Willing to pay for a voice pack DLC.

[Blackthane]

I recall downloading Naruto Japanese VOs for free on the Marketplace. It was Rise of a Ninja for the 360? Well then again, that's Ubisoft behind it so... cost issues. Hmm. 

[Tigranes]

 

This is a good point. However, to play Devils advocate 2 and 3 wouldn't be an issue for a hypothetical VO DLC. Everything in the game is already written, so adding VO to it wouldn't effect the writing at all.

 

 

Would it sell enough copies to recoup the high costs? Doubtful. You couldn't exactly charge $15 for a VO DLC and you wouldn't expect the majority of your customer base to pay extra for VO. 

[Amentep]

 

I disagree, bar fights can be great fun, right until when the brain damage begins.

 

Whether you like or hate VO, here's some concrete facts to consider regarding VO and game development:

 

1) VO is expensive. Very expensive. It's a big chunk of your budget. It's not something you add on a whim.

2) VO changes your writing process. When you have VO, you need to finalise your writing early on so that you have time to process all the recordings. When you change the writing, you often don't have the $ to bring in the actors again. This means less flexibility in writing, and less ability to change your writing later on as you polish the game. This sometimes ends up with places where existing dialogue is weirdly spliced together ot mean something new, or where the writer would really like to change the scene but can't.

3) A full-VO game means less writing. Expensive VO means in some cases you had RPGs where there was a hard limit on how many words you could have in your game.

4) VO is hard to do well... and hard to just not be crap at it. There are very few games that have good VO all round. No, you can't have random people on the Internet voice your game. No, you can't have the developer's cousins do it. Even when you pay professionals and direct them, you often get barely tolerable VO - which is what you see in most games.

This is a good point. However, to play Devils advocate 2 and 3 wouldn't be an issue for a hypothetical VO DLC. Everything in the game is already written, so adding VO to it wouldn't effect the writing at all.

 

 

But it raises a problem you wouldn't have if total VO was "in" from the begining - Obs opted for a description & dialogue written presentation.  So do you continue only voicing the things being said (thus meaning the game isn't really completely voice acted) or do you add a narrator to have complete narration (which means it now has to be done in a way that meshes with each individual voice performance)

[Blackthane]

Would it sell enough copies to recoup the high costs? Doubtful. You couldn't exactly charge $15 for a VO DLC and you wouldn't expect the majority of your customer base to pay extra for VO. 

There is more than one way to handle cost. Obsidian is in the talks to franchise the IP right? If a tabletop and card game is in the works, 2 expansion packs are planned and a sequel is even being discussed, I can see this happening in a future version without passing the cost directly to the customer base. Director's Cut/GOTY with funds raised from VCs and private equity (after the PoE IP gets huge naturally)? Split financing from multiple revenues? On top of table top and card games, Obsidian can do figures, comics, sell mugs and T-shirts.

 

Obsidian didn't just score for itself with PoE. It is arguably one of Kickstarter's most successful project, giving traditional financing models a wild run for their money. PoE - and Obsidian - has brand power now and with that comes financing options.   

[Tigranes]

 

Would it sell enough copies to recoup the high costs? Doubtful. You couldn't exactly charge $15 for a VO DLC and you wouldn't expect the majority of your customer base to pay extra for VO. 

There is more than one way to handle cost. Obsidian is in the talks to franchise the IP right? If a tabletop and card game is in the works, 2 expansion packs are planned and a sequel is even being discussed, I can see this happening in a future version without passing the cost directly to the customer base. Director's Cut/GOTY with funds raised from VCs and private equity (after the PoE IP gets huge naturally)? Split financing from multiple revenues? On top of table top and card games, Obsidian can do figures, comics, sell mugs and T-shirts.

 

Obsidian didn't just score for itself with PoE. It is arguably one of Kickstarter's most successful project, giving traditional financing models a wild run for their money. PoE - and Obsidian - has brand power now and with that comes financing options.   

