you can actually roleplay a character pretty much the way you want.

 

Yes, you guys are probably right. I am stuck with the old D&D stereotypes. :D But I like to create "authentic" characters and the developers could have indicated the recommended skills in the game for each class. Now when I encounter a new character I always have to leave the game to check in the character generation which skills are recommended for that new class. The old D&D system was more comfortable for me because I usually play for the story and not for building the mathematically strongest characters like many hard core players do. Also if you think about these skills (or their equivalents) were always automatically upgraded in previous great cRPGs from Baldur's Gate through the Neverwinter Nights and the Dragon Age series to Wasteland 2.

 

Anyway this is a new game with a new system so I have to learn... The reason why I believe that the developers sacrificed the realism of the world for the flexibility of the mechanics is related to to game world's lore. I can hardly imagine a world where the different races don't mix at all but otherwise they form mixed tribes (in Eir Glanfath for instance). Tribes are social units based on kinship. How can an orlan and an elf be in the same tribe if they can't be related? The Forgotten Realms universe was far more realistic in this sense. The different races had their own nations. Also the story writers of the game ignored the lore of the world a number of times. Kana Rua for instance is from Rauatai which is an Aumaua country on the northern hemisphere. He's also an Island Aumaua who originate from the Deadfire Archipelago (a region which is located deep in the south not far from the south pole). In reality he should be Coastal Aumaua because Coastal Aumauas supposed to live in the north. Rauatai is a country dominated by Coastal Aumauas. How did Kana Rua end up in the northern Aumaua nations? It's not explained at all.

Thankfully at least Sagani is from the right place...

How can a dark skinned person be an American citizen if his ancestors were from Africa/India/Australia/whatever place has naturally dark skinned people? How can an ethnic Chinese person who grew up in New Jersey have kinship with an ethnic German person who also grew up in New Jersey?

 

Do you come from a country where race = nationality? Here in the USA, race has no connection with nationality. In fact, becoming an American citizen requires you to renounce all citizenship in other countries. I was born in the Philippines but for all intents and purposes here in the USA, I'm an American. My oath taking ceremony was on August 31, 2012. Some people ask me if turning my back on my country of birth was worth it, and they're usually surprised by my utter lack of regret.

 

Obsidian is an American company, and while it's not set in the USA, elements of American culture and American values seep into it in some way, including the idea that race doesn't equal nationality.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Aron Times

[Aron Times]

About Kana, if you have enough lore, or if you're Aumauan, you can point out his unusual skin color, which leads to him explaining how his parents moved to Rauatai. He's a first generation child of immigrants.

[Twinsen]

 

How can a dark skinned person be an American citizen if his ancestors were from Africa/India/Australia/whatever place has naturally dark skinned people? How can an ethnic Chinese person who grew up in New Jersey have kinship with an ethnic German person who also grew up in New Jersey?

 

Do you come from a country where race = nationality? Here in the USA, race has no connection with nationality. In fact, becoming an American citizen requires you to renounce all citizenship in other countries. I was born in the Philippines but for all intents and purposes here in the USA, I'm an American. My oath taking ceremony was on August 31, 2012. Some people ask me if turning my back on my country of birth was worth it, and they're usually surprised by my utter lack of regret.

 

Obsidian is an American company, and while it's not set in the USA, elements of American culture and American values seep into it in some way, including the idea that race doesn't equal nationality.

 

 

Well, I wouldn't have any problems if this would be a science fiction game but it's clearly stated on the collector's book that Eora is on the technological level of the real 15th century late medieval world. They travel on foot, on horses and with wagons and ships. On this technological level migration is slow and insignificant therefore social groups must be relatively homogeneous.

 

I would like to avoid analysing here the contemporary world because I believe this isn't the place for that (and the moderators would probably frown on that) but what you are describing is a relatively new and ideological phenomenon even in the US and I don't appreciate ideology in a cRPG. Even merely 20 years ago there were many homogeneous communities of European descent in America who without any conscious racist intent believed that they are the only true Americans. I am from a country where race is not an issue (because it's too racially homogeneous for that) and identity is based on ethnicity. I believe this is a more realistic view of the world. Everybody comes from somewhere. Everybody has a homeland, a place of origin. One cannot leave that behind. To describe you as an Asian would be a highly inaccurate in my opinion. Based on what you wrote I would say (and I don't mean to offend you in any way with this) that you are only legally American (because the American nation is a legal construct of diverse peoples from around the world) but in reality it would be far more accurate to describe you as a Philippine who traveled to America and who's a member of one of the many Philippine ethnic groups.

