Stupid faction choice in Defiance Bay!

[Sleazebag]

Are people not reading the text or what? The quest givers make it obvious that you can't side with the others afterwards. It's extremely blatant. 

 

I can't wait for someone to whine about siding with the Doemenel, doing the aggressive route on the second quest and not being able to join the other factions. "i assassinated a crucible leader, now i cant join them??? wtf???"

[nornaidel]

Are people not reading the text or what? The quest givers make it obvious that you can't side with the others afterwards. It's extremely blatant. 

 

I can't wait for someone to whine about siding with the Doemenel, doing the aggressive route on the second quest and not being able to join the other factions. "i assassinated a crucible leader, now i cant join them??? wtf???"

 

Really? This is what Wenan tells you at the Dozens HQ:

 

 

PC: "I'm looking for work."

 

Wenan: "I do have something, if you don't mind stepping on the toes of the Crucible Knights. Come to think of it, the Doemenels won't be too pleased either. They've never liked seeing someone with nicer things than them."

 

 

But I might not possess your superior reading comprehension, so please do tell me how this translates into "If you say 'yes' you can't work with any of the other factions, and also, they will magically know you accepted the job, even if you later change your mind and don't even attempt it."

 

Considering how the game handles reputation I only thought this would give me a reputation hit with either faction, not exclude me from working with them if I later decide I like them better.

[Starthief]

I'd expect the Crucible Knights to have pretty high standards.

In fact one of my minor issues with this game, like many others, is the extent that strangers are willing to trust you and bring you into their secret plots with startling ease sometimes.  "Well, foreigner, I don't know who you are, you barged into my house armed to the teeth and killed my bodyguard on the way in, you need a bath, I dislike your entire race, and I'm part of a very secretive and paranoid cult.  Here's the combination to my safe and my daughter's hand in marriage!"

[Zenicetus]

You can still enter the other groups' areas and buy from them after committing to another faction by accepting a quest, though if they wind up hating you in the course of the quest, I'm willing to wager that may not last.

 

Can we get a confirmation of how that works? Anyone know?

 

I'm also at that point where I have access to all the special faction merchants but haven't done the final commitment yet. There are still some things I'd like to buy from all of them, when I get a little more cash. It makes thematic sense that I won't have access after the final quest that locks me into a faction choice, but it would be nice to know for sure. 

 

Regarding the dialogs, I agree that it probably should have been a little more clear that accepting the second quest would be a lock-out for the other factions. I had read a little about it ahead of time -- don't remember if it was here, or on the Wiki -- so I knew it was coming and could watch for it. But it's easy to miss on a first play-through, if you're getting into the habit of accepting every quest you're offered.

 

And yes, people should read carefully, but it's also still supposed to be a fun game. A break point into branching paths like this should be more heavily flagged. Not just an off-hand comment that the other factions may not like it. In most RPG's, a choice like this would be followed by a second dialog window saying "Are you sure? Because this means you won't be able to work with the other factions," or something similar.

 

Maybe the devs and beta testers have played through this sequence so often that they didn't realize how easy it was to miss. It's also not entirely clear, by the time you can reach this decision, that all these factions are actually in direct opposition to each other. That may be another case of "assumed knowledge" that doesn't apply to those playing the game for the first time.

[Suen]

Not trusting The Dozen, I accepted the quest in order to secure the weapons and avoid a potential bloodbath. Instead I found myself stuck with the faction I was trying to sabotage.

 

Up to that point I was given the option to betray the quest giver whenever it was logic to do so. And quest givers are not omniscient, or so many more would still be alive.

 

Well, there is a certain brilliance in being casually outwitted by Wenan sending the Knights in my direction, but that point in the game is somewhat messy:

• Why I'm unable to warn the Knights about the plan to recover the weapons?
• To fail the quest, I killed the quest giver and lowered my reputation with The Dozen to "scoundrel". Even so, I still was a "close ally of the dozen" according to the Knights Commander.
• Why I can even take that quest without questions, when I openly murdered few groups from The Dozen? Someone must have seen me leave those buildings, or when I was fighting in the street. And I'm very well known. I'd expect to be told "Sorry, you are good bloke/nice lass, but I can't trust you with this delicate matter because you keep butchering my men".

Compare it to

Lord of a Barren Land, The Final Act, Blood Legacy, Sacrificial Bloodlines

: this one being so linear is a bit of an anomaly.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Suen

[olpika]

Why am I, a neutral mercenray, suiddenly personana non-grata?

What led you to believe that the crucible knights would accept in their ranks a "neutral mercenary"? They're basically the most paladinesque of the paladins.

[le Duc]

I Think I've found a solution to that pb.

Just kill the 3 mercenarys at the very entrance of the Dozen's building (without being seen by the boss)

It will low your reputation enough to pass trough the anymancy assembly with the Knights.