 

 

Let's assume for now a best-case scenario where Obsidian gets a huge amount of money from POE-related revenue. The question then becomes: would that money be well spent on providing VO? I would say, it's a huge waste of resources. And this still doesn't change the fact that VO has a negative impact on the quantity and quality of the writing, due to the way it impacts the development schedule. (And no, that bit is not solved by money, unless you throw away good money after bad and have everyone twiddle their thumbs after the game's gone near-gold to sit and record/re-record VO).

 

If Obsidian gets a big windfall through POE franchise, that money should be spent on making the gameworld bigger, polishing the game mechanics, ambient sounds and orchestral music, upgrading the engine and using more expensive middleware (Obsidian couldn't use their own proprietary Onyx engine for POE1 because it would cost too much in middleware), and so on. 

 

I would hate to see them spend time and effort selling cards, grabbing VC funding, etc. just so there could be some VO. (By the way, for a game which has sold 400-500k so far according to most estimates, you're certainly being very optimistic.)

[Duchess of Kvetch]

What I'd like to see MOST is modding tools, or at least the *next* game made more accessible to modding. That way we can leave it to the extensive international community to develop all this additional content. ^_^

[Blackthane]

. And this still doesn't change the fact that VO has a negative impact on the quantity and quality of the writing, due to the way it impacts the development schedule

 

Look at the previous posts who pointed out that Obsidian isn't limited by words count cost or changes to scripts, it just needs to fill in the gaps now for the first game. 

 

I would hate to see them spend time and effort selling cards, grabbing VC funding, etc. just so there could be some VO.

 

Further if I wasn't clear earlier, the idea of making it big via franchising isn't just for VO. Would you rather see the developers being paid a larger project/year end bonus, or would you rather give some of that pie back to the industry by hiring competent VO veterans - and thus contributing back to a support industry? 

Edited April 15, 2015 by Blackthane

[sparklecat]

 

I would hate to see them spend time and effort selling cards, grabbing VC funding, etc. just so there could be some VO.

 

Further if I wasn't clear earlier, the idea of making it big via franchising isn't just for VO. Would you rather see the developers being paid a larger project/year end bonus, or would you rather give some of that pie back to the industry by hiring competent VO veterans - and thus contributing back to a support industry? 

 

False dichotomy.

[Blackthane]

False dichotomy. 

Not to be rude? In Philosophy 101 perhaps, not in the real world of finance. 

[sparklecat]

 

False dichotomy. 

Not to be rude? In Philosophy 101 perhaps, not in the real world of finance. 

 

I'm sorry, in the "real world of finance" the only two options for your profits are writing bonus checks for developers or hiring VO?

[Blackthane]

I'm sorry, in the "real world of finance" the only two options for your profits are writing bonus checks for developers or hiring VO?

Well I'll have to quote myself on the various financing options once more. It will be messy. How about you scroll back to a previous post where I highlighted the ways finance can work? Pay attention to the methods of raising revenue, the rationale on why it is possible despite PoE's minor successful start, and how funds can then be distributed. 

 

VO costs and staff bonuses are just 2 of the things that were brought up. 

Edited April 15, 2015 by Blackthane

[Tigranes]

 

. And this still doesn't change the fact that VO has a negative impact on the quantity and quality of the writing, due to the way it impacts the development schedule

 

Look at the previous posts who pointed out that Obsidian isn't limited by words count cost or changes to scripts, it just needs to fill in the gaps now for the first game. 

 

I would hate to see them spend time and effort selling cards, grabbing VC funding, etc. just so there could be some VO.

 

Further if I wasn't clear earlier, the idea of making it big via franchising isn't just for VO. Would you rather see the developers being paid a larger project/year end bonus, or would you rather give some of that pie back to the industry by hiring competent VO veterans - and thus contributing back to a support industry? 