 

My problem is not that there is migration in Eora. That's the main feature of most of the fantasy worlds since even if no one else travels at least adventurers travel in these worlds extensively. Races, ethnic, religious and political groups however have an origin and if one of their members is found somewhere far from his or her homeland there must be an explanation for that. We know why Drizzt Do'Urden is on the surface. We don't know however what Kana Rua is doing on the other end of the world and that is annoying. Obviously with some background story the developers could solve this problem but as far as I can tell Kana Rua views Rauatai as his place of origin and has no connection with the Deadfire Archipelago at all.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Twinsen

[Twinsen]

About Kana, if you have enough lore, or if you're Aumauan, you can point out his unusual skin color, which leads to him explaining how his parents moved to Rauatai. He's a first generation child of immigrants.

 

Really? I did not have that conversation with him yet! If this conversation truly exists than I am totally satisfied. By the way I am a Coastal Aumaua barbarian from Rauatai. He noticed this when I first met him but he did not talk about this ever since (I just finished clearing the player stronghold and the next step will be Raedric's castle).

[falchen]

What kind of advice are you actually asking for? Like we told you what the skills do and how much you should have of each.

 

Whether having more than one character with high lore or survival depends on if you like to use consumables and scrolls on that character, athletics is usefull for everyone because of the fatigue gains and skill challenges, only one character needs mechanics, high stealth on everyone could be usefull but then you wouldn't have points for other skills so you just keep it low to average.

 

And lastly having high lore (and maybe survival) could be fun for the player character due to conversations they unlock.

[Aron Times]

Well, the idea that race doesn't equal nationality is pretty old. The Romans weren't racist, but were quite prejudiced when it came to culture. What made a Roman a Roman was his culture, education, and language. A black African who spoke Latin and had a Roman education was a real Roman, but a blond, blue-eyed German who wore funny clothes and didn't speak a word of Latin was a savage barbarian. IIRC, the Romans had a practice of holding the children of their subject cultures prisoner and raising them in their households and sending them to Roman schools so they would be proper citizens.

 

From what little I've read about the Aedyran Empire, it seems like it's a combination of Ancient Greece and Rome. Curiously, Old Vailia seems to be Ancient Rome, too, but with Ocean Folk (Africans). Both being based on Rome might explain their focus on culture over race.

 

But we've gone way off topic already...

[Twinsen]

What kind of advice are you actually asking for? Like we told you what the skills do and how much you should have of each.

 

Whether having more than one character with high lore or survival depends on if you like to use consumables and scrolls on that character, athletics is usefull for everyone because of the fatigue gains and skill challenges, only one character needs mechanics, high stealth on everyone could be usefull but then you wouldn't have points for other skills so you just keep it low to average.

 

And lastly having high lore (and maybe survival) could be fun for the player character due to conversations they unlock.

 

Oh, I got my answer already. I think I already thanked the guys above.

 

I merely think that the skill system doesn't fit organically into the game mechanics (race, class system, character histories, etc.) and I am discussing this with all those who are willing to discuss this with me. This discussion helps me to better understand the game world and to build more realistic characters which improves the game experience for me. That's all.

[Twinsen]

Well, the idea that race doesn't equal nationality is pretty old. The Romans weren't racist, but were quite prejudiced when it came to culture. What made a Roman a Roman was his culture, education, and language. A black African who spoke Latin and had a Roman education was a real Roman, but a blond, blue-eyed German who wore funny clothes and didn't speak a word of Latin was a savage barbarian. IIRC, the Romans had a practice of holding the children of their subject cultures prisoner and raising them in their households and sending them to Roman schools so they would be proper citizens.

 

From what little I've read about the Aedyran Empire, it seems like it's a combination of Ancient Greece and Rome. Curiously, Old Vailia seems to be Ancient Rome, too, but with Ocean Folk (Africans). Both being based on Rome might explain their focus on culture over race.

 

But we've gone way off topic already...

 

Yeah, the last part of our discussion is way off topic. :D But it was an interesting discussion. Maybe I will search for a forum section which allows such game world lore related discussions and start a new topic there.