And the people in the Dozen's building are not hostile (their quest is still doable)

 

Sorry for my bad english

 

Vive la France!

[PhroX]

I'll just add my voice to the dislike of this. If there is to be a "lockout", it should come after these quests. There should be a massive difference between saying you'll get the weapons for the Dozens and actually giving those weapons to them.

[Luckmann]

 

Why am I, a neutral mercenray, suiddenly personana non-grata?

What led you to believe that the crucible knights would accept in their ranks a "neutral mercenary"? They're basically the most paladinesque of the paladins.

 

 

And they're not even Paladins.

 

Unfortunately.

 

;_;

[Bugged Wolf Companion]

I thought it was perfectly clear - I refused the quest from the crucible knight because he downright said - this'll make you unpopular with the 2 other factions.. The dozen said the same when I took their quest.

 

 

You even kill their patrol...

 

 

 

In political reality (which this somewhat tries to represent) if you clearly allign yourself with one group (which you did), who are opposed to others, then it's hardly a wonder that the other groups can't be seen with you.. It would hurt their own political agenda.

 

I'm seriously not getting the outrage here.

i had the same problem with the knights i wanted to join them but it was to late as i was one member of the dozen already

 

this could easily be solved by a bracket behind the dialogue which displays your alliance once choose and accept the quest

Edited April 12, 2015 by Bugged Wolf Companion

[Jojobobo]

I have to admit I got locked into the Crucible Knights when I would have rather sided with the thief house for my current character. I didn't realise they were mutually exclusive, and a lot of it seems dependent on what order you visit the various districts of Defiance Bay - which you shouldn't be punished for.

[Rosbjerg]

This could easily be solved by a bracket behind the dialogue which displays your alliance once choose and accept the quest

 

Are we so adverse to thinking for ourselves, that we need to be spoon fed and outlined the consequences of choices? What happened with just rolling with it, your character made a blunder... why does that ruin your game experience? :shrugs:

 

Of course I understand that you guys are angry with the fact that you feel cheated by the game (which is a ****ty feeling), I just don't see why you feel that way.

[Varana]

Because there is no reason why this should be a consequence of our action, and why there should not be a way to change course until after a certain point. The consequence does not follow logically (or even plausibly) from the action.

 

The game offers a lot of freedom and opportunities to do unintended stuff. Like how they thought about what to do if we slaughter everyone in the caravan in the prologue. Until now, I've found out three different ways for Calisca to die (plus getting her killed in combat or doing that myself), and there's probably more.

The contrast to this quest line is so jarring. It's not a choice and then a consequence, it's the game preventing us from completely logical actions. Like making amends with the Crucible Knights by demonstrating that we're most definitely not in league with the Dozens. Shouldn't that be possible?

Staying with that example: Wenan (not only a member of the Dozens but also the one who runs an expedition kickstarter) recruits us for an expedition. The Knights might not like that - but my character screen tells me that my standing with the Knights is "Good" or "Hero" or whatever (can check later). At that point, I was simply "Moderate" with the Dozens, i.e. I had better relations with the Knights. It stays the same after accepting and even finishing the quest! Why should I prefer one information over the other? And how should I know which one the game expects me to believe?

We get to the other party and they tell us that Knights guard the entrance to Lle a Rhemen. We proceed to kill them (the party, not the Knights).

If we return at that point, we are chums with the Knights, killed some Dozens, prevented their expedition, in fact: everything went just great for the Knights.

Why exactly is that a reason for the Knights to believe that we're not on their side? That doesn't compute.

 

It's not that consequences should always be spelt out.

It's that this particular consequence does not in any way follow from our actions - and if that happens, it would be nice to give a hint. "Dear player, we know it doesn't make any sense, but please be informed that if you do X, Y will happen."

Edited April 12, 2015 by Varana

[Zenicetus]

Are we so adverse to thinking for ourselves, that we need to be spoon fed and outlined the consequences of choices? What happened with just rolling with it, your character made a blunder... why does that ruin your game experience? :shrugs:

 

I agree with that general view of playing RPG's, but I think there is still a flaw here, related to the map layout and where and when you find these quests. It assumes a type of player who explores every new area as much as possible, dipping into quests here and there, building up a backlog of uncompleted quests. That's mostly how I play. I don't want to miss anything, and it doesn't bother me to have a bunch of different uncompleted quests to finish.

 

Others might play in a more linear or "vertical" fashion, finding a quest and running straight down that line to the end. This can even extend to clearing each individual map before moving to any others, unless it's directly tied to that one quest they're following. That can lead to ignoring the Knights and the Doemenel factions until after the branching point.

 

A good game design can handle both types of gamer. All it would have taken here, is a simple confirmation screen with an alert to the seriousness of the choice. 