 

 

Right, you're talking about raising additional funding from auxiliary POE products to go back and fund POE1 VO. From a business perspective, this doesn't make sense, because adding VO onto a game you've already sold isn't profitable. You're not going to get enough sales of a 'VO DLC' to recoup costs (otherwise you wouldn't need VC funding and the like) and you're not going to make enough new people buy the game either. 

 

Does VO add so much to the game that it makes sense for a company to raise new funds with additional products, and then go back and add VO? I can't imagine how.

 

Your comparison between paying Obsidian devs big bonuses or giving money back to VO actors is very strange. The most sensible, and the most likely, thing that Obsidian can do with any profits from POE1 is reinvest in it for expansion pack and POE2. They should use any money for making more games, making those games bigger, and improving the more important parts of that game (gameplay, engine, music, etc, as I described above). It makes zero sense to suggest that either Josh Sawyer goes on a cruise to the Bahamas or you get some VO. 

[Amentep]

You know why we have false dichotomies?

 

Because if you added a third choice, they'd be false tracheotomies.

 

 

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week.  Be sure to tip your waitresses.

 

...

 

Seriously though, I think I'd rather Obsidian use any money they raise from licensing to invest back into the company in some way, instead of using that money to add full VO to a game that was never planned to have full VO.

 

EDIT: I know the topic has also broached fan-made full VO which I also think won't work, but hey if someone wants to do it and gets enough fans...why would I care?

Edited April 15, 2015 by Amentep

[illathid]

Would it sell enough copies to recoup the high costs? Doubtful. You couldn't exactly charge $15 for a VO DLC and you wouldn't expect the majority of your customer base to pay extra for VO.

Yeah, I won't dispute that. I was just commenting on the writing piece. I agree it's probably not the best idea. I'd still buy it if they did it though, probably would never activate though.

[omphaloskepsis]

A fan made voice mod makes a lot more sense to me.

 

Personally, I'd rather Obsidian spent money elsewhere.  It's an expensive resource, and not an important one (to me).  I'd much rather have deep branching dialogue.

[Blackthane]

Does VO add so much to the game that it makes sense for a company to raise new funds with additional products, and then go back and add VO? I can't imagine how.

 

Yes, that's why I mentioned Director's Cut/GOTY versions. The packages that will inevitably include expansion pack 1, and the final complete super deluxe package that will include the first game, the 2 expansion packs, the DLC voice pack... Neverwinter Nights Diamond style? Borderlands 2 GOTY? 

 

When you get an IP that is worth tens of millions, an additional 10 or 20 grand to polish up a repackaged game you take pride in doing isn't so far-fetched. I'm not suggesting they do it now, later when the IP takes off and when it is capable of generating such high sales. 

 

However, should the expansion packs and sequel go full VO, then we might not be talking 10/20 grand top ups. Assuming Obsidian retains the use of Unity engine (and thus isn't aiming for Bioware budgets of ME/DA), its budget on VA alone is still likely to balloon to 6 digit figures if the green light is given for full VO. Still we're speculating on figures, which I would be the first to admit isn't constructive to any conversation. 

 

Of course, I am aware that if the franchising doesn't take off, and thus no huge margins are achieved, then I'm with the naysayers. No $ = no VA. We have to make sure a core product succeeds first before we can think about lending a hand to secondary industries. 

 

edit: In case I wasn't explicit, I meant to say the leftover money from fund raising for the auxiliary items can be used for VO, after paying off the basic salaries to the programmers and game designers. In essence everyone can get it for free, financed by the latecomers to the party (the Director's Cut/GOTY buyers).

 

I am taking a wild pot shot here, but I believe that's how Ubisoft did it with Naruto. The Japanese VAs need to paid as well, but Ubi gave it to fans for free. For Ubi, they have a powerful IP at their side, and was just absorbing the costs of VAs by betting that cost will be recouped easily if they can convince the Naruto fans on the sidelines to buy Rise of a Ninja for the perceived quality in Japanese voice acting. I'm pretty sure they did market research for that as well.