[PhroX]

 

This could easily be solved by a bracket behind the dialogue which displays your alliance once choose and accept the quest

 

Are we so adverse to thinking for ourselves, that we need to be spoon fed and outlined the consequences of choices? What happened with just rolling with it, your character made a blunder... why does that ruin your game experience? :shrugs:

 

Of course I understand that you guys are angry with the fact that you feel cheated by the game (which is a ****ty feeling), I just don't see why you feel that way.

 

 

I have no problem with choices having unforeseen consequences. I have a serious problem with choices having illogical consequences. Simply agreeing to go on an expedition for the Dozens should not be enough to make you an enemy of the Knights. 

[TearsOfWar1]

Have you tried not posting spoilers in the non-spoiler forum?

 

 

That being said, while I think it'd be a bit overboard to have these very clear, artificial nonsense-lines between "member" and "not-member" highlighted by a binary dialogue choice, I do share some of the frustration. I've personally helped the Doemenels a bit, but it was all "in good faith". Yes, my character is Aggressive and don't oppose underhanded tactics, or even cruelty when warranted, but he's also rather benevolent and rather brutally honest; I've helped the Doemenels in good faith.

 

Yes, out of character, I realize that they're basically a crime syndicate, but nothing I know for sure in the game have actually cemented that at all. I helped them in Ondra's Gift because the Vailian Trading Company set me up to haul illegal goods. I then helped them in Dyrford Village because hey, Medreth recognized me as someone that knows the Doemenels and Nyfre straight-out refused to tell me what it was all about, so hey, she got a rapier through her eye-socket.

 

Pretty reasonable actions to me and my character, I think, but suddenly I'm some hardened thug in a crime syndicate? Eh.

 

This forum has a "(Spoiler Warning!)" at the end of it, so I am sure you can post spoilers on this. 

[Smorensky]

Well the way I see it, it does make sense that doing several jobs for one faction would create a problem with the other two. The explanation is in the lore. When you enter Defiance Bay the narator tells you that the city is basically a powder cag ready to blow any second. As you run around the city you find out about several prominent factions that all hold a certain measure of influence in the royal court. To make matters worse, all three factions are at odds. Add Legacy and Hollowborn on top of it and you do really have a powder cag ready to blow up as soon as someone farths...

 

So when any of the factions notice that you are having a bit too much contact with the other group, they will simply stop trusting you (or at least their leaders will). You may be a decent guy in their book, but the fact that the other group is willing to entroust you with a very important job warrants some suspicion. After all they can never be completely sure if you have a hidden agenda. And checking that information will take some time, time you don't have at that point in the game.

 

And as far as "simple fetch" quests go, think about it like this, getting weapons for someone is not a simple fetch quest... Immagine a situation where an ex cop, who is still well respected in the department, is suddenly seen brokering a weapons deal for the Italian mafia.

So he takes on the job of delivering a weapon shipment to the crime syndicate and then decides to go into the FBI building and ask them to arrange a meeting with the president...

His reputation is still good with his former colegues, so they don't arest him on the spot, but they tell him that meeting the president will have to wait untill he's clear of suspicion.

He then tells them he is willing to give them the details about the weapon shipment and that he is on their side all the way... And they thank him and say yes we understand, but you are still under investigation...

[Rosbjerg]

^ Excellent point, none of the other factions would dare openly associate themselves with someone like you, after you clearly tried to arm one of the contenders - even agreeing to.. The  Dozen's leader openly admits afterwards that he tipped off the patrol, so the Knights know that you went for the weapons. **** move, but that clearly marks you as playing favorites in a very hostile political atmosphere, even if your hand was being tipped for you.

 

That decision quite literally helped kill people on all sides, as you are throwing tinder into the fire.

[Smorensky]

Well in most cases the text is pretty explicit. The Doemenels tell you right up front that the job is both illegal and dangerous and that accepting it will prevent any further interactions with Knights and Dozens. The crucible knights are not that explicit, but they tell you, you will probably have to cross swords with other factions (and providing CK with an army of golems would defenetly put you on the Dozens' bad side, even without their views on animancy).

 

The only thing I mind about this is the fact that the main quests for all three factions are rather short. If you had to do 3 or 4 jobs instead of just 2, that would be great. As it is right now I understand why some ppl find it frustrating.

[Varana]

I think that the main issue here is the Dozens quest, which is by no means explicit.

 

Regarding your earlier post: The alternative view, though, is that the Dozens do provide you with access to the President even if they know perfectly well that you just went to their enemies and tried to betray them.

"You talked to the Dozens, now we don't trust you any more" is nice, if it weren't in complete contrast to how the Dozens continued to trust you with representing their side in front of the Duc in spite of you trying to talk to the Knights.

In my game, I went with the Dozens out of necessity and completely betrayed their interests in the animancy hearing. If anyone had paid attention, that would've come as no surprise to anyone. But since the game shoehorned me into their side and didn't let go, that was what followed.