 

How well it turned out for Ubisoft, I have no idea. They could have barely broken even with that gamble.  But that they could afford the risk suggests additional casflow lying somewhere to be used. And that's the basis of my argument that costs for professional VO isn't as expensive as some of us think. 

Edited April 15, 2015 by Blackthane

[Bryy]

 

 

Seems like it would be pretty easy to add a toggle, or write a simple mod, to disable VO. But many of us love it, along with the excellent writing... when it's well done, of course. I've found that fan enjoyment of VO can be even more subjective than toward the story writing itself, oddly.

I'll just leave this here.

 

 

Link primary sources, not secondary.

 

http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/the-little-fighting-game-that-could/1100-4587/

 

I hope the extra money raised went into staff salaries, because they're not making all that much on that budget.

 

Not my point.

 

My point is people don't know what they are talking about.

[kalel78]

my one request regarding VO.. if an NPC is voiced.. make them FULLY voiced.. dont voice it through only part of the dialogue.

 

edit:  i would also NOT be against removing VO COMPLETELY.  there used to be this thing called reading in a video game.  i like that games like this are bringing a return of that.  if you want fully voiced over characters.. there are plenty of other games that do that.. let these games be different.

Edited April 15, 2015 by kalel78

[Tigranes]

 

 

 

Let's make it simple. You're talking six-digit figures for full VO. You're talking POE1, a game which was made on ~4-5 million, has possibly earned several million in profit, profit which is meant to fund future POE games (with presumably a larger budget), and is unlikely to ever be a Naruto-style franchise in a billion years. You want them to then invest some more of that money into auxiliary products like card games, and then siphon off a huge chunk of revenue after all that bother to add VO? It is just never going to add up. 

 

The crux of the matter is this. You are saying: "here's this really expensive thing which some people think is cool but is not a core part of a game. Now let's raise money through whatever way we can, so that we can basically lose money providing this thing." 

[Blackthane]

I'll keep it simple too. If I want PoE to succeed big in order to trivialize the cost of VO, I can't be hoping for it to lose money yes? 

[Hassat Hunter]

When you get an IP that is worth tens of millions, an additional 10 or 20 grand to polish up a repackaged game you take pride in doing isn't so far-fetched. I'm not suggesting they do it now, later when the IP takes off and when it is capable of generating such high sales.

Did you like... READ this thread?

 

I think we went over how it AIN'T 10 or 20 grand only like... you know... half-a-dozen times.

 

I seriously wonder why people think OE should turn their profit into waste rather than on producing more good games for us. Would people like Blackthane also go;

"YAY, I won the lottery, I'm rich. I have a lot of cash. I'm gonna see if my papershredder can grind all this cash, what the hell else can one do with it?"

 

Also, if you find a professional modteam for voice-overs, do send them my way please. I've got a lot of complains about VO on this mod of mine, called M4-78EP. And that while using only amateurs which would do so much better according to this thread.

[Blackthane]

Actually you know what? I'm only an end consumer. If you guys want professional financial advice, get someone qualified to look through your accounts and give you proper, confidential consulting advice. 

 

I'm done with trying to formulate strategic visions without black and white figures. 

Edited April 16, 2015 by Blackthane

[Jayngo]

 

Please ignore this thread Obsidian. No offense to the OP at all, but that DLC would cost a literal fortune. VO is very expensive and not completely needed in a game like this imo.

 

Spend your resources in better ways Obsidian. Like more content, bug fixes, and a second game please.

 

How about we ignore you too? Everybody has the right to post here.

 

Lol. I was in no way trying to be hostile when I posted this. The same cannot be said for you.

 

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. The OP gave their's and I gave mine. End of story.

[luzarius]

If I wasn't so lazy, I'd take a look at the assembly-csharp.dll, but I shouldn't have to do that.

[Justin Bell]

If I wasn't so lazy, I'd take a look at the assembly-csharp.dll, but I shouldn't have to do that.

 

But if you DID, everyone would benefit