 

Maybe the fallback access from Lady Webb should be made more accessible, or, well, Wenan could state his intentions a little bit more explicit.

[Cragnous]

From the Guide:

 

If you want to complete as many side quests as possible without choosing sides,

you can complete each of the three factions’ fi rst side quests before siding with

any one faction. So that means you can complete “Built to Last,” “Two Story

Job,” and “Rogue Knight.” However, you can complete only one of the following

side quests: “Winds of Steel,” “Changing of the Guard,” and “Bronze Beneath the

Lake.” Choosing one means you are siding with a particular faction.

[drayath]

Added my irritation too this thread too.

 

Without any reading up before hand have been doublecrossing the Domeals at ever oppertunity (accept quest, help target which usally involes murding some domeals E.g. Inital merchent quest, dyford village)

 

Accepted the second faction quest to find out what they are trying to achieve (assasignation and war), and headed over to the knights/dozens to let them know what the domeals are up to and offer to help defeat them. But unlike most other quest there seems to be no-one in either faction intrested in even talking about it. Surly someone in the factions of which hate the domeals would love details of an assasination plot and work with me to get ironclad proof to help break House Dommeal.

 

So now stuck supporting House Domeal (who think i an a Terror ), appartly even if i finish off the remaing survivors in their main house.

[Bugged Wolf Companion]

 

This could easily be solved by a bracket behind the dialogue which displays your alliance once choose and accept the quest

 

Are we so adverse to thinking for ourselves, that we need to be spoon fed and outlined the consequences of choices? What happened with just rolling with it, your character made a blunder... why does that ruin your game experience? :shrugs:

 

Of course I understand that you guys are angry with the fact that you feel cheated by the game (which is a ****ty feeling), I just don't see why you feel that way.

 

there is an expert tag that doesnt spoon fed those that dont wish to

 

in my next playthrough i will know.

 

However on my first game I planned from the beginning to join the knights, i dont know how you cant see why so many people feel upset about it. (especially on first playthrough)

[pi2repsion]

 

 

This could easily be solved by a bracket behind the dialogue which displays your alliance once choose and accept the quest

 

Are we so adverse to thinking for ourselves, that we need to be spoon fed and outlined the consequences of choices? What happened with just rolling with it, your character made a blunder... why does that ruin your game experience? :shrugs:

 

Of course I understand that you guys are angry with the fact that you feel cheated by the game (which is a ****ty feeling), I just don't see why you feel that way.

 

there is an expert tag that doesnt spoon fed those that dont wish to

 

in my next playthrough i will know.

 

However on my first game I planned from the beginning to join the knights, i dont know how you cant see why so many people feel upset about it. (especially on first playthrough)

 

So, you were spoiled enough concerning the game's story that you planned from the beginning to join a specific faction in the Defiance Bay conflict that you wouldn't hear about in-game before act 2, but not spoiled enough that you knew which steps to take... and somehow this is a problem, because you were able to take steps that prevented you from reaching your goal without warning you as you were taking them?

 

If I heard about some nice artifact or companion in the game before playing and thought it would be great to have only to discover that actions I've taken in-game preclude me from getting what I want, I don't consider that to be a problem with the game or something to be upset about, as I have no expectation that the game will confirm to my desires in such respects by handing me what I want, and I'm struggling to see what the difference is here.

 

I mean, I get that you are upset, for you say so and I have no reason to doubt you, but I'm really struggling to see why.

 

 

Leaving aside that issue, while the player may consider this joining a faction, the game is very clear that the main character is not, in fact, choosing to join any faction - the main character operates as a free agent, gets a reputation with the various factions, and it is not a question of whom he wants to join but about what they are willing to entrust him with as part of their power struggle based on his actions for them and for their opponents. This then, in the story, leads to the main character to ask those that are likeliest to grant him a favour when he desperately wants to be invited to the ducal audience.

 

To put it bluntly, if the main character (operated by the player) strongly favours one faction, the rational thing for him to do would be to support that faction, not strengthen the other factions and then wonder why his favourite faction isn't willing to trust him with the hard stuff.

[Epsilon Rose]

 

From the Guide:

 

If you want to complete as many side quests as possible without choosing sides,

you can complete each of the three factions’ fi rst side quests before siding with

any one faction. So that means you can complete “Built to Last,” “Two Story

Job,” and “Rogue Knight.” However, you can complete only one of the following

side quests: “Winds of Steel,” “Changing of the Guard,” and “Bronze Beneath the

Lake.” Choosing one means you are siding with a particular faction.

 

A) You should not have to read the manual, which is not part of the game, to find in game information that should be available in game and could very easily be made available.

B) You shouldn't have to look for spoilers to figure out a quest locks you into a faction, regardless of if those spoilers come from a forum or the game's own manual.